Prince William and Catherine Middleton Possible Titles

[Iluvbertie]

No there isn't. When Friedrich Josias, Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha died in 1998, the Dukedom of Albany and all its subsidiary titles became extinct. He had sons, but they weren't granted permission to marry under the Royal Marriages Act of 1772, so under British law, their marriages are considered void. That means the children from those marriages are considered illegitimate and unable to succeed.

So the title is available for a re-grant if HM chooses to.

What about Prince Herbertus who does claim that right http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Hubertus_of_Saxe-Coburg_and_Gotha_(b._1961)

 

[Americanskipper]

Harry probably won't get a dukedom until Prince Andrew dies, as it is customary for the 2nd son of the sovereign to be given the title Duke of York. As Andrew has no male heirs, when he dies it'll merge into the crown and be available for a re-grant. Of course, if Harry is given a dukedom before then, and Charles as King still decides to give him the dukedom of York, he'll be known as HRH Prince Henry, The Duke of X and York, and any of his children he has at that time will be HRH Prince/Princess X of Y and York.

Harry will never become Duke of York. The next Duke of York most likely be William's second son. (I know I am leaving the main purpose of this thread - sorry!)

I think the most likely scenario is William is made an Earl in two weeks when he marries. Harry is also made an earl when he marries. That sort of is in line with Prince Edward being made an Earl.

Then after the queen and Prince Philip dies and the Duke of Kent and Gloucester are too senior to carry out many tasks and even Anne has to start slowing down, everyone will get 'promoted'. Charles will become King. William will immediately be made Duke of Cornwall and soon thereafter THE prince of Wales. Edward will get Duke of Edinbourgh. And Harry will be some Duke other than York.

 

[Sherlock221B]

William will be given a dukedom...his great-great-grandfather George V's older brother, Prince Albert was Duke of Clarence while their father was still Prince of Wales...meaning he, Prince Albert - DUKE OF CLARENCE, would have been the next Prince of Wales had he been alive when his father became king.

A duke is the highest rank of nobility below the monarchy and remember Prince Edward chose not to become a duke.

Hold on a second...by the theory of a dukedom being unnecessary for William due to his inheritance of the Duchy of Cornwall and Rothesay, as the eldest son of the current PoW aka Duke of Cornwall/Rothesay...wouldn't that make William an earl already? Thus by marriage Catherine would become a countess...

 

[Madame Royale]

A duke is the highest rank of nobility below the monarchy

Indeed, but if bestowed, the title will become a royal title having been gifted to a royal prince, thus he will be a royal Duke.

We understand that the highest-ranking hereditary title in the British peerage is that of a Duke, but the disparity between a Duke of royal blood and a Duke of noble blood is well distinguished.

 

[branchg]

In order to prevent Williams oldest son from being Prince X of Wales based upon his grandfather's territory, and then cease to be such, and then to be made Prince X of Wales AGAIN, I think William will get some title upon his wedding.

William's eldest son would be "HRH Prince X" if he retains his current style, not "of Wales". He would not be the child of The Prince of Wales.

His eldest son would enjoy this style by right of birth under the 1917 Letters Patent, while the other children would automatically be styled as the children of a Duke, even if William was not created a Duke by his grandmother, as great-grandchildren in the male-line of The Sovereign.

So, his children's styles are irrelevant to the question because the 1917 Letters Patent already state how they will be styled at birth automatically. The issue is one of giving his wife an appropriate title of her own, rather than using "Princess William".

 

[branchg]

Hold on a second...by the theory of a dukedom being unnecessary for William due to his inheritance of the Duchy of Cornwall and Rothesay, as the eldest son of the current PoW aka Duke of Cornwall/Rothesay...wouldn't that make William an earl already? Thus by marriage Catherine would become a countess...

No, because the titles currently held by Charles are restricted to the heir to the throne and are not hereditary. His children are automatically HRH Prince/Princess of the UK by right of birth, which takes precedence.

If Charles had been created a Peer prior to assuming his current titles, then you could make the argument his son could technically use the secondary peerage as a courtesy style. Similar to Edward and Sophie's children, they are automatically HRH Prince/Princess X of Y, but are styled as the children of an Earl at the choice of their parents.

 

[Sherlock221B]

Indeed, but if bestowed, the title will become a royal title having been gifted to a royal prince, thus he will be a royal Duke.

Thus he will take precedence over the non blood royal dukes...and will continue to be styled "His Royal Highness"...why does this prevent him from becoming a duke rather than an earl?

We understand that the highest-ranking hereditary title in the British peerage is that of a Duke, but the disparity between a Duke of royal blood and a Duke of noble blood is well distinguished.

Ok...see above...

 

[branchg]

Thus he will take precedence over the non blood royal dukes...and will continue to be styled "His Royal Highness"...why does this prevent him from becoming a duke rather than an earl?

The Queen can create William a Peer of any degree she wishes. Even if she created him Baron Windsor, he would take precedence ahead of all the non-royal Peers of the Realm as HRH. His rank flows from his place to The Sovereign, not the Peerage.

 

[CrownPrincess5]

Is a dukedom the only title he can receive? What about an earldom, etc?

 

[Sherlock221B]

The Queen can create William a Peer of any degree she wishes. Even if she created him Baron Windsor, he would take precedence ahead of all the non-royal Peers of the Realm as HRH. His rank flows from his place to The Sovereign, not the Peerage.

Noooooo problem....what does that have to do with him receiving a dukedom, or not, upon his marriage?

It has been suggested that he should't because he will receive the dukedoms of Cornwall and Rothesay as the PoW. Which is true...nevertheless his great-great-grandfather King George V was a blood royal duke, Duke of York, before he became PoW...in addition his older brother, Prince Albert who was the eldest son of the PoW (like William), was also bestowed a dukedom, Duke of Clarence before their father ascended to the throne as King Edward VII

Therefore why would William's future titles...PoW & the accompanying dukedoms...KING...influence if the Queen bestows a dukedom to him on his wedding day?

Could someone please clarify?

 

[Sister Morphine]

William's eldest son would be "HRH Prince X" if he retains his current style, not "of Wales". He would not be the child of The Prince of Wales.

No, his son would be HRH Prince X of Wales. You're right in that he would not be the son of The Prince of Wales, but he'd be the son of a Prince of Wales, so he'd be entitled to that titular dignity. If his father's territorial designation is Wales, his would be Wales. If William is granted the Dukedom of Cambridge, he'd be HRH Prince X of Cambridge.

Any other children that William and Catherine have while the Queen still reigns would be Lord/Lady X Windsor, until their grandfather became King, at which time they'd all be elevated to HRH Prince/Princess X of Cornwall & Y (whatever territorial designation William may receive as an earldom or dukedom on his wedding day).

 

[Sister Morphine]

Noooooo problem....what does that have to do with him receiving a dukedom, or not, upon his marriage?

It has been suggested that he should't because he will receive the dukedoms of Cornwall and Rothesay as the PoW. Which is true...nevertheless his great-great-grandfather King George V was a blood royal duke, Duke of York, before he became PoW...in addition his older brother, Prince Albert who was the eldest son of the PoW (like William), was also bestowed a dukedom, Duke of Clarence before their father ascended to the throne as King Edward VII

Therefore why would William's future titles...PoW & the accompanying dukedoms...KING...influence if the Queen bestows a dukedom to him on his wedding day?

Could someone please clarify?

They wouldn't, as it is my understanding. It is tradition for a dukedom/earldom to be offered on a prince's wedding day (and an earldom has been offered to men marrying royal princesses as well). William could very well turn it down, or he could accept. Either way, we've seen in history, as you correctly pointed out, where sovereigns have bestowed dukedoms on sons that would later receive other dukedoms upon their father's ascension to the throne. William would just have two dukedoms to his name then in England/Scotland, when Charles becomes king.

For example, say he is given the Dukedom of Sussex on his wedding day. When Charles becomes King, he'd be HRH The Prince William, Duke of Cornwall and Sussex. In Scotland, he'd be the Duke of Rothesay and Sussex. Any children he and Catherine have at that time would be HRH Prince/Princess X of Cornwall and Sussex, just like George VI was briefly HRH Prince Albert of Cornwall and York.

So it's happened before, and it may very well happen again.

 

[LauraS3514]

Although The Prince of Wales's other titles (Duke of Cornwall, Rothsay, etc.) are restricted to the oldest son AND heir apparent, The Duke of Edinburgh's titles descend in the "ordinary" way under the original Letters Patent. So, in the same way that The Earl of Wessex's son and heir James is known as "Viscount Severn" (even though he is legally Prince James of Wessex under the 1917 Letters Patent) and the heirs to the Kent and Gloucester dukedoms are Earl of St. Andrews and Earl of Ulster, Prince William could theoretically be called "Baron Greenwich" as the heir-to-the-heir of The Duke of Edinburgh ("Earl of Merioneth" being the heir's designation), just as Baron Downpatrick and Baron Culloden are the heirs-to-the-heirs of Kent and Gloucester. Royal Highnesses have traditionally not used courtesy titles, but they do still possess them under British tradition - and young James is using his.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Is a dukedom the only title he can receive? What about an earldom, etc?

He could receive any title the Queen wishes to give him.

 

[branchg]

My prediction is William would prefer not to be a Duke at this time given that he is still a young man completing his military training on base and doesn't care to be burdened with such a grand title right now. He may accept an Earldom for the sake of his wife having an appropriate title upon marriage.

Given The Queen's age, his father may be King within a decade. He may even succeed his grandmother as King if his father doesn't survive to see the throne or Charles' reign could be relatively brief. In a short period of time, he will have all the titles and responsibilities of his position, so he may desire a respite for now.

 

[Princess of Durham]

The voice of ignorance here ... what are the "responsibilities" that go along with the title of Duke?

 

[Iluvbertie]

The voice of ignorance here ... what are the "responsibilities" that go along with the title of Duke?

None.

In the past they were involved in the government of the day as they could take their seat in the House of Lords but since 1999 the vast majority have not had that role.

They may own large tracts of land and/or other property that they are responsible for managing but that could just as easily apply to any rich person.

The title is just a title with no meaning in day to day life anymore.

 

[Sherlock221B]

My prediction is William would prefer not to be a Duke at this time given that he is still a young man completing his military training on base and doesn't care to be burdened with such a grand title right now.

Burdened?! Grand Title?! He is a Commodore-in-Chief in the Royal Navy, a Honorary Air Commandant in the RAF, the Colonel of the Irish Guards, a Royal Knight in the Order of the Garter...and he should reject a dukedom because of its grandness, because it would be burdensome?

Given The Queen's age, his father may be King within a decade. He may even succeed his grandmother as King if his father doesn't survive to see the throne or Charles' reign could be relatively brief. In a short period of time, he will have all the titles and responsibilities of his position, so he may desire a respite for now.

Respite? see above...

 

[wbenson]

No, his son would be HRH Prince X of Wales. You're right in that he would not be the son of The Prince of Wales, but he'd be the son of a Prince of Wales, so he'd be entitled to that titular dignity. If his father's territorial designation is Wales, his would be Wales. If William is granted the Dukedom of Cambridge, he'd be HRH Prince X of Cambridge.

As far as I can tell, such a situation has only come up once, when Prince Alastair of Connaught (later the second Duke) was born. The question of what to call him came up at the time, and they eventually settled on having the King issue letters patent allowing him and future children of Prince Arthur of Connaught to be designated "of Connaught." I'm not sure whether that precedent would be followed automatically or whether letters parent would have to be issued. At the time, territorial designations were a more recent development, so there wasn't much guidance as to exactly how they should work. Although, if Prince William has a son before the death of the Queen, then that child will be the first great-grandchild since 1917 to be a prince, so given the organic nature of designations, there might not be a firm answer as to what the child will be called if Prince William isn't granted a peerage.

(As for Prince Alastair, the question of his style was ultimately moot, as he lost his princely styles and titles when he was only three years old, as George V removed them from great-grandchildren of the sovereign.)

 

[Lady Ann]

Burdened?! Grand Title?! He is a Commodore-in-Chief in the Royal Navy, a Honorary Air Commandant in the RAF, the Colonel of the Irish Guards, a Royal Knight in the Order of the Garter...and he should reject a dukedom because of its grandness, because it would be burdensome?.

Touche...I have too agree 100%

 

[PrincessKaimi]

William strikes me as a very polite young man who will understand the significance of his grandmother's gift and accept it, whatever it is.

I could be wrong, but that's my intuition about it.

 

[muriel]

.... just like George VI was briefly HRH Prince Albert of Cornwall and York.

Was George VI ever Prince Albert of Cornwall and York?

 

[Iluvbertie]

Was George VI ever Prince Albert of Cornwall and York?

Yes - while his father was Duke of Cornwall and York George VI would have been Prince Albert of Cornwall and York.

That was from January - November 1901.

 

[muriel]

Yes - while his father was Duke of Cornwall and York George VI would have been Prince Albert of Cornwall and York.

That was from January - November 1901.

Many thanks for that.

 

[Royal_Eagle]

Yes - while his father was Duke of Cornwall and York George VI would have been Prince Albert of Cornwall and York.

That was from January - November 1901.

Yep, his father was 2nd son and was granted Dukedom of York, but when his elder brother passed away, he immediately became Duke of Cornwall. I had the same reaction and checked on it.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Yep, his father was 2nd son and was granted Dukedom of York, but when his elder brother passed away, he immediately became Duke of Cornwall. I had the same reaction and checked on it.

George V didn't became Duke of Cornwall on the death of his older brother. He had to wait nearly another 9 years after Eddy's death before getting the Cornwall title. His father held that title throughout Eddy's life.

George VI's father, George V, was created Duke of York by Queen Victoria in May 1892. His older brother died shortly before this happened, in January 1892. Goerge married in 1893 so he was created a Duke the year before his marriage but only months after he became 2nd in line to the throne after the death of his older brother. His father was the Prince of Wales at the time.

In 1901 Victoria died and George V automatically took the titles Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay etc - the same ones Charles took at the exact instant his mother became Queen and that William will assume the instant the present Queen dies (unless Charles has already died).

George V was known throughout most of 1901 as Duke of Cornwall and York until his father decided to create him Prince of Wales in November.

Dates: 1841 Edward VII born and becomes Duke of Cornwall etc
1890 Albert Victor created Duke of Clarence and Avondale
1892 Albert Victor dies
1892 George created Duke of York
1901 Victoria dies, George automatically becomes Duke of Cornwall etc as father becomes Edward VII, holds titles as Duke of Cornwall and York (it was with those titles that he opened the first ever Australian Parliament in May 1901).
1901 George V created Prince of Wales.

 

[Chris77]

I really have no speculation on the titles of Prince William and Catherine. I was thinking that maybe the Queen will keep the Prince title, since that is how we all know him, etc. But then there's the question of th making Catherine Princess, and apparently they are members of the royal family who have more claim to the title Princess and aren't. (I could be wrong here though)

My final thoughs are HRH Prince William and HRH Princess William (I think that's how it goes - correct me if I'm wrong - I'm a little new to this)

 

[Royal_Eagle]

George V didn't became Duke of Cornwall on the death of his older brother. He had to wait nearly another 9 years after Eddy's death before getting the Cornwall title. His father held that title throughout Eddy's life.

Oops, I stand corrected--thanks! I must have checked too quickly.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I really have no speculation on the titles of Prince William and Catherine. I was thinking that maybe the Queen will keep the Prince title, since that is how we all know him, etc. But then there's the question of th making Catherine Princess, and apparently they are members of the royal family who have more claim to the title Princess and aren't. (I could be wrong here though)

My final thoughs are HRH Prince William and HRH Princess William (I think that's how it goes - correct me if I'm wrong - I'm a little new to this)

William will still be Prince William even with a title.

The difference will be how they are referred to officially in things like the Court Circular - with no title it will by HRH Prince and Princess William of Wales.

I see no problem with that - no difference to Duke and Duchess of xxxx - she is still giving up her own identity to take on his so does it matter what title he uses - she will still only get it through marriage.

 

[Chris77]

Ah, that makes sense. Thank you!