Princess Madeleine and Family Moving to London: May 2015


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
I don't think that the plan was to move to London from the beginning. I believe that Madde wanted to give it a try in Sweden and Chris followed suit, but the reality was beyond what Chris could tolerate. Otherwise they would have registered in the UK from the beginning. Its not difficult to find space to live, especially with family around. No, I think that Madde was homesick after NY with a small child and wanted her family around. It didn't work out and now they are finally moving to the UK. Now its not Chris who will commute but Madde. Chris might be happier now but I think it will be hard on Madde, London and Stockholm are not far apart compared to NY still its difficult to travel with two small children. Her mother and sister are not around the corner, the cousins don't grow up together. And she faces the old question: is Madde a Princess or Mrs O'Neill, same thing as when living in NY. And there are lots of paparazzi in London....

At least now we can assume that Chris will not participate unless he shows up.


Anyway according to Swedish law, Leonore and her future brother/sister will still have to be "raised in Sweden" if Madeleine wants them to remain in the line of succession. If CP has children of his own in the future, removing Madeleine's children from the succession won't be a big deal, but, still, I don't know how Madeleine feels about denying her kids one of their birth rights to accomodate Chris' wishes.
 
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The thing is... If he wanted to have a more private life and they never intended to live in Sweden... In my opinion, they should have refused titles for their children.

Thoughts?


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I was surprised about the HRH + Dukedom for Leonore tbh. Either they should have made her a Countess like in the Netherlands or let her be a Miss like in Norway and only the children of the direct heir are allowed to carry the HRH and a Dukedom. Taking it back would be awkward now. So yes they shouldn't have done that with the whole title imo.
 
I was surprised about the HRH + Dukedom for Leonore tbh. Either they should have made her a Countess like in the Netherlands or let her be a Miss like in Norway and only the children of the direct heir are allowed to carry the HRH and a Dukedom. Taking it back would be awkward now. So yes they shouldn't have done that with the whole title imo.

As far as I understand, under the Instrument of Government of 1975, the King of Sweden has lost the power to create new counts or barons, which are the ordinary titles of hereditary nobility in Sweden.

"Duke" in Sweden is a personal (i.e non-hereditary) title that is reserved to "princes of the Royal House", which I interpret to mean "any legitimate descendant of the King who is not removed from the line of succession". In fact, see Rangkrona – Wikipedia, there is no difference in Swedish heraldy between a duke's crown and a prince's crown (other than the Crown Prince's crown, which is slightly different).

Of course, at some point, it will be necessary to limit who is a "prince of the Royal House", or otherwise after two generations or so, there will be dozens of princes/princesses of Sweden around. Unlike in the Netherlands though, there is no law regulating who can be given an HRH style and/or a territorial dukedom based on proximity of blood to the sovereign or the heir apparent.
 
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Anyway according to Swedish law, Leonore and her future brother/sister will still have to be "raised in Sweden" if Madeleine wants them to remain in the line of succession. If CP has children of his own in the future, removing Madeleine's children from the succession won't be a big deal, but, still, I don't know how Madeleine feels about denying her kids one of their birth rights to accomodate Chris' wishes.

I think perhaps these two did not think everything through thoroughly and objectively before they got married. Or perhaps Chris did raise all these legitimate concerns and Madeleine dismissed them with starry-eyed lovey-doveyness and assurances that love would conquer all. And Chris fell for it. Even the smartest men can be beguiled by a pretty woman who knows how to use her feminine wiles to get what she wants. Perhaps Madeleine assumed that Chris would change his tune, because she is a Princess, after all, and assumed her Princessy interests and wants would just automatically prevail...which leads me to the last sentence of the quoted post.

If it is indeed the case that Madeleine considers her children are being denied one of their birth rights to accommodate Chris' "wishes", then their relationship could indeed be in deep trouble. They are his children, too, and he may not have much regard for royal birth rights of this sort and I don't think Chris wanting to live in London - or anywhere else outside Sweden - is just a "wish"; I think it is more a "need", and non-negotiable. I suspect Chris considers his independence and the ability to control his own life to be very important to him, and living in Sweden, where he doesn't want to live anyway, would put him under impossible pressure to sacrifice his interests to those of his wife's family. I don't think that's going to happen, and I don't think it's fair of Madeleine to expect him to do that. If that means divorce is inevitable, so be it.
 
I think perhaps these two did not think everything through thoroughly and objectively before they got married. Or perhaps Chris did raise all these legitimate concerns and Madeleine dismissed them with starry-eyed lovey-doveyness and assurances that love would conquer all. And Chris fell for it. Even the smartest men can be beguiled by a pretty woman who knows how to use her feminine wiles to get what she wants. Perhaps Madeleine assumed that Chris would change his tune, because she is a Princess, after all, and assumed her Princessy interests and wants would just automatically prevail...which leads me to the last sentence of the quoted post.

If it is indeed the case that Madeleine considers her children are being denied one of their birth rights to accommodate Chris' "wishes", then their relationship could indeed be in deep trouble. They are his children, too, and he may not have much regard for royal birth rights of this sort and I don't think Chris wanting to live in London - or anywhere else outside Sweden - is just a "wish"; I think it is more a "need", and non-negotiable. I suspect Chris considers his independence and the ability to control his own life to be very important to him, and living in Sweden, where he doesn't want to live anyway, would put him under impossible pressure to sacrifice his interests to those of his wife's family. I don't think that's going to happen, and I don't think it's fair of Madeleine to expect him to do that. If that means divorce is inevitable, so be it.

To be frank, as I said, I don't know if her children's royal status (or lack thereof) is an issue for Madeleine or not, but, even if it is not, there might still be other dividing issues between Chris and his wife regarding their moving to London. For example, how does Madeleine herself feel about giving up her "princess life" to settle for a middle-class life as Mrs O'Neill? Apparently, she got upset very quickly in New York. It won't necessarily be different in London even if she is closer to Sweden and can show up at a greater number of "royal events" back home.

I don't want to speculate, but it should be clear to any observer that Chris is not comfortable with the idea of being part of a "royal family" and the (public) obligations that come with it.
 
Princess Madeleine and Chris O'Neill have my full support (although they doesn't need it).

They were living in the US. People and the press criticized them.

They went to live in Sweden. People and the press kept on criticizing them.

Let they move to London and be happy. People and the press will criticizing them anyway. It's a no win situation.

The only potential problem I see with they moving to London will be regarding their children's succession rights. That's something they'll have to think about in a few years (although I think Chris couldn't care less about his children being able or not to inherit the Swedish Throne).
 
I doubt Maddie is concerned at all about succession rights for her kids...afterall PCP has been with Sophia for 6 years now, and she probably knew they were headed to the altar, well before she married Chris...her children will come after PCP's and no reason to assume he won't have any. If she were concerned about succession rights she wouldn't of married an American who is more likely to give allegiance to his faith before giving it to a Protestant monarchy.


LaRae
 
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Well, I'm sure Muhler, the poster, will clarify the situation as soon as possible. Let's wait.

And, in fact, Chris is not from America. He is anglo-american. He was born in London and raised there. He also lived and studied in Switzerland, Austria and Germany. For what I know, he only went to live in the US when he started university.

You must of cross posted with Muhler.

I thought Chris was from the US and then moved/came back...got it backwards! Ok his mother is American? I thought he had an American parent?
 
As far as I understand, under the Instrument of Government of 1975, the King of Sweden has lost the power to create new counts or barons, which are the ordinary titles of hereditary nobility in Sweden.

"Duke" in Sweden is a personal (i.e non-hereditary) title that is reserved to "princes of the Royal House", which I interpret to mean "any legitimate descendant of the King who is not removed from the line of succession". In fact, see Rangkrona – Wikipedia, there is no difference in Swedish heraldy between a duke's crown and a prince's crown (other than the Crown Prince's crown, which is slightly different).

Of course, at some point, it will be necessary to limit who is a "prince of the Royal House", or otherwise after two generations or so, there will be dozens of princes/princesses of Sweden around. Unlike in the Netherlands though, there is no law regulating who can be given an HRH style and/or a territorial dukedom based on proximity of blood to the sovereign or the heir apparent.

Ak okay, I didn't know that. I thought about the uncles of the King, but they were granted titles by the GDss of Luxembourg and not the King, so forget what I said :)

I really would prefer it too if they streamline the family. Who knows how many more children Madde will have and how many Sofia in future.

Thanks for the infos :)
 
I thought Chris was from the US and then moved/came back...got it backwards! Ok his mother is American? I thought he had an American parent?

His father is from the US. His mother is from Austria.
 
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His father is from the US. His mother is from Austria.

He was born in London, hence holds dual UK/US citizenship. Since he was born before 1983, his mother's Austrian citizenship didn't entitle him to citizenship by descent so he doesn't have that, too.
 
He was born in London, hence holds dual UK/US citizenship. Since he was born before 1983, his mother's Austrian citizenship didn't entitle him to citizenship by descent so he doesn't have that, too.

I know he has dual citizenship. But thank you for sharing the interesting fact about the lack Austrian citizenship.
 
Chris is his own man. It is hard concept for him and the RF to come to terms. I am sure he'd be happier in NY. He loves his wife and daughter and future child, and wants then to be happy to. Who know what he and Madeleine discussed before they were married and how things might have changed. And, how is trying to accommodate her. He doesn't want a title and I think has little use for all the pomp and circumstance. They (Mr. and Mrs. O'Neill) will have to comes to terms with that. Perhaps, if Victoria had another child, they would be free.
 
Chris is his own man. It is hard concept for him and the RF to come to terms. I am sure he'd be happier in NY. He loves his wife and daughter and future child, and wants then to be happy to. Who know what he and Madeleine discussed before they were married and how things might have changed. And, how is trying to accommodate her. He doesn't want a title and I think has little use for all the pomp and circumstance. They (Mr. and Mrs. O'Neill) will have to comes to terms with that. Perhaps, if Victoria had another child, they would be free.

Absolutely agree. People forget how much his life has changed. 3-4 years ago, he was Chris, the banker from NY. Now he is Chris, the family man with a wife, daughter and soon-to-be newborn who are Swedish royals. His life is now exposed. I feel so sorry for him. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see he does not like the limelight, pomp and ceremony. If he did, he would have accepted a royal title, and everything that goes with it.

The Swedish media have been truly unfair to him. I hope they move to London soon, for the sake of his sanity and their marriage.
 
I really like this couple and want them to make it in the long haul, but this discussion does not feel encouraging.:sad:

Shortly after the wedding there was an article in the Swedish press confirming that Chris never took the step of obtaining a dispensation to be married outside the Catholic Church(like Queen Maxima did)which he is required to do by Canon Law if he married a Protestant. Otherwise, in the eyes of the Catholic Church Chris is not technically married to Madeleine at all, only living with her.

So if the marriage fails he won't even need to approach the Holy See for an annulment.

Maybe he was looking ahead after all.:cool:
 
Maybe the best thing would be for Madeleine to get a job working in London, it would look like she is at least trying to earn her own living and give her a good reason not to be seen doing official duties all the time. She could still attend important high profile royal events in Sweden. Part of the problem I think is that Chris and Maddie are SO different in their role in the RF.

According to the royal family policy a HRH and member of the royal family can't work full-time.
 
:previous: In a nutshell that is correct. Chris was quite open about not becoming a "Royal", accepting no HRH or title. However, the press have tried to treat him like he is and he has not complied. The end result has been an almost constant barrage of negative press.

To be honest, I don't think Chris had any idea about Royalty, let alone the Swedish Royal Family. On the other hand, it has been so much a total part of Madeleine's life that she probably never gave it a thought either.

Then comes the Royal Family itself. The King had no reason to expect that Madeleine would be treated any differently in the press than his own sisters had been. He was, of course, vastly mistaken, and neither he nor the Palace PR have come to grips with the reality of the situation, resulting in an endless stream of disastrous PR fumbles.

Meanwhile Chris is still trying to do his job, Madeleine is pregnant and trying to raise Leonor, and the whole time the media is creating unrelenting pressure. Decamping to London sooner rather than later seems the logical thing to do.
 
Absolutely agree. People forget how much his life has changed. 3-4 years ago, he was Chris, the banker from NY. Now he is Chris, the family man with a wife, daughter and soon-to-be newborn who are Swedish royals. His life is now exposed. I feel so sorry for him. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see he does not like the limelight, pomp and ceremony. If he did, he would have accepted a royal title, and everything that goes with it.

The Swedish media have been truly unfair to him. I hope they move to London soon, for the sake of his sanity and their marriage.


I agree marriage and raising a family is hard enough for anyone throw in a royal family and press out for blood (or a good front page ) It must be really hard to handle.
I too hope they go to London and can have some peace to raise their family


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I think London is NY 2.0 with all its problems. For Chris its fine, he will not be expected to attend any royal events anymore. Madeleine is still a princess and wants to remain one, so she will jet in for high profile events and get critizised again for it, as she shuns the bread and butter events. The Swedes don't love her for this attitude, pick and chose. In 4 years time, she will move back to Sweden to raise Leonore and the sibling there?

Question: can a child just be removed from the line of succession? Or is this only something that can happen when the kid turns 18?

I don't think the problems of this couple will go away with a move to London they just shift back to Maddie. She was obviously unhappy in NY and I guess she will be unhappy in London for the same obvious reasons (torn between Mrs O Neill & Princess Madeleine with all its perks, family is not around the corner, no job compared to childhood in NY, lots of paps around, the City of London, like NYC, is not exactly child-friendly, etc etc)
 
I think London is NY 2.0 with all its problems. For Chris its fine, he will not be expected to attend any royal events anymore. Madeleine is still a princess and wants to remain one, so she will jet in for high profile events and get critizised again for it, as she shuns the bread and butter events. The Swedes don't love her for this attitude, pick and chose. In 4 years time, she will move back to Sweden to raise Leonore and the sibling there?

Question: can a child just be removed from the line of succession? Or is this only something that can happen when the kid turns 18?

I don't think the problems of this couple will go away with a move to London they just shift back to Maddie. She was obviously unhappy in NY and I guess she will be unhappy in London for the same obvious reasons (torn between Mrs O Neill & Princess Madeleine with all its perks, family is not around the corner, no job compared to childhood in NY, lots of paps around, the City of London, like NYC, is not exactly child-friendly, etc etc)

I agree with this.

About the article in Svensk Damtidning:
The chief editor Karin Lennmor to Aftonbladet
- We have written that Chris O'Neill is depressed by information we have received. It may be that the word depressed is incorrect and that it used a little sloppy.
- We have had a dialogue with the court and I do not think there will be a legal deal out of this, says Lennmor.
Do you still stand behind the article?
- Yes.
Hovet rasar mot tidningsuppgifter _ Prinsbröllopet _ Nyheter _ Aftonbladet

Karin Lennmor to Expressen:
- If depression is expression for a state of one's health, it is wrong, we have no evidence of that. We believe that he is low, out of sorts. The word choice is the only thing I regret. But also to hang on the word depressed, I think it is hair-splitting.
She doesn't regret of the publication of the article and she believes that the court's irritation is associated with that Chris O'Neill and Princess Madeleine's planned relocation to England was revealed this week.
Karin Lennmor believes that the matter is investigated.
- Margareta Thorgren and I have had a discussion about it, just as we have every week, she says.
But Margareta Thorgren says, that the court shall engage lawyers on the article.
- I have no feeling that they will go ahead with this.
Hovet ilsket efter ryktena om Chris _ Nyheter _ Expressen
Translation
 
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I really like this couple and want them to make it in the long haul, but this discussion does not feel encouraging.:sad:

Shortly after the wedding there was an article in the Swedish press confirming that Chris never took the step of obtaining a dispensation to be married outside the Catholic Church(like Queen Maxima did)which he is required to do by Canon Law if he married a Protestant. Otherwise, in the eyes of the Catholic Church Chris is not technically married to Madeleine at all, only living with her.

So if the marriage fails he won't even need to approach the Holy See for an annulment.

Maybe he was looking ahead after all.:cool:

However, under the eyes of the law, he is married. Just because he didn't apply for a dispensation does not provide any evidence that he isn't committed to Madeleine, or looking ahead.
 
Princess Madeleine and Chris are preparing their new accommodation in London. Among the neighbors are billionaires, diplomats and noble people - and security is rigorous.
- There is diplomatic police outside certain buildings. They are incredibly discrete, says a broker in the district of Belgravia.
When the head of one of the most exclusive brokerage firms in the district is told about the Swedish princess's relocation plans, he is not surprised.
- It is one of the most exclusive addresses in the world, actually, no doubt, he says.
According to the broker, who did not want to reveal any names on the firm's own clients, it's high status to live in the neighborhood. He mentions billionaires, foreign royalty and A-list celebrities as potential bidders.
De blir Chris och Maddes grannar _ Nyheter _ Expressen
Translation
 
London seems like a pretty good compromise to me. Chris will be on his own turf and away from the formal influence of the Swedish RF, and can live the sort of life he wants for himself and his family. And when they are in England they will essentially be the O'Neill family even if Madeleine did not take Chris' surname when they married. (I wonder how they are known in London? Would they be Chris and Madeleine O'Neill? Chris O'Neill and Madeleine Bernadotte? Chris O'Neill and Princess Madeleine?)

England is a country that has a Royal Family so she'd be living in a country where being royal makes a difference. Maybe that would be of some comfort to her; I don't know, maybe it would make it worse. Anyway, they'd still be living in Europe and be only a short plane trip away from Madeleine's family and royal obligations.

As to the succession, Article 4 of the Swedish Act of Succession says that princes and princesses of the Royal House shall be brought up within the Realm. It seems clear and unambiguous. I don't know how they're going to get around that. They might be hoping that Victoria & Daniel have another child and that Carl Philip and Sofia start breeding like rabbits as soon as they're married, so that by the time Leonore starts school she will be down to at least 7th or even 8th in the line and the heat will be off them. But their children will still be princes and/or princesses of the Royal House, so I don't know where that leaves the family.
 
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Princess Madeleine and Chris are preparing their new accommodation in London. Among the neighbors are billionaires, diplomats and noble people - and security is rigorous.
- There is diplomatic police outside certain buildings. They are incredibly discrete, says a broker in the district of Belgravia.
When the head of one of the most exclusive brokerage firms in the district is told about the Swedish princess's relocation plans, he is not surprised.
- It is one of the most exclusive addresses in the world, actually, no doubt, he says.
According to the broker, who did not want to reveal any names on the firm's own clients, it's high status to live in the neighborhood. He mentions billionaires, foreign royalty and A-list celebrities as potential bidders.
De blir Chris och Maddes grannar _ Nyheter _ Expressen
Translation

Its one of the most expensive areas in London not doubt but at the same time its a ghetto of rich people and security. Its not an environment where I would want my kids to grow up.
I am surprised that they dont buy a mansion outside London where it is much nicer and suitable for families with lots of green spaces for the family to enjoy. Most of the city bankers live outside London with their families and commute into the city, its not a question of money (London is expensive within and without) but of life quality.
 
I have gone back to some older posts in this trend and there is a clear pattern of horrible royal PR.

A lot of people complain about the British being too tight-lipped but its clear that the Swedish are sharing too much. I think they should have a policy on what they do or do not respond to. They also need to firmly define Chris's position within the family. A couple in a "similar" position with a young family is the Cambridges in the UK and the media may not like it but its been made clear that for now they are not full-time working royals & have been firm about it.

There should be some middle ground between the British & Swedish PR systems. The British share too little and the Swedish overshare.
 
here are my thoughts
1. re the move to England- It was already announced back in December that their stay in Stockholm would only be temporary until they find some other place to live....so its no surprise really

''
Princess Madeleine and Christopher O'Neill leave New York

Princess Madeleine and Christopher O'Neill have left their rented apartment in New York. They intend to find new accommodation in Europe.

Where is not yet decided, and the family is in no hurry with this decision. In the current situation, they will will be based in Stockholm.
''

http://www.kungahuset.se/press/pres...lllamnarnewyork.5.524ff71f149ce803a48d5b.html

2. Re the succession of Princess Leonore and baby no2
The Marshal of the Realm had said after the cabinet meeting during which the king announced Leonore's names, that she'd have to be living in Sweden by the time shes 6, so that gives them till about 2020 to decide where they want to live + whats best for their children

3. I think the court the did right thing re legal action, its one thing to write about ones watch, or spotify list, or car and its a completely different thing to claim some one is depressed which is a serious condition
 
I really like this couple and want them to make it in the long haul, but this discussion does not feel encouraging.:sad:

Shortly after the wedding there was an article in the Swedish press confirming that Chris never took the step of obtaining a dispensation to be married outside the Catholic Church(like Queen Maxima did)which he is required to do by Canon Law if he married a Protestant. Otherwise, in the eyes of the Catholic Church Chris is not technically married to Madeleine at all, only living with her.

So if the marriage fails he won't even need to approach the Holy See for an annulment.

Maybe he was looking ahead after all.:cool:

Would the marriage fail (I don't hope so but I had bad feelings about the couple's future), Chris would still have to go to the diocese where he is living and ask for a declaration of nullity. If he really didn't ask for a dispensation, the nullity process wouldn't take that long and would be automatic.

He could also want to reinforce his wedding and ask for a sanatio in radice, i.e. a validation post wedding of a wedding one or both the spouses believed to be valid but which in reality was not.
 
However, under the eyes of the law, he is married. Just because he didn't apply for a dispensation does not provide any evidence that he isn't committed to Madeleine, or looking ahead.

I agree that he is 100% committed to Madde and is married to her by law. But in the eyes of the Catholic Faith that he still professes he is not, and I just find it curious that he has not taken steps to remedy that.

Or maybe he did when he visited the Pope, and it was done privately as others have pointed out.
 
I think folks are making a lot of assumptions about how seriously Chris takes his Catholicism. A lot of Catholics don't much care about the more arcane aspects of Catholic law and wouldn't worry about it.


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I think folks are making a lot of assumptions about how seriously Chris takes his Catholicism. A lot of Catholics don't much care about the more arcane aspects of Catholic law and wouldn't worry about it.


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We don't know that he didn't get dispensation...unless there was some announcement about it I missed??


There are plenty of Catholics in name only...however most of those don't care about meeting the pope ..so he must have some seriousness about his faith.


LaRae
 
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