Prince William and Catherine Middleton Possible Titles

[Sister Morphine]

You keep putting an extra "e" in Cambridge. Stop that! The minor pedant in me gets distracted by it. LOL

 

[melissaadrian]

Yes. As the wife of the Prince of Wales, Catherine will be HRH The Princess William, Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall, so forth and so on. Camilla will be Queen (she better be, anyway), so she'll cease to have those titles, as her husband will no longer carry them.

I hope so too. I honestly think Camilla should have been Princess of Wales. Yes it would have caused a stir at first, but things would calm. She is the wife of the Prince of Wales. I hope she takes the title of Queen consort and not princess, when Charles is king. Diana is dead, nothing is bringing her back, and even if it did she'd still be the ex. Will and Harry have accepted her into their lives and family, support her and their father's marriage, and they are Diana's children. I'd be upset if Camilla continues to pander, and does not take the title queen.

 

[melissaadrian]

You keep putting an extra "e" in Cambridge. Stop that! The minor pedant in me gets distracted by it. LOL

Wow I'm sorry maybe it's my Oxford superiority complex shinning through.

 

[texankitcat]

I hope so too. I honestly think Camilla should have been Princess of Wales. Yes it would have caused a stir at first, but things would calm. She is the wife of the Prince of Wales. I hope she takes the title of Queen consort and not princess, when Charles is king. Diana is dead, nothing is bringing her back, and even if it did she'd still be the ex. Will and Harry have accepted her into their lives and family, support her and their father's marriage, and they are Diana's children. I'd be upset if Camilla continues to pander, and does not take the title queen.

I don't think Camilla would have ever been accepted as Princess of Wales. Better to let that title rest until (or if) William is invested as the Prince of Wales. I do however agree that Camilla should be be titled Queen Consort rather than Princess Consort. No one will ever forget Diana, however it's time to let the living live their lives.

 

[branchg]

Because Prince/Princess of Wales is a peerage. It is like Duke and Duchess of Cornwall, or Earl and Countess of Wessex. If Charles was simply HRH Prince Charles of the United Kingdom, with no peerage, she would be Princess Charles of the United Kingdom. It is a peerage. His children carry the title of prince x of wales, as children of his peerage.

Prince William of Wales is a title not a peerage. Therefore his wife will be Princess William of Wales. If he is given a peerage, say Duke of Camebridge, then she will be entitled to the rank. Camilla is entitled to Princess of Wales, Catherine to her husband's peerage, so Duchess of Camebridge.

Actually, The Prince of Wales is not a Peerage. It is a title that is conferred by The Sovereign and is not hereditary. The Dukedom of Cornwall is a Peerage, but one that is restricted to the eldest son of The Sovereign who is the heir to the throne. If the heir dies with male issue, it reverts to the Crown, rather than the next eldest son of The Sovereign.

"Prince William of Wales" is a style conferred by right of birth as a male-line grandson of The Sovereign. It reflects royal rank and precedence but is a courtesy only. Once created a Duke or Earl, William will then have a title.

 

[branchg]

I honestly think Camilla should have been Princess of Wales.

Camilla is The Princess of Wales, she just chose not to use her senior title out of respect to the memory of Diana, who died styled as Princess of Wales and was the mother of the future king.

When Charles becomes King, as his wife, Camilla is automatically HM The Queen and nothing else applies. It will require an Act of Parliament and consent from the Crown Commonwealth nations for her to be styled as "HRH The Princess Consort" because she can only hold whatever titles her husband does. She does not have a title in her own right.

 

[jemagre]

Because that's how it's done when a woman marries into a royal family -- she receives the feminine form of her husband's title(s). It would be akin to a woman marrying into your standard run-of-the-mill family and either taking her husband's last name, or hyphenating it with her maiden name.



She can't be Mrs. Catherine Middleton because she's not marrying a man whose last name is Middleton. She's marrying a man who in essence, has no last name at all.



Correct. Although on the banns of marriage, he may do as his aunt and uncle (and I believe his father) did, and list his last name as Mountbatten-Windsor, though I don't think that's required. His signature is just "William", and that's it.



She would be HRH Princess William of Wales, because that's the feminine form of her husband's title/style, which I mentioned above. She would not be Mrs. Catherine Wales, because Wales is not his last name. When he and Harry were in school (much like Beatrice and Eugenie would use York), he would use Wales as a last name if he needed one, but it's not his legal surname.

Mrs. Catherine Middleton was my attempt at keeping her maiden name(by choosing not to take her husbands name) while still acknowledging her marriage. Mrs. Catherine Wales was also an idea based on William using the last name of Wales for military reasons. My theory was that she would legally have a title but decide not to use therefore Mrs. Catherine Wales. I am not sure if that is even the case with titles but I thought I would put it out there. Considering all of the creations they come up with in the title department they could come up with some non-title names pretty easily.

Thanks for the answer on my question about William's last name. I was also wondering if anyone knows if there has been a female royal that has refused/decided not to use a title when offered one when she married into the family? I know Captain Mark Phillips turned one down but a women?

 

[melissaadrian]

Camilla is The Princess of Wales, she just chose not to use her senior title out of respect to the memory of Diana, who died styled as Princess of Wales and was the mother of the future king.

When Charles becomes King, as his wife, Camilla is automatically HM The Queen and nothing else applies. It will require an Act of Parliament and consent from the Crown Commonwealth nations for her to be styled as "HRH The Princess Consort" because she can only hold whatever titles her husband does. She does not have a title in her own right.

True enough she is Princess of Wales, but she is not called it. If she had been introduced by the royal family as HRH The Princess of Wales on her marriage, no matter how much people bitched and moaned, that is what she would have been called. The media would not have lowered her down to the rank of Duchess of Cornwall in spite. I really don't know why Camilla needed to show 'respect' to her husband's ex wife. Diana was an amazing woman, but she was no innocent in the marriage either. I wonder if she lived, and she had married Dodi, or that doctor she was involved in, how public opinion would have shifted. She would no longer have been the spurned wife, injured party and moved on. She died still the single beautiful princess whose fairy book romance was destroyed by Camilla, who has been painted as the evil witch of the west. I think it was likely more respect for her stepsons, then for their dead mother, that she used the title of Duchess of Cornwall and not Princess.

 

[melissaadrian]

Actually, The Prince of Wales is not a Peerage. It is a title that is conferred by The Sovereign and is not hereditary. The Dukedom of Cornwall is a Peerage, but one that is restricted to the eldest son of The Sovereign who is the heir to the throne. If the heir dies with male issue, it reverts to the Crown, rather than the next eldest son of The Sovereign.

"Prince William of Wales" is a style conferred by right of birth as a male-line grandson of The Sovereign. It reflects royal rank and precedence but is a courtesy only. Once created a Duke or Earl, William will then have a title.

Prince of Wales is listed as a peerage in burkes. It is one that is a recreated for every single holder, but still is. And I was under the impression those in the male line, are princes of the realm in their own right, not courtesy titles, that is why Will is Prince, and not one of his father's lesser titles, as would be customary for an heir of a Duke or Earl ie. James Wessex being viscount severn.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Prince of Wales is listed as a peerage in burkes. It is one that is a recreated for every single holder, but still is. And I was under the impression those in the male line, are princes of the realm in their own right, not courtesy titles, that is why Will is Prince, and not one of his father's lesser titles, as would be customary for an heir of a Duke or Earl ie. James Wessex being viscount severn.

As male line grandsons of the monarch William and Harry are Princes in their own right but the 'of Wales' is a courtesy styling. It shows whose sons they are. The same with Beatrice and Eugenie. As male line granddaughters of the monarch they are automatically Princesses in their own right but the 'of York' style is a courtesy that identifies them as the children of the Duke of York.

Imagine is Andrew has a son now and his new wife's father's name is William so Andrew decides he wants to name that son William - to distinguish which Prince William is being referred to the 'of Wales' and 'or York' styling is used.

 

[lwbohm]

I doubt the queen will make catherine a princess in her own right.
She would then outrank the princess royal.
HM only daughter.
She will be most likley granted the title HRH which is the most important part.
The queen may bestow a dukedom on her grandson the gift would be for him
And then she would be known as HRH princess william duchess of ........
As far as comparing her to prince phillip.
He is the soveriegns husband much like prince albert.
Queen victoria actually wanted to make him king consort.
I very much doubt HM will make her a princess in her own right.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I doubt the queen will make catherine a princess in her own right.
She would then outrank the princess royal.
HM only daughter.
She will be most likley granted the title HRH which is the most important part.
The queen may bestow a dukedom on her grandson the gift would be for him
And then she would be known as HRH princess william duchess of ........
As far as comparing her to prince phillip.
He is the soveriegns husband much like prince albert.
Queen victoria actually wanted to make him king consort.
I very much doubt HM will make her a princess in her own right.

Even if the Queen made Catherine a princess in her own right, she wouldn't outrank the Princess Royal. With or without that distinction, Catherine's place in the Order of Precedence is determined by the rank of her husband. So where William ranks in the Order of Gentlemen is where Catherine's rank in the Order of Ladies will be. Now, when Charles is King, Catherine I believe would outrank her, as the wife of the heir to the throne. However right now, she would not.

It's not that she will "most likely" be granted the style HRH, she will get it. William is HRH Prince William of Wales, and she will be HRH Princess William of Wales unless the Queen grants William a dukedom on his wedding day, at which point she'd be HRH The Duchess of X. I don't think she'd make her a princess in her own right anyway, because she didn't do that for either of her cousin's wives, or her daughters-in-law, so I'd hardly see how it would be fair.

 

[MRSJ]

Even if the Queen made Catherine a princess in her own right, she wouldn't outrank the Princess Royal. With or without that distinction, Catherine's place in the Order of Precedence is determined by the rank of her husband. So where William ranks in the Order of Gentlemen is where Catherine's rank in the Order of Ladies will be. Now, when Charles is King, Catherine I believe would outrank her, as the wife of the heir to the throne. However right now, she would not..

Official precedence or when men are in the room as wife of William I believe Catherine outranks Anne but in informal events/within the RF events or with no men she will not outrank Anne for sure, the same rules apply to Camilla .....I believe it's on the BRF website and has been discussed many times in this thread so I hope I remembered correctly
There is a BRF precedence thread somewhere with way more info
Edit- see below -

The Queen recently changed the order of precedence for private occasions, putting the Duchess of Cornwall fourth in the order of precedence, after herself, the Princess Royal, and Princess Alexandra, contrary to the usual position of the heir's consort. The Duchess of Cornwall continues to rank second in the order of precedence at official occasions, such as state dinners.
The Court Circular also lists Prince William of Wales above his uncles, Prince Andrew, Duke of York, and Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex, which suggests that he takes precedence over them.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I don't see how William could take precedence over his uncles -- they are sons of the sovereign, he isn't. Now, when Charles is king, he will take precedence over them, as they will be just brothers of the sovereign.

At official occasions, if Camilla ranks second behind the Queen as wife of the heir to the throne, wouldn't the Countess of Wessex follow, with Anne and then Catherine following her?

 

[MRSJ]

I don't see how William could take precedence over his uncles -- they are sons of the sovereign, he isn't. Now, when Charles is king, he will take precedence over them, as they will be just brothers of the sovereign.

At official occasions, if Camilla ranks second behind the Queen as wife of the heir to the throne, wouldn't the Countess of Wessex follow, with Anne and then Catherine following her?

Edit- ok I re read the thread and Sister you're right William does not outrank his Uncles officially just his Aunt ...so Catherine will be ahead of Anne but not Camilla and Sophie in the official precedence but Anne (and others) are ahead of Camilla and Catherine in informal precedence due to her being Princess of Royal Blood sorry about the confusion!

 

[lwbohm]

No worries.

 

[Lady Gudgeon]

I'm so confused about the order of precedence. Is it just completely different then from the order of succession? Is it just different so the Queen can put people in any order she likes (if, say, a ne'er do well cousin were the heir)?

I think the Queen's visit to Cambridge a few days before the wedding is a sign and she'll make the big announcement there...so I'm voting for a Dukedom of Cambridge for Wills, making Kate a Duchess April 29 seems so far away...I'm so impatient.

 

[MRSJ]

I'm so confused about the order of precedence. Is it just completely different then from the order of succession? Is it just different so the Queen can put people in any order she likes (if, say, a ne'er do well cousin were the heir)?.

Yes precedence and succession are 2 different things and the short answer is yes the Queen can issue LPs to change the order of precedence when she wants but not succesion.....

 

[Iluvbertie]

I'm so confused about the order of precedence. Is it just completely different then from the order of succession? Is it just different so the Queen can put people in any order she likes (if, say, a ne'er do well cousin were the heir)?

I think the Queen's visit to Cambridge a few days before the wedding is a sign and she'll make the big announcement there...so I'm voting for a Dukedom of Cambridge for Wills, making Kate a Duchess April 29 seems so far away...I'm so impatient.

Order of precedence is based on relationship to the monarch - so the moanrch's children rank ahead of her grandchildren.

Order of succession is based on who will be the next monarch etc.

So William, as the grandson of the monarch ranks behind all four of the Queen's children in precedence but ahead of all but his father in the line of succession. William's precedence will change when Charles becomes King as he and Harry will move ahead of Charles' siblings.

The Queen has decided though that Princesses of the Blood Royal rank ahead of incomers when only the women are present - and although it hasn't been stated as such I wonder if Beatrice and Eugenie are now ahead of Camilla when only women are present, as Princesses born? Of course we may never know as they don't do royal duties and so it wouldn't be obvious at anything where the press would be present.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Yes precedence and succession are 2 different things and the short answer is yes the Queen can issue LPs to change the order of precedence when she wants but not succesion.....

The Queen doesn't issue LPs to change precedence but it is determined by the monarch although there are rules that normally apply - e.g. children of the monarch always ahead of grandchildren.

What the Queen did with the announcement about Anne and Alexandra being ahead of Camilla was unusual but wasn't done by LPs - just an announcement to put royals born ahead of royals by marriage.

 

[MRSJ]

The Queen doesn't issue LPs to change precedence but it is determined by the monarch although there are rules that normally apply - e.g. children of the monarch always ahead of grandchildren.

What the Queen did with the announcement about Anne and Alexandra being ahead of Camilla was unusual but wasn't done by LPs - just an announcement to put royals born ahead of royals by marriage.

I apologize - thank you, I'm still working on the getting these things totally straight!

 

[Lady Gudgeon]

Thanks to you both. Seems so confusing to have two different ways to "order" people - although, as you say Iluvbertie, one can be changed by current queen/king and one is set. And it does make sense that QE would want PA/PA/PE ahead of grandchildren.

All so interesting (and complicated)...

 

[Zonk]

Excellent questions but so that the thread isn't thrown off track, if there are any additional questions regarding the order of precedence, please continue the discussion here http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/order-of-precedence-6536-24.html .

Zonk
British Forums Moderator

 

[Zonk]

Posts that discuss the Edward, Earl of Wessex and the future of the Duke of Edinburgh title have been copied here http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/questions-about-styles-and-titles-258-43.html .

Let's stay on topic for a Title for William, Catherine and Family.

 

[muriel]

Royal Wedding: What title will William take? - Telegraph

Royal Wedding: What title will William take?

Here are some of the dukedoms Prince William could be given on his wedding day

 

[Diarist]

I do not think that Catherine will be made a princess in her own right. For a start, it is not the custom of the British Royal Family to honour new members in this way.

As to whether Prince Williams is made a Royal Duke, could I, with appropriate humility as this is my first post, make a couple of points?

1. To me, there seems to be a slight trend to moving away from creating Royal Dukes; when Prince Edward was about to be married, there was speculation that he would be created Duke of Sussex / Cambridge etc. In the end, as we know, he was created Earl of Wessex, which I think took most royal watchers by surprise, not only because he was not created a Royal Duke [although he is in line to inherit the title of Duke of Edinburgh when that title reverts to the Crown on the death of his father] but also because Wessex was not an existing English County.

My second reason is this: Prince William is currently a serving RAF Officer. Over the past few months, I have detected another trend, namely for him to be living very much more of what I will have to call a 'private' type of life in his 'non-royal working life'. For example, a few weeks ago, it was recorded that Prince William and Catherine [when at their home in Wales] like to 'look after themselves' and do not wish to have staff. It is also a fact that they have been seen doing their own shopping in nearby towns and villages etc. This, if you think about it, is quite a departure from the traditional way that newly-married royalty has conducted their lives in even the more recent times.

Of course we cannot know what is in the Queen's mind, but I would not be totally surprised if the young couple are not given such a formal 'handle' right at the start of their married life together. The Queen will of course be able to bestow whatever Royal Title she feels appropriate at at an appropriate time - this might, for example, be at the end of Prince William's immediate service career as a serving officer or perhaps when the couple have children.

Alex

 

[Diarist]

It's not that she will "most likely" be granted the style HRH, she will get it.

Whilst I am quite sure that Catherine will be created 'HRH', the example of the Duchess of Windsor would appear to indicate that although a wife marrying into the Royal Family is entitled to use her husband's 'style and title' [the same as any other English lady who marries - (the rules are slightly different in Scotland) for example Miss Susan Johnson marries Mr Edward Smythe and therefore is entitled to be known as Mrs Edward Smythe], Wallis Simpson, although she became Duchess of Windsor, was expressly NOT granted the right to use the honorific HRH'

Alex

 

[Royal_Eagle]

Whilst I am quite sure that Catherine will be created 'HRH', the example of the Duchess of Windsor would appear to indicate that although a wife marrying into the Royal Family is entitled to use her husband's 'style and title' [the same as any other English lady who marries - (the rules are slightly different in Scotland) for example Miss Susan Johnson marries Mr Edward Smythe and therefore is entitled to be known as Mrs Edward Smythe], Wallis Simpson, although she became Duchess of Windsor, was expressly NOT granted the right to use the honorific HRH'

Alex

The reason Wallis Simpson was expressly NOT granted HRH was the Royal Family was very angry with the Duke for abdicating the Throne, as well as concerns that the marriage wouldn't last and if they divorced, Wallis would be able to take her "HRH" with her. There's a lot more information about this in the thread on the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.

You can't really compare Wallis to Catherine though--she WILL get HRH, if only in formal occasions. They may not use that all the time, but they will have it. By default, a woman marrying into the Royal Family always get her husband's titles and styles, including HRH if her husband is a HRH. But they can choose not to use the titles or styles if they don't want to.

So it's really just apple and orange comparison.

 

[Royal_Eagle]

I do not think that Catherine will be made a princess in her own right. For a start, it is not the custom of the British Royal Family to honour new members in this way.

As to whether Prince Williams is made a Royal Duke, could I, with appropriate humility as this is my first post, make a couple of points?

1. To me, there seems to be a slight trend to moving away from creating Royal Dukes; when Prince Edward was about to be married, there was speculation that he would be created Duke of Sussex / Cambridge etc. In the end, as we know, he was created Earl of Wessex, which I think took most royal watchers by surprise, not only because he was not created a Royal Duke [although he is in line to inherit the title of Duke of Edinburgh when that title reverts to the Crown on the death of his father] but also because Wessex was not an existing English County.

My second reason is this: Prince William is currently a serving RAF Officer. Over the past few months, I have detected another trend, namely for him to be living very much more of what I will have to call a 'private' type of life in his 'non-royal working life'. For example, a few weeks ago, it was recorded that Prince William and Catherine [when at their home in Wales] like to 'look after themselves' and do not wish to have staff. It is also a fact that they have been seen doing their own shopping in nearby towns and villages etc. This, if you think about it, is quite a departure from the traditional way that newly-married royalty has conducted their lives in even the more recent times.

Of course we cannot know what is in the Queen's mind, but I would not be totally surprised if the young couple are not given such a formal 'handle' right at the start of their married life together. The Queen will of course be able to bestow whatever Royal Title she feels appropriate at at an appropriate time - this might, for example, be at the end of Prince William's immediate service career as a serving officer or perhaps when the couple have children.

Alex

You're certainly right about the trend away from Royal Dukedoms. However because Prince William is a Heir Apparent (behind his father), he will probably get one on his marriage, and WILL get one once his Dad becomes King (he inherits the Duchy of Cornwall), while other members, including Prince Harry might not a dukedom (especially after it's clear he will probably not ascend to the throne because Prince William have children) because they're not as close to the Throne.

Again you're right that they want to lead a more normal life, but being a Duke isn't going to get in the way of doing that though. One of the main reason he may get a Dukedom is so Catherine won't have to be called Princess William (officially anyway), but can be called by Duchess of X (or Countess of X or the feminine form of whatever title Prince William get).

I should point out though that Prince Edward is really not in the line to get Dukedom of Edinburgh, as it can only go to Prince Charles. There's a thread about that on the top level of British Royalty forum.

And before I forget, welcome!

 

[Diarist]

The reason Wallis Simpson was expressly NOT granted HRH was the Royal Family was very angry with the Duke for abdicating the Throne, as well as concerns that the marriage wouldn't last and if they divorced, Wallis would be able to take her "HRH" with her. There's a lot more information about this in the thread on the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.

You can't really compare Wallis to Catherine though--she WILL get HRH, if only in formal occasions. They may not use that all the time, but they will have it. By default, a woman marrying into the Royal Family always get her husband's titles and styles, including HRH if her husband is a HRH. But they can choose not to use the titles or styles if they don't want to.

So it's really just apple and orange comparison.

Sorry, I appear not to have made my point clearly enough - I fully accept that Catherine will be made HRH, the point I was tyring to make is that use of this honorific is not actually automatic - using the Duchess of Windsor as an example. Yes, you are quite right, of course it reflected anger and I am not disputing this, I was just trying to explain that the HRH is in the nature of being in the gift of the queen.

Alex