Prince William and Catherine Middleton Possible Titles

[Sister Morphine]

The point seems to have been made a few times that the formal title doesn't matter, general usage will make the error of referring to the lady as "Princess Catherine" regardless.

With the obvious exception of Diana, I don't actually recall a precedent to suggest that this will be the case.

While Sarah Ferguson was married to the Duke of York she was referred to either by her christian name (which wasn't wrong) or as the Duchess of York (which was correct.)

The same seems to hold for the present Countess of Wessex. I don't believe I've ever heard anyone refer to her as "Princess Sophie" even though her husband continues to be referred to as Prince Edward.

Similar for the present Duchesses of Gloucester & Kent (although there's probably somewhat diminished consciousness that they hold princessly status from their husbands.)

A royal dukedom (or earldom) actually seems to be just the ticket to preventing the error being made!

Not sure I understand what you mean by a royal dukedom or earldom being the ticket. William could get three royal dukedoms on his wedding day and I can guarantee you, people will still call her Princess Catherine, rather than The Duchess of X, Y, and Z. The Earl and Countess of Wessex are rather low-key as far as senior members of the BRF go, and so it's not surprising to me that there aren't loads of articles and discussions referring to the Countess incorrectly as "Princess Sophie". Catherine on the other hand, will not be low-key. She's the future Queen.

 

[Duke of Leaside]

No, she wouldn't be called Lady Catherine. She'd be afforded that courtesy if she married a knight, ...

One tiny thing. I believe if she married a knight she'd not be "Lady Catherine" but "Lady (Surname)".

So if she married Sir Sean Connery, she'd be Lady Connery, not Lady Catherine or Lady Catherine Connery.

I always enjoy your posts Sister; I've learned a lot. Thanks!

 

[Sister Morphine]

Duh. I knew that, I just answered a question about that somewhere else. Brain fart for me.

 

[MRSJ]

I think as long as she is titled HRH Princess William, she'll be Princess Kate/Catherine but if she's Duchess of X most plp will probably go with it.... Of course right after the wedding many will probably call her Princess Kate just at first I think plus here is US I believe they will always call her that because almost every publication I've read or seen or watched is already calling her that......

Now if I were marrying a Prince, at least in my own head I'd call myself Princess MrsJ just for fun! even if it's not technically right and for giggles I'd make my family curtesy to me at least once! Jk

 

[branchg]

You are correct about it being rare. I could not find one single case of a prince prior to 1970 that was about to get married that was not a Duke. There are, of course, many Princes who died young and were never made Dukes.

You're forgetting HRH Prince Arthur of Connaught, only son of The Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught, who married his first cousin, Princess Alexandra, Duchess of Fife in 1913. Alexandra chose to be styled after her husband's title and was known after her marriage as "HRH Princess Arthur of Connaught".

Prince Arthur died of stomach cancer and his son, Alastair Windsor, Earl of MacDuff, succeeded his grandfather, as The Duke of Connaught.

 

[branchg]

Camilla is married to the heir to the throne, the same position as Diana was in while married, and I don't hear anyone calling her "Princess Camilla". The reason is she is styled as "The Duchess of Cornwall".

The same thing will happen with Catherine. If she is styled "Princess William of Wales", then it makes sense people will just start calling her "Princess Catherine" instead. But if she becomes "The Countess of X or The Duchess of Y", they won't.

 

[American Observer7]

HRH, Princess Catherine of Wales

You know something, the queen just might suprise all of you who insist that it is impossible that she would allow Catherine Middleton to be known as HRH, Princess Catherine of Windsor. No, it is not tradition but times are changing. And what if Prince William wants this for the woman he loves? Has anyone thought of that? From what I have read in articles, three months ago William asked his grandmother not to make him a duke, that he wants to remain a Prince and for Kate to be named Princess Catherine. The queen can do as she pleases in this matter from what I have read so all the speculation and assuming will change nothing and if she allows Kate to become Princess Catherine there is nothing that can be done about it. I hope she allows this because I think it is what William wants for the woman he loves and for her to have her own identity. I think it is wonderful!

 

[pacomartin]

You know something, the queen just might suprise all of you who insist that it is impossible that she would allow Catherine Middleton to be know as HRH, Princess Catherine of Windsor. No, it is not tradition but times are changing.

Here Here. I think that now would be a good time to change some traditions.

 

[LadyCatharine]

Thank you. I put the list together a while ago because I was trying to figure out why there were no woman in history who had "Princess male-firstname" as their primary title. It turns out that prior to 1970 every married Prince was first a duke (although the custom of naming them a duke just prior to their wedding is relatively recent).

I should have listed giving William a lesser title like Earl, Marquis, Viscount, or Baron. I rejected the idea because I thought that the public would perceive it as a trial run for Catherine, that she would only get the major title if the marriage lasted.

I figured that there was little point in any title lower than Duke since, as Princess William, she could always go by Lady Catherine by default. If she is speaking in America, they won't care because it will remind people of "Lady Di". It would be less awkward in an interview. If she is speaking, she could be introduced as "Her Royal Highness Princess William of Wales", referred to in person as "Your Royal Highness" the first time and then throughout the interview they would call her "Lady Catherine" instead of "ma'am".

Well just look at the similiarities..Except, I spell my different..Mine is the old English ,medieval version..

 

[Sister Morphine]

You know something, the queen just might suprise all of you who insist that it is impossible that she would allow Catherine Middleton to be known as HRH, Princess Catherine of Windsor. No, it is not tradition but times are changing. And what if Prince William wants this for the woman he loves? Has anyone thought of that? From what I have read in articles, three months ago William asked his grandmother not to make him a duke, that he wants to remain a Prince and for Kate to be named Princess Catherine. The queen can do as she pleases in this matter from what I have read so all the speculation and assuming will change nothing and if she allows Kate to become Princess Catherine there is nothing that can be done about it. I hope she allows this because I think it is what William wants for the woman he loves and for her to have her own identity. I think it is wonderful!

Princess Catherine of Windsor? Who's that? For starters, there's no way the Queen is going to give William the Dukedom of Windsor, not after who it used to belong to. Nazi sympathies aside, the Queen's uncle disgraced his family and his country, and I doubt seriously she would countenance giving that title to her eldest grandson who will one day be King. So Catherine will never be "of Windsor" no matter what her title ends up being. Two, I highly doubt that William would publicly challenge or criticize the conventions of both his family and the monarchy by all-but demanding Catherine be titled or styled the way HE sees fit, rather than by the Queen's design, which is how it's done. She is the fount of all honor, what Catherine is or is not called is by the Queen's discretion, not William's. Three, we don't know what William wants or what William doesn't want. You should learn to not take everything you read in the press as truth, and take it with a grain of salt. There's been so much disinformation spread around since their engagement about what they're doing, what they're wearing, what they'll be called, it's enough to do people's heads in. Four, it would look hypocritical for the Queen to give an honor to Catherine she has not given to another future queen, her daughter-in-law Camilla. If the idea of making Catherine a princess is because she's going to be Queen.....Camilla is going to be queen too. What's good for the goose, you know.

 

[branchg]

You know something, the queen just might suprise all of you who insist that it is impossible that she would allow Catherine Middleton to be known as HRH, Princess Catherine of Windsor. From what I have read in articles, three months ago William asked his grandmother not to make him a duke, that he wants to remain a Prince and for Kate to be named Princess Catherine.

Marrying into the British royal family is to accept the traditions and precedence inherent in royal life that uphold the fount of honour in its role as a constitutional crown. You're accepting a life of public duty and the rules that go with that role.

There is no reason whatsoever for a wife of a male-line grandson, albeit one who is the heir to the heir, to have the right to the style of "HRH Princess X" upon marriage. Catherine's precedence upon marriage will follow the wives of the sons of The Sovereign, neither of whom are allowed this style and one is the future Queen. Camilla isn't even using her senior title as Princess of Wales, but is styled as Duchess of Cornwall instead. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

The style of "HRH Princess Catherine of Windsor" is for the daughter of a son of The Sovereign who was created The Duke/Marquess/or Earl of Windsor, not his wife.

If William was created a Peer referencing Windsor (highly unlikely, but certainly possible), then Catherine will be known as "HRH The Duchess/Marchioness or Countess of Windsor".

 

[Zonk]

I would also like to remind everyone who keeps referencing an article that William requested that Catherine to be made a Princess in her own right. These are the same newspapers who reported that Carole Middleton had met the Queen at William's graduation, and that Jay Z or Snoop Dog were going to perform at the reception. Plus a lot of other rumours.

My point is not everything that has been reported in the press about this wedding is true. We will, however, definitely find out the truth on April 29th.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I would also like to remind everyone who keeps referencing an article that William requested that Catherine to be made a Princess in her own right. These are the same newspapers who reported that Carole Middleton had met the Queen at William's graduation, and that Jay Z or Snoop Dog were going to perform at the reception. Plus a lot of other rumours.

My point is not everything that has been reported in the press about this wedding is true. We will, however, definitely find out the truth on April 29th.

That's something I pointed out when I mentioned how much disinformation has been spread, and that it would help to take what we read with a grain of salt rather than as gospel truth. Like you said, the day of the wedding, will find out what if anything, she'll be called.

 

[suzi lou d]

This thread is extremely interesting - I'm ploughing my way through it! Apologies if this has already been suggested, but what do people think about the possibility of William being made Duke/Earl of Anglesey, making Kate Duchess/Countess of Anglesey. Not only is it their current home, but has the Welsh connection as well. Just a thought.

 

[CrownPrincess5]

I've heard that the title will be announced a few hours before the wedding...is that true or will it be announced during the actual wedding ceremony?

 

[Sister Morphine]

I would imagine it would be announced before the wedding so that all the commentators for the dozens of channels all over the world covering it can address them by the right titles. If memory serves, when Andrew and Edward married, their new titles (Duke of York, Earl of Wessex) were made public before the weddings.

 

[Sister Morphine]

This thread is extremely interesting - I'm ploughing my way through it! Apologies if this has already been suggested, but what do people think about the possibility of William being made Duke/Earl of Anglesey, making Kate Duchess/Countess of Anglesey. Not only is it their current home, but has the Welsh connection as well. Just a thought.

A quick check shows no Duke of Anglesey or Earl of Anglesey, so the titles are available for a re-grant, however titling conventions have the main title being based in England, with subsidiary titles coming from other parts of the United Kingdom. For example, Prince Andrew is Duke of York, Earl of Inverness (Scotland) and Baron Killyleagh (Northern Ireland). So it's not likely that if William is given a title on his wedding day, it will be based in Wales. He could be named Duke of Cambridge, Earl of Anglesey, though.

 

[daisygoogles]

Princess Catherine of Windsor? Who's that? For starters, there's no way the Queen is going to give William the Dukedom of Windsor, not after who it used to belong to. Nazi sympathies aside, the Queen's uncle disgraced his family and his country, and I doubt seriously she would countenance giving that title to her eldest grandson who will one day be King. So Catherine will never be "of Windsor" no matter what her title ends up being. Two, I highly doubt that William would publicly challenge or criticize the conventions of both his family and the monarchy by all-but demanding Catherine be titled or styled the way HE sees fit, rather than by the Queen's design, which is how it's done. She is the fount of all honor, what Catherine is or is not called is by the Queen's discretion, not William's. Three, we don't know what William wants or what William doesn't want. You should learn to not take everything you read in the press as truth, and take it with a grain of salt. There's been so much disinformation spread around since their engagement about what they're doing, what they're wearing, what they'll be called, it's enough to do people's heads in. Four, it would look hypocritical for the Queen to give an honor to Catherine she has not given to another future queen, her daughter-in-law Camilla. If the idea of making Catherine a princess is because she's going to be Queen.....Camilla is going to be queen too. What's good for the goose, you know.

I understand what you are saying and we all know about camilla But these are 2 different women in different circumstances. I don't think the Queen would like to be called hypocritical especially since she is the fount of honours and it is HER choice . Whether it APPEARS hypocritical or not will not matter to the Queen. It is what she will want for HER monarchy

 

[daisygoogles]

Yep...and then we'll start talking about what titles/styles their children will have, all the way up to the birth.

I just can't wait. All the speculation these past months are all coming down to one day. I have my own favorites for tiaras/jewels and titles if any. But it will be so much fun to look back and to see who guessed right about things and who didn't. And who had fun with it and who insisted they knew everything and got it all wrong. Now, I hope I don't see anyone deleting their posts because they thru the gauntlet down on what MUST happen and what the Queen WILL do or won't do.. It'll be fun

 

[daisygoogles]

[Q

Right well I've had a long think about all this and come to the conclusion that I now actually quite like the SOUND of HRH Princess William of Wales. Yes, it's weird, old fashioned, highly sexist, and I'm quite likely to change my mind in a week, but it's a formal title and not what Kate would be known as by her family, the public or the media (Except maybe the BBC and in the Court Circular). It is no better or worse than being a countess of a place that no longer exists (as in Wessex) nor a title no one has ever explained (as in Princess Royal) nor a title that would be more suited to an Angela Lansbury character in Death On The Nile (Duchess of Cambridge) or a secondary title because the first is too controversial (as in Duchess of Cornwall) or even a title of place you never lived in or visited (as in Duchess of Kent or Duchess of York)!
The title will be a surprise whatever happens, because I think 29th April will be a day full of surprise.
The next twelve days are going to long ones I think!

I like it too and your post made me laugh.

 

[Lady Ann]

I think that everyone here states their opinion and I have not come across anyone who would delete a post because their opinion or thought did not come to be. looking at the way things have been done for 100's of years is a good way to base what will happen on the 29th of April, My own opinion is that the Queen will grant William a title weather it be Duke of x or Earl of x I have no idea ..nor do I know if William will accept it. He has a choice not to... what I personally hope is that the Queen will not Style Catherine as "Princess Catherine.....in any way but HRH Princess William of Wales.... (I know some people don't like this but I like th sound of it) as she has not done this for any other royal bride on their wedding day.

 

[daisygoogles]

Making her a princess in her own right doesn't mean that the marriage will not end unhappily. If William and Kate stay married until one of their deaths or until they divorce (of course no one wants that to happen), it will happen regardless of what titles if any, either of them receive on their wedding day.

Catherine will be giving speeches alone, or at least doing her own thing, even if she's not made a princess in her own right, especially after Charles becomes King. So that has nothing to do with it either.

The fact of the matter is, there are other women who married into the BRF who were not given the largesse of being made a princess in their own right, especially both Diana and now Camilla, both of whom were/are in the same position Catherine will be in a couple of weeks -- the future Queen. I'm not even mentioning the wives of the Queen's cousins, I'm talking about her own daughters-in-law. Diana, Sarah, Camilla, Sophie.....none of them were made princesses in their own right. All of them, regardless of their current or future stations, were treated as commoners who married princes. They became HRH The Princess X and then any other titles their husbands held. I cannot see the Queen bucking literally centuries of precedent and tradition for her, no matter what her future titles or duties may be. If she didn't do it for either of the women who married Charles, she's not going to do it for William's wife.

EASY....No reason to be so...grrrrrrrrrrr...I think alot of people just like to share their thoughts and hopes and "what ifs"... Anyone who reads this board knows the basic in's and out's of what will and won't happen and why. But it's fun to talk about all the different scenarios that anyone "in the know" like yourself knows will PROBABLY never happen.
Imagine if the Queen lost herself and said..What the heck..Let her be a princess in her own right!!! Imagine princess Annes reaction...LOL

 

[ladongas]

...Well, again, I very much doubt that Windsor will ever be used again in the BRF. The guy and his wife were Nazi toadies and sympathizers, which never goes over well in Britain (note Prince Harry's huge costume-party gaffe), and the Queen Mother, I have read, always held that David's abdication, forcing Bertie to be King, was responsible for her husband's early death, and was implacable in her hatred of both Windsors.

And Parliament would never allow it, which is more to the point.

The Parliament wouldn't allow it? While I do agree completely that the Dukedom of Windsor won't be granted for a long time, if ever, I don't see why the Parliament would be involved, as the Queen is the font of all honours? Just curious...

I have just finished reading Ziegler's "Edward VIII", and today I came across the following: (page 455)

Discussing the possibility of Wallis being granted the HRH which she and David both wished, 'brilliant lawyer William Jowitt'...maintained that..."a desire to uphold the intentions of the King as the fountainhead of honour. Whatever the position might have been in 1937, it could now only be reversed by the issue of fresh Letters Patent. These could not be issued by the King alone, but only on the advice of his ministers, who would probably feel it necessary to consult all the Commonwealth governments."

So, apparently, while the Monarch is the fount of all honours, she can't just willy-nilly issue Letters Patent. (A system like this in Imperial Rome would have prevented Caligula from appointing his horse as consul and priest.)

 

[Caroline53]

Royal Titles

Excuse me if I do anything wrong as I don't think I have ever posted on this forum before.

I don't think the Queen will set any precedents as regards William and Catherine as that is not her style. Catherine will never be known as Princess Catherine unless unofficially .

On the wedding morning I think William's dukedom will be announced first thing. Duke of what? Connaught, Cambridge? Not keen on either for some reason. Has the Queen or Charles the title Duke of Lancaster (or Lancashire)? If not, I like that one. Regarding a Scottish title, is there still an Earl of Strathmore? Could William become that or even Duke of Strathmore? I think I saw Strathmore mentioned somewhere I like that and I also like Angelsey as he and Catherine live there.

Whatever...I hope they will be really happy.

 

[Lady Ann]

Strathomore has an Earldom ....
Michael Fergus Bowes-Lyon, 18th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne, (he is the first cousin once removed of the Queen) the Earl is 53 years old and his son, Simon Patrick Bowes-Lyon, Lord Glamis (b. 1986) is next in line for the Earldom ..

 

[Sister Morphine]

Connaught is an Irish title, and seeing as Ireland is a republic and no longer a Commonwealth realm, it would be in poor taste to re-grant that. The Queen is the Duke of Lancaster, so she can't give it to William. There is an Earl of Strathmore still, the late Queen Mother's grandnephew and the Queen's first cousin once removed. He has three sons, so there's little chance of the title going extant anytime soon. Duke of Strathmore is an unlikely possibility, as titling conventions (at least as far as I can tell) have the main title being based in England, with subsidiary titles coming from other parts of the UK. I used Prince Andrew, Duke of York as an example of that. So Strathmore would be out. Anglesey could be used as an earldom if the Queen so chooses.

 

[abcdxyz]

From what I have read in articles, three months ago William asked his grandmother not to make him a duke, that he wants to remain a Prince . . .

And so he shall!

 

[Sister Morphine]

There's no proof he said that. What's printed in newspaper articles anymore, especially concerning this wedding, should be taken as false until proven true.

 

[Tiggersk8]

Sister Morphine, I just wanted to say thank you for the background on the Princess Royal title, as I never knew how it came into being.

We're almost to a week and a half till we find out if William will be given a Dukedom or not for a Wedding Gift!! D

 

[Iluvbertie]

Excuse me if I do anything wrong as I don't think I have ever posted on this forum before.

I don't think the Queen will set any precedents as regards William and Catherine as that is not her style. Catherine will never be known as Princess Catherine unless unofficially .

On the wedding morning I think William's dukedom will be announced first thing. Duke of what? Connaught, Cambridge? Not keen on either for some reason. Has the Queen or Charles the title Duke of Lancaster (or Lancashire)? If not, I like that one. Regarding a Scottish title, is there still an Earl of Strathmore? Could William become that or even Duke of Strathmore? I think I saw Strathmore mentioned somewhere I like that and I also like Angelsey as he and Catherine live there.

Whatever...I hope they will be really happy.

Connaught isn't available any more as Connaught itself is in the republic and it is highly doubtful that the monarch would grant a title where the place name is in a country over which she isn't the Queen.

An Irish title could be based in Northern Ireland of course but even then there would be controversy as many people in Northern Ireland wish to be united with the Republic.

Strathmore is already in use by the Queen's cousin.

The Duke of Lancaster is always the monarch and has been since the end of the Wars of the Roses with the income of that Duchy providing the private income of the monarch. In time William will be Duke of Lancaster but not until both his grandmother and father are dead. It is a title he will never use though as he will use the grander one of King. I am sure that I have read somewhere that Queen Victoria did travel occasionally incognito using the title Duchess of Lancaster although usually she travelled as Countess of Kent.

The most likely titles are Clarence or Cambridge but Avondale is also free I believe. Of course they could use a completely new title or none at all.