William and Kate: engagement and relationship rumours and musings 2009

[Incas]

Now who's using whom? If Anna Wintour encouraged Kate to work in NY, the assumption would be working for Vogue where Ms Wintour is the editor-in-chief. She's already been given the dubious credit for the Meryl Streep character in The Deveil Wears Prada. In the age of no publicity is bad publicity, having a prince's GF working on her magazine would generate tons of free p.r. for Vogue. After a couple month, the welcome mat would be pulled from under Kate.

 

[Duchess]

I've lived on both sides of the Atlantic, so I feel like I have a pretty healthy grasp on the vagaries of the English class system and its prejudices. My comment wasn't about the unique issues of a commoner dating a royal, though -- it was about the presumption that any relationship between a royal and a commoner must be based on social angling and power hunger rather than love. I just reject the idea that the Middletons must be social climbers because their daughter's longtime boyfriend is an heir to the throne, and I also reject the idea that William would be able to be hoodwinked by these people for half a decade if that were the case (and I think it's not).

I know that you're one who would prefer the traditions of royalty to stay that way, Menarue, and that's totally fine. I'm just saying that I don't know that we can depict the relationship between William and Kate in the same terms that we would have depicted the same relationship even fifty years ago. We're in a post-Diana/Charles/Camilla world now when it comes to royal relationships, and most of the traditional mores of royal marriage don't work anymore.

excellent post. there are a lot of people that think that a person from an aristocratic or wealthy background couldn't possibly love a person from a lower class or financial means. to assume that the middleton's are social climbers is completely unfair. i think if that were the case william would have seen through it by now and the relationship would have ended ages ago.

 

[Al_bina]

... [snipped] I don't want to be the "bad guy" here,but seriously now,is there anyone on the forum that thinks Kate is gonna be a "career-girl"?

Joining "the bad boy club", I am inclined to think that Miss Middleton is more likely to pursue traditional roles assigned to women. Women, who wish to make careers, strive to find good places of employment and do not ask for flexible schedules to accommodate their special needs. It takes years to create a name in the fashion industry as well photography. She may get an initial boost due to her high-profile relationships. However ... Anne Leibovitz she is not. I also do not see her designing clothes. Has anyone got some proof of her artistic work?

I tend to doubt it, too -- wasn't a US move rumored for Kate a year or so ago? Or am I remembering incorrectly?

If the report has got some grains of truth in it, I hope that Prince William let Miss Middleton go on with her life.

 

[Elspeth]

Actually this is usually the case but it is not often that a commoner of lower middle-class would even dream of becoming the Queen of England, usually the person has been quite satisfied to be the mistress of the royal involved, it has happened over and over again. In the time of Charles II, admittedly many years ago, there was even snobbishness among the mistresses of noble birth and common.

Things are different nowadays, though. Crown princes around the world are marrying commoners. In the thought-provoking article that Vanesa wrote for TRA, she pointed out that it isn't really just that girls from the middle class are looking to marry princes, but that these days princes, many of whom have mothers from the middle class (I know that doesn't apply to William, of course), are looking to marry girls from the middle class because in their tastes and cultural interests they're more middle class themselves.

It is a a little difficult, I believe, in many cases for people from the US to actually understand how the relationship between royalty and the people works in Britain. Perhaps it will change in these modern times, but I don´t believe it is going to change that quickly unless it becomes a Republic
and if BRF does bring itself to the same level as their people then it will be a republic.

I'm not sure it's that quick a change. Throughout the 20th century there have been examples of British royals marrying non-royals, and in the second half of the century those non-royals have become more and more non-royal until you get to people like Antony Armstrong-Jones, Mark Phillips, and Sarah Ferguson, who have fairly tenuous links to the aristocracy, and then Sophie Rhys-Jones who is solidly middle class. Add to that the disaster of Charles's first marriage, along with the fact that William has been encouraged to mix with "ordinary" people and has tastes that are more in line with them than Charles's ever were, and it's not really surprising.

It does bring into play the thought that when royals are no different from the rest of us, there may be no good reason to continue to have them, but on the other hand it might make royalty more acceptable if it's seen to be more inclusive.

 

[Mermaid1962]

I don't think that there anything more "ordinary" than to fall in love with a person that was met at university. It's certainly not like William met Kate at a singles' bar (on the one hand) or at a court function (on the other hand). He met an ordinary girl (in the best sense of the word) under very normal circumstances.

William has been encouraged to mix with "ordinary" people and has tastes that are more in line with them than Charles's ever were, and it's not really surprising.

 

[Elspeth]

William was encouraged to have a more normal university existence than Charles or the Duke of Windsor. It sounds as though Charles was encouraged to stick with some carefully chosen companions, and the Duke of Windsor was pretty much isolated altogether. From what I've read about Charles's time at Cambridge, it wasn't an environment where the future Princess of Wales would have come from unless she happened to be someone he also knew socially.

Of course, it was somewhat easier for William since he wasn't the heir, but I'm not sure how much difference that would have made in practice.

 

[Menarue]

I think that everyone has very good points but I just want to remind you that Anthony Armstrong-Jones was close to the aristocracy because of his mother and did mix in those circles. Mark Philips did too, but mainly because of his being an Army Officer and, of course, horses. Sarah Ferguson is a distant cousin of the royal family as is Sophie. They definitely didn´t have as far to climb as Miss Middleton or her family would have to.
I agree that Britain is changing, no doubt the royal family will change. They have already lost that "mystique" that they used to have only a generation or two ago, we saw how the Queen was bullied by the people in the case of Diana.
No doubt Britain is changing and it depends on your point of view whether you think it is for good or for bad.

 

[muriel]

Not that it really matters in my mind, but I don't think Sophie's background could really be called middle class. So in terms of "They definitely didn´t have as far to climb as Miss Middleton or her family would have to", I don't think that is probably quite right.

 

[Elspeth]

I think that everyone has very good points but I just want to remind you that Anthony Armstrong-Jones was close to the aristocracy because of his mother and did mix in those circles. Mark Philips did too, but mainly because of his being an Army Officer and, of course, horses. Sarah Ferguson is a distant cousin of the royal family as is Sophie. They definitely didn´t have as far to climb as Miss Middleton or her family would have to.

Yes, but that's part of the point - the change has been gradual over time. It was considered quite bold when George V and the government decided that his children, including his heir, could marry daughters of the nobility rather than foreign royals (even though one of Queen Victoria's daughters had already married into the Scottish nobility). We've seen the pool of potential royal spouses get gradually larger and larger, to encompass daughters of the gentry rather than the nobility (Sarah Ferguson and Katharine Worsley), upper-class but not really aristocratic men (Armstrong-Jones and Mark Phillips), and then genuinely middle-class brides (Sophie Rhys-Jones, whose relationship to the royals is pretty much academic if you look at her immediate family, and I suppose Birgitte van Deurs would also be in this category). This gradual move from German princesses to the daughter of a salesman who just happens to be a cousin n times removed from her husband will probably make it more acceptable for someone like Kate to join the royal family without it causing a great deal of questioning about what happens to the royals when their spouses are from perfectly ordinary backgrounds. It may be less traumatic than in countries where non-royal spouses more or less resulted in royals having to give up their royalness and become Count of This or That, and now you've got realtors and TV anchors becoming crown princesses just a generation or two later.

 

[Skydragon]

I don't think that there anything more "ordinary" than to fall in love with a person that was met at university. It's certainly not like William met Kate at a singles' bar (on the one hand) or at a court function (on the other hand). He met an ordinary girl (in the best sense of the word) under very normal circumstances.

Apart from anything else, who would have him? Most aristocratic families would not subject their daughters to the inevitable scrutiny of the media and public, IMO. There don't seem to be that many foreign princesses to choose from (religion, age, interests).

So if not the daughter of a millionaire, who it would appear loves him enough to endure all that, who would want a relationship with him? Take away the Prince title and what have you got.... a balding 20 something, from a dysfunctional family, (hundreds of those about)!

 

[muriel]

Apart from anything else, who would have him? Most aristocratic families would not subject their daughters to the inevitable scrutiny of the media and public, IMO. There don't seem to be that many foreign princesses to choose from (religion, age, interests).

So if not the daughter of a millionaire, who it would appear loves him enough to endure all that, who would want a relationship with him? Take away the Prince title and what have you got.... a balding 20 something, from a dysfunctional family, (hundreds of those about)!

Well put!

 

[MARG]

. . . . . who would want a relationship with him? Take away the Prince title and what have you got.... a balding 20 something, from a dysfunctional family, (hundreds of those about)!

Ouch! Don't you think that's a little harsh? I mean, well, err . . . . there's always the money, right?
On second thoughts, no! Smack on on target yet again Sky.

 

[Menarue]

[

I agree so we may get a Queen Kate after all if you put it that way, but in the meantime what about the BRF?
I once read that King George V´s biographer said that apart from the short time he had in the navy the rest of his life was spent shooting animals, so perhaps it is in the genes.

 

[Al_bina]

Apart from anything else, who would have him? Most aristocratic families would not subject their daughters to the inevitable scrutiny of the media and public, IMO. There don't seem to be that many foreign princesses to choose from (religion, age, interests).
So if not the daughter of a millionaire, who it would appear loves him enough to endure all that, who would want a relationship with him? Take away the Prince title and what have you got.... a balding 20 something, from a dysfunctional family, (hundreds of those about)!

Although cruely candid, you are absolutely correct. There are foreign Princesses. However, religion and interests may undermine prospects of the union.

 

[Elspeth]

Especially since the British royals don't seem to spend a lot of time around the other European royal families.

Mind you, Princess Akiko of Mikasa is the same age as William and is studying at Oxford at the moment.

I wonder how the British public would react to a Japanese Princess of Wales.

 

[Menarue]

I think it would be wonderful, but of course we need to know a bit more about the Princess other than the fact that she is Japanese.
But I agree with Sky, he isn´t that much of a match these days.

 

[Al_bina]

A possibility of having an exotic Princess has been discussed in the thread "Preferred Wives for William and Harry". As far as I have understood, the British Royal family is unlikely to mix their European blood with the non-European one. At the same time, it would be fair to assume that the Japanese Imperial family is unlikely to squander their divine blood by having a gaijin son-in-law. On a brighter note, a Japanese Princess of Wales will do her best fulfilling her giri: take care of a house, rear children, and preserve face of families (her own family and that of her husband).

 

[muriel]

I think it would be wonderful, but of course we need to know a bit more about the Princess other than the fact that she is Japanese.
But I agree with Sky, he isn´t that much of a match these days.

If William is not much of a catch, why is Waity katie still waiting, and why is her self promoting mother wasting her time?

 

[iakynthi]

He's not much of a catch? Come on,ladies!!There are millions of girls fascinated even by the Harry Potter actor or by those new Jonas Brothers... William looks like a God compared to them.
I mean,after all,we live in a crazy world,don't we?

 

[Ella Kay]

I think there was a lot more William-mania about ten years ago, not long after Diana's death, when Wills was still a fresh-faced teen with a full head of hair. Now that he's an adult, and the Diana fascination seems to be starting to fade away, and he's started to really look like a Windsor, he's really less of a heartthrob.

But I think Skydragon's right, in her humorous take on things: he's obviously found someone to love who is willing to endure the press attention, the incredibly weird family situation, and everything that goes with it. Good for him, I say.

 

[Royal Fan]

If he Loves her Lets give them a shot I Say weve had worst Royals out their!

 

[Mermaid1962]

And don't forget those years of putting stamps into albums!

[

I once read that King George V´s biographer said that apart from the short time he had in the navy the rest of his life was spent shooting animals, so perhaps it is in the genes.

 

[Denise_aus]

It may matter to Kate but for the rest of us I really can't see that it matters who William marries...actually I have a view that monarchies have outlived their relevance...that certainly seems to be a majority view amongst my friends.

 

[Iluvbertie]

It may matter to Kate but for the rest of us I really can't see that it matters who William marries...actually I have a view that monarchies have outlived their relevance...that certainly seems to be a majority view amongst my friends.

For Australia I agree but for Britain I am not so sure as the British monarchy is very well recognised as representing Britain all around the world.

 

[Menarue]

For Australia I agree but for Britain I am not so sure as the British monarchy is very well recognised as representing Britain all around the world.

You are right there. I notice that a lot of the posts about letting William marry whoever he likes, what does it matter, royalty is not relevant in these modern times, are from people who do not live in Britain. That is what I said before, it is hard from non-British people to understand what the BRF means to them. Right or wrong, it does mean a lot to most Britains as does tradition, perhaps it gives a false impression of unity and safety.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

On a brighter note, a Japanese Princess of Wales will do her best fulfilling her giri: take care of a house, rear children, and preserve face of families (her own family and that of her husband).

I personally doubt that such a marriage could be a happy one in the long term. A working one surely but IMHO the difference between the cultures, especially when it comes to the definition and rules of being Royal is too large.

Plus, as Al Bina said, we have no idea how this idea would be received by either Royal family. But I've seen that there are 4 older princesses than Mako and Kako, all of them on a way into the academic world. It will be interesting to see where they end up in life.

 

[Iluvbertie]

You are right there. I notice that a lot of the posts about letting William marry whoever he likes, what does it matter, royalty is not relevant in these modern times, are from people who do not live in Britain. That is what I said before, it is hard from non-British people to understand what the BRF means to them. Right or wrong, it does mean a lot to most Britains as does tradition, perhaps it gives a false impression of unity and safety.

Of course the point about Australia was also relating to the fact that William, as things currently stand, will be our Head of State one day so his future bride does mean more here than it does in a country such as the US as his future bride would be the wife of our Head of State.

However, I do suspect that Australia will be a Republic long before William becomes King.

 

[Penny Royalty]

It may matter to Kate but for the rest of us I really can't see that it matters who William marries...actually I have a view that monarchies have outlived their relevance...that certainly seems to be a majority view amongst my friends.

You may think there is no relevance but it is up to debate. Philosophically a person may wonder why it was time and time again that the people from the different lands and regions accepted and welcomed the Monarchy as a valid and wholesome way of governing their way of life. For ages people were ruled by Kingdoms and although with the development of societies that pertain to facilitating a better way of governing and sharing acquired knowledge for the masses, a person can still wonder, theorize and speculate, why this devine Earth was let ruled, by the Creator, by Royals. It is a phenomena that still can baffle a person as to how they were given the right. They led and led upon time the people who overall gave their abiding and support. There is something majestical in all that and for that I pay interest to this Royal forum.

I think even amongst our ability to replace the Monarchy as the most viable form of ruling, where anyone can become the empowered ruler through democracy and people can choose more readily their fate through better organized means, still I think their is sentiment and affinity that holds value even to this day concerning the remaining Monarchies. I wish instead of letting the affinity slip away, we should harness it and think about enveloping it into all the countries that were ruled once by it. But that's just me. It really is debatable and philosophical.

 

[Skydragon]

...actually I have a view that monarchies have outlived their relevance...that certainly seems to be a majority view amongst my friends.

I can't speak for Australians but I have to say that many youngsters here in the UK would agree with you, IMO.

In our 'I want' society, people want to see that they are getting something for their money. Many of the youngsters I come into contact with ask what they get out of it, they are not concerned with the Head of State or what that might entail. On the one hand they see a couple of rich kids becoming do nothing 'Officers' (normally said with the utmost derision) by others 'jobs for the nice but dim', who could get away with murder.

I think much of this has been caused by the spin doctors at Clarence House who would, it seems, rather prolong the story with a poorly thought out explanation, than admit he/she was a complete ass.

To this end, I think it is important who William and Harry finally marry and the 'tradition' was prince/princesses or aristocrats is missed by many, the danger of marrying from a lesser class could hasten their demise. Ask most people in the street who Miss Sophie R-J is/was and they don't know, ask most people who Lady Diana was and the majority immediately know.

If William changes girlfriend now, he will be called all manner of things for treating 'that poor girl like that'!

 

[Roslyn]

To this end, I think it is important who William and Harry finally marry and the 'tradition' was prince/princesses or aristocrats is missed by many, the danger of marrying from a lesser class could hasten their demise.

Cause or symptom though?

I regret that I will not be around when the dust of time settles and historians and anthropologists/sociologists etc. are able to objectively analyse what has happened in this regard over the last 50 years, and is still happening.

I tend to think that the movement towards Royalty choosing their mates from a larger pool is part of a natural change in society, part of the institution adapting to keep itself relevant and acceptable and ensuring its role continues. I doubt that an institution that insisted on marrying other royals or, in a pinch, an aristocrat, would really have the people's support today, and they need that support to survive.

But I could be wrong.

Ask most people in the street who Miss Sophie R-J is/was and they don't know, ask most people who Lady Diana was and the majority immediately know.

But would they know who Lady Diana was if she hadn't married The Prince of Wales?