Prince William and Catherine Middleton Possible Titles

[Mia_mae]

Nice idea!

 

[MRSJ]

We are less than six days and counting to the wedding of Prince William of Wales and Catherine Middleton.

For the last couple of months we have been discussing possible titles for the couple. Now its time to vote.

What title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?

The options are: Dukes of Clarence, Cambridge, Sussex, Windsor or Kendall. Or the Earl of Something, My choice isn't listed or Nothing!

Enjoy!

Warren, wbenson & Zonk
British Forums Moderator

Zonk, 2 of the colors are the same, is there a chance to change one just so it's easier to see looking at pie chart which title is winning!? if not no biggie-

 

[branchg]

Now, because of what happened with Diana, if they had children, I believe something different and better would be done for her to reflect the fact she's the mother of the future monarch. I do remember reading quite a bit of articles in the wake of Diana's death that more should have been done for her in deference of the fact that William would one day be king, and that his mother shouldn't have just been cast off in the way she was, as it was different than when Andrew and Sarah divorced or when Anne and Mark Philips divorced.

Diana was a unique situation as the mother of a future King and former wife of the heir. At her own choice, Diana chose to relinquish her royal rank as HRH in return for a definitive financial settlement that gave her complete financial security and independence from the royal family.

Had she chosen to remain Her Royal Highness (which The Queen did, in fact, offer to the Princess), she would have had to accept a far less generous lump-sum payment, with the rest paid out over her lifetime. She would also have had to accept a continuation of the arrangement during the separation whereby the Palace would determine what public duties, if any, she would undertake on behalf of the monarch. Diana rejected both conditions.

Despite these choices, The Queen made it clear in a statement from the Palace that Diana would remain a member of the royal family and be granted her former precedence on all state and national occasions. She was also permitted to remain a Princess, retained her royal residence for life and all of her jewels. So, Diana was hardly "cast-off" by the loss of HRH.

When she died, she was given a state funeral with full royal honours as a member of the royal family.

 

[Zonk]

Zonk, 2 of the colors are the same, is there a chance to change one just so it's easier to see looking at pie chart which title is winning!? if not no biggie-

I am not sure I can change the color but I will look into it.

 

[ladongas]

. As for Prince of Wales I would like to see the exact wording of the 1958 LPs but so far the only copy I have been able to view is too small to make out all the words and that could hold the key as to whether or not he would remain as Prince of Wales if he isn't the heir apparent to the throne.

.

Bertie, is this the one you mean? I zoomed as best I could, but my eyes are too tired to make it out right now.
Royal Collection - Letters patent
Thanks for explaining what makes an heir "presumptive." I asked my sister (when we were little) what 'heir presumptive' meant, and she told me it meant the heir had tuberculosis.

 

[HRHofNothing]

If William predeceases both his father and grandmother, but he and Catherine have no children, she would continue be styled as HRH Princess William of Wales, if William was not granted a peerage. She would lose the title if she remarried. If they had children, and William hadn't been granted a peerage, the Queen could give her a title as the mother of the future king or queen, but I don't know. I would assume she'd be granted a life peerage of some kind, to honor her rank as the mother of the future monarch, but I can't recall off the top of my head a situation where that has happened.

If they were to divorce, she'd take on the style of a divorced woman, but not that of a divorced peeress. I believe she'd go back to being Catherine Middleton. Now, because of what happened with Diana, if they had children, I believe something different and better would be done for her to reflect the fact she's the mother of the future monarch. I do remember reading quite a bit of articles in the wake of Diana's death that more should have been done for her in deference of the fact that William would one day be king, and that his mother shouldn't have just been cast off in the way she was, as it was different than when Andrew and Sarah divorced or when Anne and Mark Philips divorced.

Thanks for the answer.

I read somewhere that the Queen offered to resotre Diana's HRH before the funeral but Earl Spencer rejected the offer

I guess in my scenario if William dies before accession with only female offspring-this would also be the first case where there would be a female heir apparent, correct?

 

[MRSJ]

Thanks for the answer.

I read somewhere that the Queen offered to resotre Diana's HRH before the funeral but Earl Spencer rejected the offer

I guess in my scenario if William dies before accession with only female offspring-this would also be the first case where there would be a female heir apparent, correct?

Following that thought, if Prince Charles is King and William predeceases him but has a child would Prince Henry be heir as male son of current King? Or Williams child?

 

[Zonk]

I have tried to allow for a slight diversion but we are so off topic its amazing.

As previously suggested there are plenty of threads to talk about the titles of dowagers, the line of succession, the titles of Princes Wales, etc. Please have those discussions in the appropriate threads.

Let's get back on the topic for this thread.

 

[Iluvbertie]

No there isn't. When Friedrich Josias, Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha died in 1998, the Dukedom of Albany and all its subsidiary titles became extinct. He had sons, but they weren't granted permission to marry under the Royal Marriages Act of 1772, so under British law, their marriages are considered void. That means the children from those marriages are considered illegitimate and unable to succeed.

So the title is available for a re-grant if HM chooses to.

I have been doing some research today on this further and as descendents of Caroline Mathilde the youngest child of Frederick Prince of Wales they are exempt from seeking permission under the RMA so they title isn't extinct at all but in abeyance.

Geroge II - Frederick Prince of Wales - Caroline Mathilde - Louise Auguste of Denmark - Christian August II - Frederick VIII - Princess Karoline Mathilde - Princess Victoria Adelaide - Princess Viktoria Adelaide (wife of Prince Charles Edward, Duke of Albany and Duke of Saxe-Coburg Gotha. The current princes are descendents of Charles Edward of course (Queen Vicotria's grandson and the 'Nazi' prince).

All descendents of Caroline Mathilde are exempt as she was a British Princess who married into a foreign royal house.

 

[Duchess of Darwin]

I doubt Kate will be styled as Princess Katherine, on Friday, but I'm hoping she will be when William becomes King. This is because, in the interest of gender equality, I hope she becomes Princess Consort, rather than Queen. Nothing has been said about this possibility, yet, but she has expressed affection for Camilla, who will quite likely be styled as Princess Consort, herself. I hope Camilla becomes Princess Camilla, when Charles becomes King, for the same reason. The media wouldn't want to use "Princess Charles/George" or "Princess William", yet to use "The Princess Consort", all the time, would be clumbersome, and on another note, why should a woman be seen as an extension of her husband? Prince Philip has never been Prince Elizabeth!

 

[Iluvbertie]

Following that thought, if Prince Charles is King and William predeceases him but has a child would Prince Henry be heir as male son of current King? Or Williams child?

Once William has a legitimate child Harry, and everyone else, moves down the order so if William has a child and dies that child would still come before Harry in the order.

Current line - Charles, William, Harry

William has a child the line would be - Charles William, child, Harry

William dies so the line becomes - Charles, child, Harry.

 

[Americanskipper]

If William receives a dukedom, Kate will be HRH The Duchess of said dukedom. She will not be Princess William of Wales, The Duchess of said dukedom. That's because she will be taking her husband's title and his title will not be Prince William of Wales, Duke of. It will be The Duke of.

She will be Princess William only if William does not receive another title.

If William is given a Dukedom, he will still be Prince William of Wales. He will remain Prince William of Wales as long as his father remains Prince of Wales.

 

[Americanskipper]

Andrew and Edward get nothing from their titles as there is no set land or other income associated with these titles (same for Gloucester and Kent). These four are supported by the private income of the Queen.

Cornwall was set up to provide an independent income for the heir to the throne - independent of the monarch by the way.

The other royal duchy which provides an income is Lancaster - but that is the private income of the monarch.

Other Dukedoms that have incomes have come about because they also included estates at a time when land provided wealth. The landed aristocracy frequently were able to diversify into some form of industry to add to their wealth e.g. Duke of Westminster. The Duke of Marlborough was given Blenheim and its land as a thank you from the monarch and nation (for a peppercorn rent of one flag about the Battle of Blenheim to be handed personally to the monarch on the anniversary of that battle - hence the Duke of Marlborough is always at Balmoral for the start of the grouse hunting season as the battel was either the 11th or 13th August and the grouse hunting seasons starts on the 12th). A similar situation arose with the Duke of Wellington only his flag has to be presented on the anniversary of the Battle of Waterloo. The nation and monarch (actually the Prince Regent) gave the first duke the lands around his estate.

William is independently wealthy thanks to his mother's death as he inherited half her estate and would be very close to gaining full control of his share (I think that is next year). In the meantime he has the income from his share of the estate and he has whatever allowance his father has made for him from the income of the Duchy of Cornwall. He also has his military pay (and as I heard that Harry's would be getting a pay rise to about 70,000 pounds or dollars - I can't remember - with his most recent promotion) and William is on the equivalent rank I would assume that William will be on a similar income.

No title that the Queen gives him will come with any income.

Thank you very much. Very helpful.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I doubt Kate will be styled as Princess Katherine, on Friday, but I'm hoping she will be when William becomes King. This is because, in the interest of gender equality, I hope she becomes Princess Consort, rather than Queen. Nothing has been said about this possibility, yet, but she has expressed affection for Camilla, who will quite likely be styled as Princess Consort, herself. I hope Camilla becomes Princess Camilla, when Charles becomes King, for the same reason. The media wouldn't want to use "Princess Charles/George" or "Princess William", yet to use "The Princess Consort", all the time, would be clumbersome, and on another note, why should a woman be seen as an extension of her husband? Prince Philip has never been Prince Elizabeth!

Huh? When William is King, she will be Queen Catherine. The same as when Charles is King, Camilla will be Queen Camilla, regardless of what ridiculousness is floating around in regards to her title. The wife of the King is the Queen. That's how it works. That's how it's always worked. It would take an act of Parliament for Camilla's title to be downgraded when Charles ascends the throne, and I'd like to think that in the wake of his mother's death, he'd have more important things to worry about than what Camilla will be called. Frankly it would be disgusting and disturbing if it were to happen. The only people who want it to happen are people who cannot accept that they're married, but those people can just cry me a river, build me a bridge, and then get over it.

Prince Philip has never been Prince Elizabeth because in the BRF, husbands do not take their titles and styles from their wives. While Crown Princess Victoria's husband is Prince Daniel, Duke of Vastergotland, I do not believe when she is Queen Regnant, he'll be King Consort. Although it would be interesting if it were to happen.

 

[Madame Royale]

The only people who want it to happen are people who cannot accept that they're married but those people can just cry me a river, build me a bridge, and then get over it.

Incorrect. I remain very much in favour of the alternative and I have no issue with them being married nor do I have an issue with Camilla. Infact, from what I see of her at such a distance, I like her very much.

Everyone has their own opinion and they aren't necessarily resultant of the assumptions you appear to make.

 

[QUEENECE29]

my vote for Duke of Cambridge, I hope Princess of Wales

 

[Sister Morphine]

my vote for Duke of Cambridge, I hope Princess of Wales

If William is invested as The Prince of Wales when Charles is King, then Catherine will automatically become The Princess of Wales.

 

[texankitcat]

my vote for Duke of Cambridge, I hope Princess of Wales

She can't be titled as The Princess of Wales because she isn't marrying The Prince of Wales. Charles is The Prince of Wales and his wife Camilla is the current Princess of Wales. Once Charles ascends the throne, then he would have to invest William as The Prince of Wales, although that isn't guaranteed. It's not a hereditary title. If William is invested as The Prince of Wales, then of course Catherine will then be The Princess of Wales.

 

[katmen]

and what about to create Catherine duchess, countess.. etc. in her own right?

 

[Sister Morphine]

and what about to create Catherine duchess, countess.. etc. in her own right?

It's beyond doubtful that the Queen is going to make Catherine a peeress in her own right. I would say that it's absolutely certain not to happen. If Catherine becomes a peeress, it will be because she's married to a peer; meaning, William will be given a dukedom or earldom on his wedding day.

 

[Iluvbertie]

and what about to create Catherine duchess, countess.. etc. in her own right?

The only way that would happen would be if William isn't given a title later this year, they have a child and then William dies. That would leave Kate as the mother of the future monarch with no title to use other than HRH Princess William or even HRH Princess Catherine. In that circumstance I could see her getting a title in her own right but otherwise no.

As a woman who has done nothing except fall in love with the second in line to the throne she hasn't earnt the right to any titles or awards yet.

What she will do, on marriage, like all women, is take the styles and titles of her husband.

 

[branchg]

Incorrect. I remain very much in favour of the alternative and I have no issue with them being married nor do I have an issue with Camilla. Infact, from what I see of her at such a distance, I like her very much.

Everyone has their own opinion and they aren't necessarily resultant of the assumptions you appear to make.

And you are not alone. Polls continue to show a majority of Britons are opposed to Camilla becoming Queen.

If such sentiment continues (and we don't know if it will by the time Charles becomes King), Parliament will pass legislation providing Camilla will not be HM The Queen. At that point, Charles can then issue Letters Patent creating her a Princess of the UK in her own right with the style and title of "HRH The Princess Consort".

This is the only way it can happen. Parliament must agree to it and the Crown Commonwealth nations must grant consent. But I doubt this wrinkle in the title and succession would continue to Catherine or any other future Consort.

 

[Sister Morphine]

It makes zero sense to oppose her being Queen. Zero. If Charles bows to this nonsense, to me that makes him a spineless coward.

 

[texankitcat]

It makes zero sense to oppose her being Queen. Zero. If Charles bows to this nonsense, to me that makes him a spineless coward.

You are right. It IS nonsense. I don't see this being the scenario however since by the time Prince Charles ascends the throne Camilla will have been his wife longer than Diana. She most certainly will have earned the right to this title and I don't see Charles being spineless in ensuring that she is given the full status and rights of her position.

 

[Zonk]

All posts regarding the Camilla's Title after Charles becomes King, should be made here http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/the-monarchy-under-charles-16252-29.html

Additional off topic posts will be deleted without notice.

 

[EmpressRouge]

and what about to create Catherine duchess, countess.. etc. in her own right?

Would that make Catherine a life peeress and therefore, give her a seat in the House of Lords? I don't know exactly what the situation is after the Labour government reformed seats in the House of Lords from being a hereditary in 1999, but I remember that one reason Diana wasn't given a peerage after the divorce (since the HH style didn't exist anymore in Britain, she couldn't be "downgraded") because the result would be she would get a seat in the House of Lords.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Would that make Catherine a life peeress and therefore, give her a seat in the House of Lords? I don't know exactly what the situation is after the Labour government reformed seats in the House of Lords from being a hereditary in 1999, but I remember that one reason Diana wasn't given a peerage after the divorce (since the HH style didn't exist anymore in Britain, she couldn't be "downgraded") because the result would be she would get a seat in the House of Lords.

As all first creation peers were able to keep their seats this situation still applied to Philip, Andrew, Edward, and according to Charles as well. They refused to take seats in the House of Lords after its reformation even though qualified. I am sure Diana would have taken the same course - but with her of course you never know - she may very well have decided to get involved in politics but...she could have done that anyway in the House of Commons as an elected MP.

 

[wbenson]

First creation peers were offered life peerages to complement their hereditary peerages (the Earl of Snowdon among others accepted, and he's now also Baron Armstrong-Jones), but their hereditary peerages alone weren't enough to stay in the house without being elected to one of the slots. Philip, Charles, Andrew, and Edward all refused the life peerage that the Blair government offered. If Kate got a hereditary peerage, she wouldn't automatically be able to sit in Parliament unless it came with a separate life peerage as well (or if she was elected by other peers to one of the seats for hereditary peers).

ETA: Apparently the Duke of Gloucester and the Duke of Kent were also offered life peerages, even though they inherited their dukedoms.

 

[Osipi]

She will need to be formally stripped of the title of Queen before the LPs can be issued. Parliament will need to be involved and possibly the Parliaments of the other realms.

The more this discussion goes on (and it does nicely in other threads) the more I realize what I don't know.

In that regard, I can't say I'd blame William for asking his grandmother to NOT title him. As we look through the list of who's invited and who'd not we look at the titles. Where they are seated is been in question even (with the Spencers seated behind the Middletons).

I really think that right now William loves his work and what he's doing with SAR and the both of them enjoy the everyday kind of life that comes with his profession. They've nixed on having servants, he goes to Australia and says "Just call me William" and they've kept a very low profile romantically for years. He knows its his father's moment when that time comes and IMO will be the first to pledge fealty to his King. When Charles DOES become King, both of his sons will be close by and supportive.

After reading some of the stuff in the British Royal History thread, it seems to me that this just might be the first time in a LONG time that there would actually be a King that has two sons very close to him.

 

[Americanskipper]

I wonder if another possibility would be for William to take (by courtesy) one of Charles' lesser titles? There would still be the problem of what Harry is called when he gets married. But might it be that William and Kate are called 'Earl and Countess of Chester', or 'Earl and Countess of Carrick'? If it wasn't for Camalia using the title 'Duchess of Cornwall', William and Kate could have even taken that style, courtesy of Charles, without actually being named Duke. I doubt it will happen, but I guess technically it is a possibility.