Prince William and Catherine Middleton Possible Titles

[HRHHermione]

And I understand that too- that there's a lot of history and tradition here and that the Royal Family only goes against tradition in very specific and methodical ways- it takes a very long time for them to change anything. I just see the time being right to change this- long after most married women have changed how they're addressed.

Also, we already know she'll be referred to by the press as Princess Catherine just as Princess Diana was. I think that allowing her to formally use the title she'll be called most of her life anyway would be fantastic.

But we'll see. I know what I'd like to see happen, but I can't begin to predict what the Queen will actually do!

 

[rossop7]

I don't even think the press will call her Princess Catherine even if that ends up being her official title, I see them going with Princess Kate! The tabloid press anyway.

 

[MRSJ]

I wonder if when/if William is made Prince of Wales will Catherine choose to be known as Princess of Wales or would she stay with Duchess of Cromwell in order to (maybe) prevent the comparasions with her mother in law Diana? Do you think the comparassiond will increase/decrease or remain the same if she were to be known as Princess of Wales one day?

 

[HRHHermione]

I'm sure she will be known as Princess of Wales- I believe the Duchess of Cornwall avoids it purely to avoid being accused of taking Diana's place. And as for Catherine- if the Queen lives as long as the Queen Mother did, Catherine will have quite some time to establish her own personality before becoming Princess of Wales and that should help stop the Diana comparisons.

 

[Zonk]

Honestly, I think by the time Catherine becomes Princess of Wales (if that title is still an option)...enough time will have passed that no one will have an issue with it.

Frankly, I think they should have just called Camilla the Princess of Wales from the get go but that is the topic of another thread

 

[Sister Morphine]

I wonder if when/if William is made Prince of Wales will Catherine choose to be known as Princess of Wales or would she stay with Duchess of Cromwell in order to (maybe) prevent the comparasions with her mother in law Diana? Do you think the comparassiond will increase/decrease or remain the same if she were to be known as Princess of Wales one day?

She'll be the Duchess of Cornwall as William would be the Duke of Cornwall, but Princess of Wales is the senior of all the titles she'll assume, and that's what she'll be titled as.

Camilla is legally The Princess of Wales and will be until she's Queen. She chooses to use one of her lesser titles because apparently someone would get their knickers knotted over it otherwise and she wanted to avoid such an occurrence, which is just awful.

 

[MRSJ]

Yes I understand- but if she is Princess of Wales Catherine could chose not to use it like Camilla has, yes? Hence my hypothetical question which has been answers well I think so thank you everyone!

 

[zembla]

Duke and Duchess of Clarence?

EPHRAIM HARDCASTLE: Prince William to become the Duke of Clarence | Mail Online

 

[rossop7]

I don't think Kate will feel the need to avoid the Princess of Wales/Diana comparison like Camilla does, simply because she isn't Camilla.

In my view had Charles married anyone other than Camilla then that wife would have taken the Princess of Wales title with nowhere near as much fuss as when Charles married Camilla, it was purely down to the fact he was marrying Camilla (with all her direct history with him & Diana & being known as the "3rd person" etc) that made it hard for her to take the title previously held by Diana. Had Charles met & married some entirely new woman who had never had any contact whatsoever with Diana & didn't have any previous media reputation like Camilla has/had then I doubt there would have been much fuss at all over the Princess of Wales title going to a new woman/wife. Thus I think when/if Kate is able to use it I think she'll be free to use it without the fuss that surrounds Camilla using it.

 

[rossop7]

Duke and Duchess of Clarence?

EPHRAIM HARDCASTLE: Prince William to become the Duke of Clarence | Mail Online

Oh. This is really silly but I don't actually like the title Duke/Duchess of Clarence. The word Clarence just makes me think of cows for some absurd reason...I think it's because of some tv show in my youth I've just got a Clarence=cow link stuck in my head. Not that my opinion should hold sway over what the Queen decides!

I'm still hoping for Cambridge or some other place that no-one has suggested as of yet & hasn't been considered/thought of yet.

 

[jdcharlie]

The funny thing is that the article doesn't actually say that he'll become the Duke of Clarence, only that William will be awarded a Dukedom. I like Cambridge too.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Yes I understand- but if she is Princess of Wales Catherine could chose not to use it like Camilla has, yes? Hence my hypothetical question which has been answers well I think so thank you everyone!

Well yes, if Catherine for whatever reason didn't want to be styled as the Princess of Wales, she could do what Camilla has done and use one of Williams other titles instead. However it's almost totally unlikely that will happen.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Really? I am surprised that you think this is a possibility. What changed your mind on the Queen considering this title for Catherine?

I think that the Queen simply will let William do what he wants and according to reports he wants that so she will let him have it.

... I'd much rather see Catherine known as Princess Catherine than Princess William and I think the average person would also find Princess William a very off putting way to address her.

As they have no problem with Princess Michael of Kent why would they have a problem with Princess William of Wales?
If, as I suspect, the Queen allows Catherine to be Princess Catherine officially I hope they also allow Princess Michael to be Princess Marie-Christine)

Camilla...chooses to use one of her lesser titles...

I am being picky I know but I really don't think Cornwall is a 'lesser' title as that implies inferior. I prefer something like 'other' 'longer-held' for instance.
He was Duke of Cornwall for over 6 years before becoming Prince of Wales - so you could argue that Camilla is using the older of his titles rather then the 'lesser'.

Personal preference I know but it is also harder to be Duke of Cornwall than Prince of Wales- for instance if Charles dies before the Queen William could become Prince of Wales but he couldn't become Duke of Cornwall.

 

[Zonk]

As they have no problem with Princess Michael of Kent why would they have a problem with Princess William of Wales?

If, as I suspect, the Queen allows Catherine to be Princess Catherine officially I hope they also allow Princess Michael to be Princess Marie-Christine)

And that is one of my sticking points...if Catherine becomes Princess Catherine than Marie Christine should be Marie Christine and than what is to stop Sophie from no longer going by the Countess of Wessex and now just Princess Sophie, Princess Camilla, Princess Brigitte, etc.

For one person? I think she will be Duchess of Whatever, and if William wants to change it he can that when he has sons.

 

[melissaadrian]

I am being picky I know but I really don't think Cornwall is a 'lesser' title as that implies inferior...

A duke is a lesser title then a prince, whether you like it or not. In seniority, prince of wales comes second only to the monarch and their consort. And perhaps a dowager consort, not sure about that.

 

[cmkrcwi]

William will not cease being Prince William if he gets a Dukedom...

Maybe a simpler way of putting it is that if William is given a dukedom, he will be a Royal Duke with the rank of a Prince of the United Kingdom. However, he will no longer officially be known as Prince William. Of course, most people will continue to refer to him that way, but that will not be his official title. As his wife, Kate will be a Royal Duchess with the rank of Princess of the United Kingdom. However, because William will no longer be known officially as Prince William, she will not be Princess William. More than likely, she will be known popularly as Princess Kate much as William's mother was always Princess Di or Diana.

 

[texankitcat]

And that is one of my sticking points...if Catherine becomes Princess Catherine than Marie Christine should be Marie Christine and than what is to stop Sophie from no longer going by the Countess of Wessex and now just Princess Sophie, Princess Camilla, Princess Brigitte, etc.

For one person? I think she will be Duchess of Whatever, and if William wants to change it he can that when he has sons.

Princess Michael has been known as Princess Michael for years. However, if the Queen gives Kate the style of Princess Catherine, then it should absolutely be an option for Marie Christine if she wants to change it at this point in her life.

I don't know that Sophie cares about being called Princess. I assume that she and Prince Edward discussed titles prior to marrying since Edward chose the Earl of Wessex title.

Camilla IS the Princess of Wales as we know.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I am being picky I know but I really don't think Cornwall is a 'lesser' title as that implies inferior.

I prefer something like 'other' 'longer-held' for instance.

He was Duke of Cornwall for over 6 years before becoming Prince of Wales - so you could argue that Camilla is using the older of his titles rather then the 'lesser'.

Personal preference I know but it is also harder to be Duke of Cornwall than Prince of Wales- for instance if Charles dies before the Queen William could become Prince of Wales but he couldn't become Duke of Cornwall.

Inferior is the appropriate word to use. Duke of Cornwall is an inferior title to Prince of Wales, not because it's a substandard title, or one of poor quality but because a royal duke ranks below a royal prince. So a royal princely title is superior to that of a royal ducal title.

Inferior | Define Inferior at Dictionary.com

You think I'm using the 3rd or 4th definition, when I'm using the 1st. We're talking about ranks, and their positions in the hierarchy, not abstract qualities related to worthiness.

 

[Mermaid1962]

A grandmother clause, so to speak.
Grandfather clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, if the Queen gives Kate the style of Princess Catherine, then it should absolutely be an option for Marie Christine if she wants to change it at this point in her life.

 

[Zonk]

Princess Michael has been known as Princess Michael for years. However, if the Queen gives Kate the style of Princess Catherine, then it should absolutely be an option for Marie Christine if she wants to change it at this point in her life.

I don't know that Sophie cares about being called Princess. I assume that she and Prince Edward discussed titles prior to marrying since Edward chose the Earl of Wessex title.

Camilla IS the Princess of Wales as we know.

I know that..my point is that if Catherine is to be called Princess Catherine, then Camilla should be referred to as Princess Camilla. Not the Princess of Wales, but a Princess in her own right.

It should be applicable to everyone and not just Catherine.

 

[HRHHermione]

A grandmother clause, so to speak.
Grandfather clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And I can actually see how that shouldn't be the case, as the Kents are much further down in the line of succession. That's why I think this is a good opportunity to set precedent for the next generation- with the highest ranking royals of the next generation.

 

[Iluvbertie]

A duke is a lesser title then a prince, whether you like it or not. In seniority, prince of wales comes second only to the monarch and their consort. And perhaps a dowager consort, not sure about that.

In seniority the Duke of Cornwall comes second only to the monarch and their consort as well.

The Duke of Cornwall title is the automatic title, which is why I don't like the term 'lesser' for the title but rather the longer held title - with regard to Camilla using Duchess of Cornwall.

I would also argue that as the Duke of Cornwall title has restrictions on it that the Prince of Wales title doesn't it is actually more selective - e.g. the monarch could, if they wish, give the Prince of Wales title to a second son but they have no control over the Duke of Cornwall title.

As the holder of both is the same person it is semantics of course but I simply hate the word 'lesser' with its implications that Camilla isn't worthy of being Charles' consort.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Inferior is the appropriate word to use. Duke of Cornwall is an inferior title to Prince of Wales, not because it's a substandard title, or one of poor quality but because a royal duke ranks below a royal prince. So a royal princely title is superior to that of a royal ducal title.

Inferior | Define Inferior at Dictionary.com

You think I'm using the 3rd or 4th definition, when I'm using the 1st. We're talking about ranks, and their positions in the hierarchy, not abstract qualities related to worthiness.

However the Duke of Cornwall title can only be held by the eldest son of the monarch who is also the heir to the throne.

Technically the monarch could create anyone Prince of Wales - although precedent says that it is only given to the heir to the throne.

In this situation - as opposed to the normal situation with ranks - I would argue that Duke of Cornwall is not inferior to Prince of Wales - simply because the Duke title is automatice whereas the Prince title is one that has to be conferred and is able to be held by a person who can't hold the Duke of Cornwall title e.g. George III couldn't be Duke of Cornwall because he wasn't in the right relationship to the monarch - thus the Prince of Wales title was clearly an inferior title as it could be given to someone who didn't qualify for the Duke of Cornwall title.

 

[branchg]

Being a Prince or Princess of the UK is a style only. Until raised to the Peerage, the members of the royal family who are Princes and Princesses are commoners, albeit with royal rank and precedence ahead of the non-royal Peers of the Realm.

The Duke of Cornwall is the senior title of the heir to the throne and eldest son of The Sovereign as the first dukedom created in England. The Prince of Wales is superior only because it is created by The Sovereign for their male heir, but it is technically not a Peerage of the Realm.

I do not believe The Queen will allow Catherine the style of "Princess Catherine" upon marriage to William. She will be styled as "HRH The Duchess of X" or "HRH Princess William" as with any woman who marries into the family.

 

[HRHHermione]

I see the argument for why royal princely status outranks royal ducal status, although I also understand why Duke of Cornwall is an extremely prestigious title with more criteria than Prince of Wales.

 

[branchg]

I see the argument for why royal princely status outranks royal ducal status, although I also understand why Duke of Cornwall is an extremely prestigious title with more criteria than Prince of Wales.

Royal rank flows from the the fount of honour to the lineal descendants in line of succession as regulated by the will of the Crown. The Letters Patent of 1917 state the children of The Sovereign and the male-line grandchildren of The Sovereign are entitled to the style and attribute of HRH Prince/Princess X.

When created a Peer, this becomes their hereditary title that passes on through the male heirs of the body, who eventually lose royal rank as HRH. For that reason, being a Royal Duke is superior to being just a Prince of the UK.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Yes, but Charles is more than just a Prince of the UK, he's the Prince of Wales, a title that outranks just your garden variety prince of the UK.

 

[HRHHermione]

Royal rank flows from the the fount of honour to the lineal descendants in line of succession as regulated by the will of the Crown. The Letters Patent of 1917 state the children of The Sovereign and the male-line grandchildren of The Sovereign are entitled to the style and attribute of HRH Prince/Princess X.

When created a Peer, this becomes their hereditary title that passes on through the male heirs of the body, who eventually lose royal rank as HRH. For that reason, being a Royal Duke is superior to being just a Prince of the UK.

See, and that's an excellent point... that a ducal title can be passed down and is therefore superior. But I'd also argue that as a princely title is only held by those closest to the reigning monarch, IT is superior

That's the fascinating thing about royal history- it's very rarely an either/or and I think good arguments can be made in both directions.

 

[wbenson]

This thread is not the proper place to discuss feelings about Camilla or her title.

wbenson
British Forums Moderator

 

[Nice Nofret]

It seems to be clear know, that there will be a dukedom for them .. but still guessing which

Prince Charles jokes about getting old - Female First