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  #1061  
Old 03-22-2021, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cathy50 View Post
OMG, I do not know this, embarrassing, I am with you.
Well, even adults can try and learn languages ;-)
I am sure William is not so happy about this lack of education and Kate does not seem to be capable either. At least their children will probably do better.
I really find it hard to understand wha nobody not the Queen either stepped in when Charles children were not powered or to learn languages, as herself she speaks good French and Philip speaks so many languages.
I am not sure if it just a reflection of the general lack of enthusiasm for learning languages which exists in the UK. Although you’d hope that somewhere like Eton would enable pupils to be a little better than the average Brit. The Queen was following a path usual for young upper class ladies at the time and Phillip had a fairly international childhood where knowing different languages was useful.
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  #1062  
Old 03-22-2021, 03:06 PM
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(Kate wasn't raised to be Queen. I can't fault her for lacking education for a role she didn't know was her future. It really is harder to learn new languages as an adult, and I don't believe we should expect royals to have arranged marriages, so consorts' educations will be varied. I think Prince Daniel from Sweden is a wonderful person & consort, and I recall reading years ago that he was heavily criticized for his education & either his dialect or his pronunciation of his own language when his engagement to Victoria was announced.)

Phillip and the Queen had a very exact educational regime for Charles. Charles resented it (by all accounts he hated Gordonstoun, and was miserable at Cambridge too), and in response, I think, took the attitude that sending William off to good schools of William's choosing would be enough. It really will be interesting to revisit this in 20 years to determine who was right - Charles or his parents. I honestly don't know.

I can't imagine William didn't have to take a foreign language during his education through Eton. It may be that he's just bad at learning foreign languages, but I don't think it will be the deciding factor on his abilities as King. He does, however, need to always ensure he has a translator at appropriate times. Even if his team is responsible for the execution, it is on him to direct them. However, I would hope he has learned his lesson. I've made many mistakes in my own career and learned from them.
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  #1063  
Old 03-22-2021, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by xenobia View Post
Here's another example of an event where I think it would have been wonderful if W/K had participated. I know there were other meetings like this one, but it gives you an idea. I really don't understand why they don't put more effort into building friendly relationships with other young royals.

https://www.newmyroyals.com/2013/03/...n-visited.html
While I'm all in for the Cambridges building a somewhat-friendly relationships with the other royals, no, it would not have been wonderful. While they do enjoy a very high profile in the UK and internationally, this was a meeting for all of the heirs, not heirs to the heirs. While they're close in age, not the same generation, not the same position

It could look bad and backfire where PR is concerned, because it would be omitting the current heir to the British throne. If someone, Prince Charles and Duchess of Cornwall could attend such a meeting, but the age gap is... considerable in their case.
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  #1064  
Old 03-22-2021, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Not sure about Google but there was a real reaction on every Royal message board including this one. ( see archived threads for London Olympics and/or Relationships between Royals)

It was a very big thing, with Cambridge and BRF apologists launching into their usual "who cares if William does not know his Royal peers, he doesn't socialize, the Windsors are #1!" etc.

Forget about the fact that England was the HOST country and these were William's contemporaries and his peers.
It took a little while but found the discussion about this topic: starting here.
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  #1065  
Old 03-22-2021, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by xenobia View Post
Here's another example of an event where I think it would have been wonderful if W/K had participated. I know there were other meetings like this one, but it gives you an idea. I really don't understand why they don't put more effort into building friendly relationships with other young royals.

https://www.newmyroyals.com/2013/03/...n-visited.html
I think this is an accidental barrier for William and Kate when it comes to establishing personal relationships with the continental royals- they are the wrong age for their position/or the wrong position for their age, in comparison.

I highly doubt William and Kate were invited to that event.

They absolutely can't attend events they are not invited to.

And they absolutely can't insult Charles and the Queen by standing in as the heirs because William is not the heir.

Even the more open events (such as weddings and enthronements), the invitations are sent to the monarch, and the monarch chooses a representative. We can't know why the Queen doesn't send William and Kate. It is obvious that William and Kate were getting small visit each year to a new European country, but then Covid hit.
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  #1066  
Old 03-22-2021, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by BriarRose View Post
(Kate wasn't raised to be Queen. I can't fault her for lacking education for a role she didn't know was her future. It really is harder to learn new languages as an adult, and I don't believe we should expect royals to have arranged marriages, so consorts' educations will be varied. I think Prince Daniel from Sweden is a wonderful person & consort, and I recall reading years ago that he was heavily criticized for his education & either his dialect or his pronunciation of his own language when his engagement to Victoria was announced.)

Phillip and the Queen had a very exact educational regime for Charles. Charles resented it (by all accounts he hated Gordonstoun, and was miserable at Cambridge too), and in response, I think, took the attitude that sending William off to good schools of William's choosing would be enough. It really will be interesting to revisit this in 20 years to determine who was right - Charles or his parents. I honestly don't know.

I can't imagine William didn't have to take a foreign language during his education through Eton. It may be that he's just bad at learning foreign languages, but I don't think it will be the deciding factor on his abilities as King. He does, however, need to always ensure he has a translator at appropriate times. Even if his team is responsible for the execution, it is on him to direct them. However, I would hope he has learned his lesson. I've made many mistakes in my own career and learned from them.
I doubt if Philip had an exact educational plan for Charles. he sent him to Gordonstoun becuase it was open airsy and he had been there himself and liked it. Charles didn't because he found it too harsh and he was a quiet kid who would have been happy enough with a more studious regime. And Will went to a good school, got a degree and I can't imagine waht more he's supposed to do. Grad school? Doctorate.
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  #1067  
Old 03-22-2021, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by BriarRose View Post
(Kate wasn't raised to be Queen. I can't fault her for lacking education for a role she didn't know was her future. It really is harder to learn new languages as an adult, and I don't believe we should expect royals to have arranged marriages, so consorts' educations will be varied. I think Prince Daniel from Sweden is a wonderful person & consort, and I recall reading years ago that he was heavily criticized for his education & either his dialect or his pronunciation of his own language when his engagement to Victoria was announced.)

Phillip and the Queen had a very exact educational regime for Charles. Charles resented it (by all accounts he hated Gordonstoun, and was miserable at Cambridge too), and in response, I think, took the attitude that sending William off to good schools of William's choosing would be enough. It really will be interesting to revisit this in 20 years to determine who was right - Charles or his parents. I honestly don't know.

I can't imagine William didn't have to take a foreign language during his education through Eton. It may be that he's just bad at learning foreign languages, but I don't think it will be the deciding factor on his abilities as King. He does, however, need to always ensure he has a translator at appropriate times. Even if his team is responsible for the execution, it is on him to direct them. However, I would hope he has learned his lesson. I've made many mistakes in my own career and learned from them.
Although he's not the heir or monarch, international childhood and relatives aside, can anyone find me a clip of Philip speaking at length in a language other than English? It may be in his case TPTB were so determined to present him as "not a foreigner" that they stuck with it. In which case William wouldn't be the first person where it was de-emphasized.
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  #1068  
Old 03-22-2021, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by BriarRose View Post
I think this is an accidental barrier for William and Kate when it comes to establishing personal relationships with the continental royals- they are the wrong age for their position/or the wrong position for their age, in comparison.

I highly doubt William and Kate were invited to that event.

They absolutely can't attend events they are not invited to.

And they absolutely can't insult Charles and the Queen by standing in as the heirs because William is not the heir.

Even the more open events (such as weddings and enthronements), the invitations are sent to the monarch, and the monarch chooses a representative. We can't know why the Queen doesn't send William and Kate. It is obvious that William and Kate were getting small visit each year to a new European country, but then Covid hit.
I tend to agree here. It would be nice/fun to see the Cambridges socialize with other Royal couples in their age group, but strictly necessary? No.

What if they find that they have zero in common with the Continentals?
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  #1069  
Old 03-22-2021, 03:49 PM
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I very much disagree with the argument that royals don't need a thorough education. That may have been the case 50-60 years ago, but today royals needs to be educated to the limit of their abilities IMO.

The reason is very simple, being a senior royal today doesn't just mean cutting ribbons, delivering speeches and do some small talk about the weather and horses.
Today royals are expected to know what they are talking about when they do small talk - the weather doesn't suffice anymore. They are also required to give interviews and answer questions from the press on the run so to speak, so they have to be in the know about all sorts of topics relating to economy, politics, culture, society, export, environmental issues, communication, social issues and so on. So that they say the right thing and more importantly; don't say the wrong things!
There can hardly be anything more embarrassing than a royal on a state visit being caught flatfooted not having a glue about the main topic in question whatever that may be. Nor is it fortunate if the royal isn't cultured. Being culturny (spl?) as the Russians put it does matter a lot in many countries! The royal may not be expected to discuss Kirkegaard in detail, but he/she should at least know who he is and not mistake him for a talkshow host.

Another thing is that royals now give extensive interviews prior and after foreign visits. Again it's a good idea if they can point out the country on a map and perhaps remember a couple of cities and know a little history - otherwise the foreign journalists aren't going to be impressed.
QEII can dodge that one due to her routine and huge experience and because she rarely gives interviews. And because she's done it her way since forever. William won't have that luxury. He'll end up being ridiculed on the front page if he goofs.

Another reason why royals should have as well rounded education as possible is that most are patrons of international causes, for which they advocate - preferably competently! And that's something they are expected to do in an international setting, mingling and networking. Sometimes doing that, not only with the blessing but with the active encouragement of their government.

As for languages. I often hear the argument that everybody speaks English, so why bother learning other languages?
No, everybody does not speak English. And by learning a foreign language for real you are forced to learn about the culture and the history, otherwise a lot of nuances will be lost.
So if a royal has the ability to learn at least one foreign language well, it should be done. Being able to switch to one or more languages is a skill that is very much appreciated by foreign departments in every monarchy, that I'll state without hesitation.

Does that mean that a senior royal that doesn't not master several languages, have a university degree and a broad general knowledge can't do his job? No, he can do well, with help and good advisors. But he will be at a severe disadvantage.
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  #1070  
Old 03-22-2021, 04:19 PM
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I'm not sure that anyone thinks William only needed to be literate and out of school at 16. (Yes, legally he could be illiterate and be King, but I don't think it would last very long. I forget who was the last English Monarch that couldn't read and write.)

And I think that being smart and intellectual are wonderful traits that benefit not just royals, but many people.

But as someone who has a doctorate and is married to someone who went to one of the top universities in the world, I know so many people with masters and doctorates that would fail miserably giving interviews. They are incredibly intelligent, but couldn't handle that type of engagement. Oddly, the most charming and well-spoken (and wildly successful) person I know is a college drop-out.

So I don't personally think there is an exact resume that creates a successful monarch (though I do applaud the intellectual achievements of some royals). It would really be wonderful if William spoke French and Welsh and went to Oxford, but I think the most important assets he will need are common sense and strong ethics. Education can build these, but it is not guaranteed. And I don't want to fall into the Ivory Tower trap of discounting how much a military education can teach a person, specifically when it comes to common sense and ethics.

I mean, without going into specifics, the recent and current monarchs and consorts that I think have failed, failed due to a lack of ethics and common sense, not education. At least one speaks four languages to my knowledge.
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  #1071  
Old 03-22-2021, 04:24 PM
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The academic education of Prince William is not as vast as that of the current Spanish heiress, Princess Leonor for example (who already knows several languages, will study abroad and is expected to also have military training and university studies).
William has a degree in Geography, went through military life.
I think William has the bases to be a good king of the 21st century, he also seems to be interested in many themes, he has traveled a lot, he has connections with several charities, etc.
But the Prince of Wales should have given more attention to the academic life of his children, he should have encouraged his children to learn other languages, to have a more complete education.
Prince Harry, for example, never went to university, despite having gone through the British army.
But Willliam, as I said earlier, has everything to be a good king and I think that despite everything, he is prepared for the challenges of the 21st century.
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  #1072  
Old 03-22-2021, 04:34 PM
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It is indeed extremely important that royals master communication skills, especially if they are uncomfortable standing in front of a microphone.
They should be drilled until they cry blood, because the press and the public is merciless.
And a lot of the other talents they have will be unnoticed

Frederik of the DRF was horrible at giving interviews or answering questions! He could hardly utter a coherent sentence, let alone make sense of what he was trying to say.
Today he is doing much better. He is still uncomfortable and he is still not a natural when it comes to expressing himself verbally. He has been trained and had a couple of victories and that has helped.

So learning communication, how the press works, media-techniques and simply give speeches is today one of the most important things all royals must learn.
And it's better they are trained, than they learn the hard way on their own over the years, suffering defeats in the process.

Royals today are basically representative all-round PR-agencies, with a number of constitutional obligations as well as being living national symbols added into their job resume.
It's a complicated job, especially if your are born into it! So the better prepared, trained, informed and educated they are, the better. Otherwise it's tantamount to animal abuse.
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  #1073  
Old 03-22-2021, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I very much disagree with the argument that royals don't need a thorough education. That may have been the case 50-60 years ago, but today royals needs to be educated to the limit of their abilities IMO.

The reason is very simple, being a senior royal today doesn't just mean cutting ribbons, delivering speeches and do some small talk about the weather and horses.
Today royals are expected to know what they are talking about when they do small talk - the weather doesn't suffice anymore. They are also required to give interviews and answer questions from the press on the run so to speak, so they have to be in the know about all sorts of topics relating to economy, politics, culture, society, export, environmental issues, communication, social issues and so on. So that they say the right thing and more importantly; don't say the wrong things!
There can hardly be anything more embarrassing than a royal on a state visit being caught flatfooted not having a glue about the main topic in question whatever that may be. Nor is it fortunate if the royal isn't cultured. Being culturny (spl?) as the Russians put it does matter a lot in many countries! The royal may not be expected to discuss Kirkegaard in detail, but he/she should at least know who he is and not mistake him for a talkshow host.

Another thing is that royals now give extensive interviews prior and after foreign visits. Again it's a good idea if they can point out the country on a map and perhaps remember a couple of cities and know a little history - otherwise the foreign journalists aren't going to be impressed.
QEII can dodge that one due to her routine and huge experience and because she rarely gives interviews. And because she's done it her way since forever. William won't have that luxury. He'll end up being ridiculed on the front page if he goofs.

Another reason why royals should have as well rounded education as possible is that most are patrons of international causes, for which they advocate - preferably competently! And that's something they are expected to do in an international setting, mingling and networking. Sometimes doing that, not only with the blessing but with the active encouragement of their government.

As for languages. I often hear the argument that everybody speaks English, so why bother learning other languages?
No, everybody does not speak English. And by learning a foreign language for real you are forced to learn about the culture and the history, otherwise a lot of nuances will be lost.
So if a royal has the ability to learn at least one foreign language well, it should be done. Being able to switch to one or more languages is a skill that is very much appreciated by foreign departments in every monarchy, that I'll state without hesitation.

Does that mean that a senior royal that doesn't not master several languages, have a university degree and a broad general knowledge can't do his job? No, he can do well, with help and good advisors. But he will be at a severe disadvantage.
I am so grateful for you, Muhler, you are amazing in your ability to articulate your beliefs and opinions so clearly.

I agree 100% with everything you posted. And let's see if you and Blog Real will be challenged with the same fervor/vehemence that I was.
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  #1074  
Old 03-22-2021, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
Although he's not the heir or monarch, international childhood and relatives aside, can anyone find me a clip of Philip speaking at length in a language other than English? It may be in his case TPTB were so determined to present him as "not a foreigner" that they stuck with it. In which case William wouldn't be the first person where it was de-emphasized.
I have no video by hand, but Philip speaks German when being in Germany and you can surely easily find a YT clip.
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  #1075  
Old 03-22-2021, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...r-dianas-death

To William's credit, he is not pretentious about his lack of fluency. He is very charming in fact.

And he does try.

The above is not the article dealing with the awkward private one-on-one at the Elysee btw.

His poor French skills are slightly more problematic IMHO than his poor knowledge of other languages in general only because Wiliam might become King of Canada in the future.


But, using the same reasoning, William will probably become Prince of Wales too, and he is not expected to learn Welsh (his father learned a bit for his investiture, but never became proficient).
Quote:
Originally Posted by BriarRose View Post
I agree that it would be good for William and Kate to socialize with the continental royals. (But maybe that's because I would!)

However, in a wee bit of fairness to them, William is not the heir apparent, and the British Monarchy is 'off generation' to the Continental monarchies, and [possibly because of the travel requirements of the Commonwealth] the Queen tends to send Edward & Sophie to continental royal events where introductions & friendships could be made. The 'major' events of course naturally still go to Charles.

(Now, that doesn't excuse William from reading the newspaper/knowing faces. )

I would expect the same event today would be a bit different. In addition to their brief Scandanavian tour a few years ago, William and Kate have attended quite a few State Banquets in the U.K. with royals (Spain, Netherlands, and maybe another I'm forgetting.)
Up to 2004, Prince Charles regularly attended royal events in the Continent. He attended for example the weddings of the Duke of Brabant, the Prince of Orange and the Prince of Asturias. He also attended the funeral of Prince Claus if I am not mistaken.

I expect William and Catherine to take up the role of representing King Charles III (or George VII) in royal weddings, funerals and inaugurations overseas after Charles ascends the throne, rather than Charles relying on his brother and sister-in-law for that.

When the Covid situation eases off, I also expect a few incoming royal visits to the UK (Japan to begin with, then probably Belgium) and, in Charles' reign, if Frederik ascends the Danish throne, there may be an incoming Danish visit too.
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  #1076  
Old 03-22-2021, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BriarRose View Post
(Kate wasn't raised to be Queen. I can't fault her for lacking education for a role she didn't know was her future. It really is harder to learn new languages as an adult, and I don't believe we should expect royals to have arranged marriages, so consorts' educations will be varied. I think Prince Daniel from Sweden is a wonderful person & consort, and I recall reading years ago that he was heavily criticized for his education & either his dialect or his pronunciation of his own language when his engagement to Victoria was announced.)

Phillip and the Queen had a very exact educational regime for Charles. Charles resented it (by all accounts he hated Gordonstoun, and was miserable at Cambridge too), and in response, I think, took the attitude that sending William off to good schools of William's choosing would be enough. It really will be interesting to revisit this in 20 years to determine who was right - Charles or his parents. I honestly don't know.

I can't imagine William didn't have to take a foreign language during his education through Eton. It may be that he's just bad at learning foreign languages, but I don't think it will be the deciding factor on his abilities as King. He does, however, need to always ensure he has a translator at appropriate times. Even if his team is responsible for the execution, it is on him to direct them. However, I would hope he has learned his lesson. I've made many mistakes in my own career and learned from them.
Well, if William liked it or not, the point is his parents or HM should have put more focus on his education.
And learning a language is good for anybody as it goes along with diving into another culture. And so it was for Kate aswell, though I think her childhood in Jordan made her maybe more flexible than we all know.
I wonder how William& Kate were able to pass at St. Andrews with only English, but as I mentioned before William can some French.
A lot if studies require at least French, so does History of Arts, but maybe St.Andrews has easier access.

Anyway languages give a better access to people, not only in business but especially in personal matters. Why does the Prince of Wales speak welsh? ;-)
Wha does the Pope greet in various languages?
Well William is not the Pope, but better language skills would be no hinderance for his job..
And by the way, ambitious british employees do speak more than English , but of course if you are the King-to-be one does not have to care about job Interviews LOL
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  #1077  
Old 03-22-2021, 05:01 PM
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I believe William will be a good King and yes not perfect as he is human and it can be a difficult job at times.

As for languages spoken, Prince Christopher of Greece described his family as a Polyglot. ( He was a paternal Uncle to Prince Philip.)
He wrote in his memoirs. " Because my Father was Danish born and a Greek King (King Georgios of Greece) and my mother was a Russian Grand Duchess , language was a complicated matter in my family. We children spoke Greek to one another (6 siblings) and English to our parents. Our parents spoke German to each other. My sister in law Ellen (a Russian Grand Duchess) spoke English to us and Russian to my Mother (Queen Olga nee Grand Duchess Olga.)
I could speak Greek, English, Danish, Russian, French and Italian. Russian always came naturally to me."
In 1920 Prince Christopher married an American widow Nancy Stewart Worthington Leeds. Her second husband had been a Tin mining millionaire. Nancy's title became HRH Princess Anastasia of Greece and Denmark.
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  #1078  
Old 03-22-2021, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by cathy50 View Post
I wonder how William& Kate were able to pass at St. Andrews with only English, but as I mentioned before William can some French.
???

St Andrews definitely doesn't have easy access: it's a very good university.

I've got a first class degree from a British university. It didn't involve languages, because it wasn't a language degree.

I did French and Spanish at school, but they didn't come into my university course, and they wouldn't have come into William's geography degree or Kate's history of art degree.

I'm pretty sure that both William and Kate will have done French at school, because most people of our generation did, but neither of them speak it fluently because GCSE (the exam you do at 16)-level French isn't the same as being able to give a speech or converse about international affairs.

Language teaching in this country does leave something to be desired, but that's an issue with the system, not with either William or Kate, and certainly not with St Andrews. I don't think it's an issue with Eton, either: it follows the same language curriculum as other schools, because everyone does the same exams.

I'm surprised that the Queen didn't want William to learn another language fluently, though. She was taught fluent French, and I'm pretty sure that that was because it'd be useful for diplomatic reasons rather than some Jane Austen-esque idea of it being an accomplishment. But maybe, after Charles moaned so much about Gordonstoun, she decided to stay out of it and leave it to Charles and Diana to decide about William's education.
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  #1079  
Old 03-22-2021, 05:18 PM
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I think that Charles will do things not that different from QEII. And I doubt he will reign long enough - and with enough stamina - to implement radical changes even if he wanted to.

William however, will be different, of that I'm certain.
His approach will in my assessment become more "Continental" without being directly inspired by them. But because it comes natural.

He will be much more in eye-level with the ordinary Briton I believe, simply because he understand them better and understand the thinking and values. At least in regards to the middle class. That he can thank his wife for, her family and because he has had an "ordinary" job being in direct day to day contact with ordinary people on an equal level.

So I predict we will see a William, who will mingle more with ordinary people. Who will address people more and more directly and who will be less formal when on the job, except when the big show is on.
We will also see a family, who openly shows affection for each other, to the extent that feels natural, because it's my impression that both William and Kate are introvert and feel uncomfortable showing too much affection in public. Instead we will get to know the family, especially the children better and earlier than seen previously. They are already in the spotlight, so why not involve them?
We will see a more warm family in public, with less stiff upper lip. I don't believe William wish to be seen as an aloof monarch who stays above issues, if you get my meaning. That ship will sail with the demise of QEII. That was something QEII could do, basically because she has been Queen for generations of Britons. William won't be able to continue doing that, even if he wanted to. He would simple be seen as indeed being aloof, in the negative interpretation of the word, and irrelevant.
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Old 03-22-2021, 05:32 PM
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William got 12 GCSEs which is pretty good going and an A in Geography B in Art and C in Biology. Then got a 2:1 in Geography from St Andrews. Then graduated from Sandhurst and was a successful pilot before starting full time royal duties.

He also had a Gap year. All pretty standard. Unfortunately languages are not a priority in the UK curriculum although various governments do promise to change that and I think it is changing slowing, it's quite an ingrained cultural thing.

Apart from the language issue he seems to be gaining experience of the job and thinking about what he wants to change and what he wants to improve upon and a sense of what he needs to be as a King in order to reach people. He's spending time with various government agencies, spending time learning the ropes of the Duchy, spent months with diplomats to prep for various trips and even that he receives copies some state papers from HMs Red Box so he can learn the ropes....

I don't see it as a problem that he doesn't have a doctorate or even MA in International Relations.
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