Belgian Nobility

[Al_bina]

Originally Posted by Kit

Well to me it appears to be the Order of the Starry Cross (Sternkreuzorden) which is not simply a Habsburg women order but the highest order for females within the whole Habsburg empire. Maybe Marie Astrid is not a member of the order, just as Francesca the wife of Karl is not a member because she doesn't have the 16 noble great grandparents. And that despite being the wife of the head of the whole family.

I believe you are right about the Order of the Starry Cross (Sternkreuzorden). Princess Michael wore the same order at Otto von Habsburg's funeral.

[maria-olivia]

Kit , yes It is the Order of the Starry Cross, I think only the wife of the eldest Habsbourg may wear it.
Are they pictures of daughters or daughters in law of Impress Zita wearing this decoration.
I remember the eldest daughter of Archduke Otto wore it on her wedding day . Others ??

[Kit]

Otto's daughter Gabriela is currently the Grand Mistress of the order. Francesca as the wife of the head of the house is not allowed to wear it because she doesn't have the required 16 noble great-grandparents. Before Gabriela her mother Regina was Grand Mistress and before her mother-in-law Empress Zita. The number of the members is limited and apart from a flawless family tree you can only become a member if you are appointed by the Grand Mistress. Princess Michael is definitely a member I think she was appointed by Empress Zita. There are several other noble ladies who are a member I saw them all at the funeral for Otto although I can not name them.
The requirements which have to be fulfilled are pretty strict: you have to be catholic and at least 16 noble great grand parents are required. IF you are married your husband also needs to have a flawless family tree. The members of the Starry Cross were once allowed to enter the apartments of the Empress without further consent therefore only ladies of the highest Austrian noble families were members.

[maria-olivia]

Happy to learn that the Belgian de Villenfagne family has 16 noble great parents.

Years before they were only 3 belgian Noble Families who could wear the Order of the Golden Fleece.
The Prince de Ligne (who died)
The Count de Limbourg Stirum (who died)
the Marquis d’ Andigny.
Nowadays I don’t know if their heirs are Member of the Golden Fleece ? Is there an updated List ? Thanks

[MAfan]

Originally Posted by Kit

Princess Michael is definitely a member I think she was appointed by Empress Zita.

I think she has been appointed by Archduchess Regina, and not by Empress Zita; Zita ceased to be the Grand Mistress of the order in 1951, when Archduke Otto married Regina.

Originally Posted by maria-olivia

Years before they were only 3 belgian Noble Families who could wear the Order of the Golden Fleece.
The Prince de Ligne (who died)
The Count de Limbourg Stirum (who died)
the Marquis d’ Andigny.
Nowadays I don’t know if their heirs are Member of the Golden Fleece ? Is there an updated List ? Thanks

Currently two Belgian nobles are Knights of the Goldern Fleece: the Prince of Ligne and Prince Charles Louis de Merode, both appointed in 2011. Also the Viscount de Chabot-Tramecourt, who passed away a few weeks ago, was a member of the Order; his mother was born a Princess de Ligne.
Prince Philippe, Duke of Brabant, is a Knight of the Golden Fleece as well.

In the recent past, also the 11th and 13th Princes de Ligne (Eugene and Antoine, respectively grandfather and father of Prince Michel), Count Thierry and Count Charles de Limburg-Stirum, Viscount Charles Terlinden were all Knights of the Order.

[Kit]

My mistake. Princess Michael was indeed appointed by Regina. Empress Zita became Grand Mistress when she married AD Karl in 1911 and took over from her mother-in-law AD Maria Josepha who had been Grand Mistress since Empress Elisabeth's death in1898.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Kit

Otto's daughter Gabriela is currently the Grand Mistress of the order. Francesca as the wife of the head of the house is not allowed to wear it because she doesn't have the required 16 noble great-grandparents. Before Gabriela her mother Regina was Grand Mistress and before her mother-in-law Empress Zita. The number of the members is limited and apart from a flawless family tree you can only become a member if you are appointed by the Grand Mistress. Princess Michael is definitely a member I think she was appointed by Empress Zita. There are several other noble ladies who are a member I saw them all at the funeral for Otto although I can not name them.
The requirements which have to be fulfilled are pretty strict: you have to be catholic and at least 16 noble great grand parents are required. IF you are married your husband also needs to have a flawless family tree. The members of the Starry Cross were once allowed to enter the apartments of the Empress without further consent therefore only ladies of the highest Austrian noble families were members.

Francesca is alo not the grand mastress because her parents where not married in a relgious Ceremony as her father was divorced.
I only woner why from Otto's daughter Gabriela who is also divorced bacame grand mastress and not for example her older sister Andrea who even is made an equal marriage.

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by maria-olivia

Kit , yes It is the Order of the Starry Cross, I think only the wife of the eldest Habsbourg may wear it.
Are they pictures of daughters or daughters in law of Impress Zita wearing this decoration.
I remember the eldest daughter of Archduke Otto wore it on her wedding day . Others ??

As per HRH Princess Michael of Kent

'HRH Princess Michael was awarded the Order of the Starry Cross, the ladies' equivalent of the Order of the Golden Fleece, by Her Imperial Highness the Archduchess Regina of Austria who died in 2010.'

[NGalitzine]

Is there any particular reason why younger children of Belgian monarchs no longer receive noble titles.....Prince of Liege, Count of Flanders, Count of Hainault?

[MAfan]

The three titles were abolished in 2001 by a Royal Decree of King Albert II, soon before the birth of Princess Elisabeth; basically the reason for abolishing them was that the three titles aren't linguistically neutral.

[Artemisia]

I can understand abolishing titles for being irrelevant but what does "linguistically neutral" even mean?

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Francesca is alo not the grand mastress because her parents where not married in a relgious Ceremony as her father was divorced.
I only woner why from Otto's daughter Gabriela who is also divorced bacame grand mastress and not for example her older sister Andrea who even is made an equal marriage.

I don't think Andrea Neipperg was very much interested in the position. I had once the oppurtunity to talk in private with her and got the impression that her being a HRIH who brought no dowry to the Neipperg-coffers was a difficult position within her husband's family, so she much preferred living a peaceful life as happily married lady who contentrated on rainsing her children instead of searching the limelight in any way. Just my impression, of course, but I believe she has done a great job being the center of her family. Probably Gabriela was from temperament and personal situation much better suited to become Grand Mistress.

But it must have been hurtful for Francesca that she was due to her inheritance a suitable wife for grandson of a deposed emperor Karl of Habsburg but wouldn't have been considered suitable if the family still reigned. It is a valid argument that Franchesca according to church laws is not legitimate and while Otto von Habsburg obviously was willing to bend the House rules for a marriage of his heir, he did not interfere with the rules of the order and neither did his wife. Maybe that taught Franchesca a lesson about the family she married into.

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by Artemisia

I can understand abolishing titles for being irrelevant but what does "linguistically neutral" even mean?

The maybe irrelevant in the modern day but given the history attached to some of those titles ,especially the Counts of Flanders and Hainault I too don't understand the "linguistically neutral" reason.

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

The maybe irrelevant in the modern day but given the history attached to some of those titles ,especially the Counts of Flanders and Hainault I too don't understand the "linguistically neutral" reason.

I agree with you that the titles have rich history. I was just trying to find a logic behind the abolishment - and the one reason why, in my opinion, nobility titles can be abolished in our times is the fact they have little relevance nowadays.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Artemisia

I agree with you that the titles have rich history. I was just trying to find a logic behind the abolishment - and the one reason why, in my opinion, nobility titles can be abolished in our times is the fact they have little relevance nowadays.

But it's not as if the actually reigning family of Belgium had inherited these titles from their ancestors. So using this titles today would mean to point to the fact that today's kingdom of Belgium was formed from two very diverse parts of the historical landscape - something neither the king nor the government would want.

[maria-olivia]

Yes they inherited this titles from their ancestors who were Princes and King's children.
Short before the birth of Princess Elisabeth,Prince Philippe said that the baby will wear no title ( she was a Girl.)
Before : 1. Comte de Hainaut (soon abolished ), 2. Duc de Brabant , 3 Comte de Flandres, Prince de Liège (as the Comte de Flandres was still living)
It is known that Princess Marie José was sad she had to title et had wished to be Princess of Congo......

[Vizier]

I know that Belgium is one of the last countries where not just new titles, but new hereditary ones are created. Does anyone know if Albert has taken the opportunity to create a final batch of them before he steps down from the throne? You'd think there are people he'd want to recognize.

[Al_bina]

I doubt that King Albert will begin showering some people with hereditary titles. Why would he be in hurry "to create a final batch of them before he steps down from the throne"? If the titles are scheduled to be bestowed upon worthy individuals, King Albert will do it.

[MAfan]

He actually did a few days ago, as he conferred the title of Baron to judge Chris Van Den Wyngaert, quantum physicist François Englert and businessman Rudi Thomaes. But I think that their titles aren't hereditary.

[maria-olivia]

As every year for the national Day . I suppose King Philippe will continue in 2014.