Prince William and Catherine Middleton Possible Titles

[Sister Morphine]

Edward won't receive the Edinburgh Dukedom when Philip dies unless Charles is already King and recreates the title for Edward.

You missed my point. It's been publicly stated that Edward is likely to receive the dukedom of Edinburgh when Philip dies, and obviously for that to happen, Charles would have to create a new dukedom of Edinburgh for Edward and his descendants. We already know that's how it works.

To give one of Philip's subsidiary titles to William is an affront to that, and goes against what is expected to happen for Edward, and thus is highly unlikely to occur. Because if this happens, the dukedom of Edinburgh will pass through William and his descendants, and it's unlikely that when William becomes King, Edward will still be alive, and if he is, he'll be very old. So it would make no sense in that scenario for William to create a new dukedom of Edinburgh for Edward.

 

[wbenson]

To give one of Philip's subsidiary titles to William is an affront to that, and goes against what is expected to happen for Edward, and thus is highly unlikely to occur. Because if this happens, the dukedom of Edinburgh will pass through William and his descendants, and it's unlikely that when William becomes King, Edward will still be alive, and if he is, he'll be very old. So it would make no sense in that scenario for William to create a new dukedom of Edinburgh for Edward.

A second creation of one of Philip's subsidiary titles wouldn't affect the Dukedom of Edinburgh. It would still merge with the crown (barring unlikely circumstances), and there would be no impediment to creating a new Dukedom of Edinburgh for Edward once that happened.

I don't think it's likely, but it wouldn't necessitate changing any future plans.

 

[abcdxyz]

Edward won't receive the Edinburgh Dukedom when Philip dies unless Charles is already King and recreates the title for Edward.

I have a question about this (please excuse my ignorance). If Philip dies and the Queen wished to confer the title Duke of Edinburgh on Edward at that time, can she not do that? Why does Charles have to become king to recreate the title?

 

[Sister Morphine]

I have a question about this (please excuse my ignorance). If Philip dies and the Queen wished to confer the title Duke of Edinburgh on Edward at that time, can she not do that? Why does Charles have to become king to recreate the title?

If Philip died, the title would be inherited by Charles. So then he would be the Duke of Edinburgh on top of all of his other titles. Once Charles became King and the title merged with the crown, HE could then create a 2nd Dukedom of Edinburgh for Edward.

Basically, you can't have two men holding the same title. If Philip dies before the Queen, Charles inherits his titles as his first-born child. The Queen couldn't create a 2nd Dukedom of Edinburgh for Edward while the current Duke of Edinburgh (Charles) is still alive. Edward would have wait for Charles to become king so the title could merge with the crown and become available for a re-grant.

 

[abcdxyz]

If Philip died, the title would be inherited by Charles. So then he would be the Duke of Edinburgh on top of all of his other titles. Once Charles became King and the title merged with the crown, HE could then create a 2nd Dukedom of Edinburgh for Edward.

Basically, you can't have two men holding the same title. If Philip dies before the Queen, Charles inherits his titles as his first-born child. The Queen couldn't create a 2nd Dukedom of Edinburgh for Edward while the current Duke of Edinburgh (Charles) is still alive. Edward would have wait for Charles to become king so the title could merge with the crown and become available for a re-grant.

Thank you, Sister Morphine, I understand perfectly now!

 

[Sister Morphine]

You're welcome.

 

[branchg]

I think her point was publically it's been said Edward will one day be DoE and to 'give' it to William would be distespectful to Edward and probably the Queen's wishes so she probably won't do so....

Edward will only become The Duke of Edinburgh once the current dukedom is extinct. That's why the announcement stated it was intended he would be created Duke of Edinburgh after the death of his parents, not Philip.

If Philip dies before Charles is King, then his titles will pass to his eldest son, which means Charles will add Philip's peerages to his existing titles. If Charles does not survive his father, then William becomes Duke of Edinburgh. In both scenarios, either Charles or William becomes The Sovereign in due course and all of their titles will then merge with the Crown.

When it is created for Edward again by Charles or William as King, it will be a new creation. Most likely, Edward would be the 1st Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn.

 

[Mia_mae]

So going back to the subject...

Here, yesterday a local TV channel aired a special about the W&K. they showed the street where Kate's great-great-grandfather (I don't actually remember how many "greats" there was) used to live.
The name on the plate: "Clarence Street". What are the odds ?!
Kate's probably not even aware of that but it does put Duke and Duchess of Clarence on the front runner for me. If only the Prince Albert' connection had a happier ending.

 

[CrownPrincess5]

It's not a gift per se, nor is she required to do it. It is however, customary for a prince to receive a dukedom (or earldom) on his wedding day. The only one I can think off the top of my head who didn't was Charles, as he already was in possession of several titles when he married Diana in 1981. I mean, even Prince Philip received a dukedom on his wedding day.

Thanks for the info SM
I understand it now.

 

[Osipi]

I still am really hoping for the Dukedom of Cambridge. It just has an austere ring to it.

 

[Zonk]

Please note that off topic posts rehashing the Diana/Charles/Camilla triangle have been deleted.

 

[Cailin Deas]

I predict no Dukedom and she will become "Princess Catherine"... (which is why IMO, they have been insisting on calling her Catherine instead of Kate for the last few months. )

 

[Sister Morphine]

I predict no Dukedom and she will become "Princess Catherine"... (which is why IMO, they have been insisting on calling her Catherine instead of Kate for the last few months. )

Catherine is her name, Kate is a nickname. Besides, she's not going to be known in the court circulars as Kate, she'll be known as Catherine....so it's not a big deal that the press is coming around to that as well. The Queen is not going to make her a princess in her own right, when she didn't do the same for any of her daughters-in-law or her cousins' wives. There is no precedent for doing it, and I can't imagine the Queen just up and deciding to do so.

 

[wbenson]

There isn't a precedent for formally making her a princess in her own right, but there is a precedent for allowing her to be styled "Princess Catherine." The late Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester was never a princess in her own right, but the Queen still allowed her to be styled as Princess Alice.

There also wasn't a precedent for a royal earldom before 1999...

 

[Sister Morphine]

There isn't a precedent for formally making her a princess in her own right, but there is a precedent for allowing her to be styled "Princess Catherine." The late Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester was never a princess in her own right, but the Queen still allowed her to be styled as Princess Alice.

Yes, because she didn't want to be confused with her daughter-in-law. That's a bit different than this situation, as there are no other Catherines in the family that would warrant William's wife being given a title in exception to keep them apart.

 

[Zonk]

Well techinically, there is another Katharine, who is the Duchess of Kent.

But since she isn't around much AT ALL and for all intents and purposes is leading a separate life from her husband and BRF...I somewhat see your point.

That being said, I believe that William will receive a Dukedom on the 29th! 20 days to go.

 

[Cailin Deas]

Catherine is her name, Kate is a nickname. Besides, she's not going to be known in the court circulars as Kate, she'll be known as Catherine....so it's not a big deal that the press is coming around to that as well. The Queen is not going to make her a princess in her own right, when she didn't do the same for any of her daughters-in-law or her cousins' wives. There is no precedent for doing it, and I can't imagine the Queen just up and deciding to do so.

How do you know what the Queen is going to do ?? There was no precedent for lots of things yet they still happened.

And she would not be referred to in the Court Circular as Catherine anything - she would either be Princess or Duchess of X.....

 

[Tiggersk8]

That being said, I believe that William will receive a Dukedom on the 29th! 20 days to go.

I haven't said this anywhere else, because I know all of you will understand, but the other day I saw the first commercial for Royal Wedding coverage on Cdn TV. All I could do for the better part of four or five minutes was grin and giggle like an idiot.

Not too much longer...

 

[Sister Morphine]

Well techinically, there is another Katharine, who is the Duchess of Kent.

But since she isn't around much AT ALL and for all intents and purposes is leading a separate life from her husband and BRF...I somewhat see your point.

That being said, I believe that William will receive a Dukedom on the 29th! 20 days to go.

I didn't mean other Catherines, I had meant to say other Princess William of Wales. If there were two or three of them in the BRF for some reason, I could see wanting this one as the future queen to be set apart, but since there aren't.....there's no reason for it to happen.

 

[Grandduchess24]

Prince William duke of Clarence
Prince William duke of Albany
Princess Catherine "
Sound nice?

 

[branchg]

The Queen may very well permit Catherine to use the style of "Princess Catherine" upon marriage. It is entirely up to her as the fount of honour and there is precedent for allowing it.

I doubt it will happen, simply because The Queen would feel it is inappropriate given that her two daughter-in-laws, who take precedence ahead of Catherine as wives of sons of The Sovereign, are not styled this way.

I think she will be known as "HRH The Duchess of X".

 

[Americanskipper]

If William is not given an earldom or a dukedom, he will continue being HRH Prince William of Wales. If he and Catherine have a son while the Queen still reigns, and that son's name is George, he would HRH Prince George of Wales. All other children they have while the Queen still reigns would be Lord/Lady X Windsor.

When Charles becomes King, and William becomes Duke of Cornwall, any children he has will be HRH Prince/Princess X of Cornwall. Just like the children of George V were HRH Prince/Princess X of Cornwall and York when Edward VII became King. If William is then invested as the Prince of Wales, his children will then be HRH Prince/Princess X of Wales, as their father's main title will be The Prince of Wales, rather than The Duke of Cornwall. Children take their titles from their fathers (and in very rare exceptions, their mothers). So whatever territorial designations William has, his children will have.

In order to prevent Williams oldest son from being Prince X of Wales based upon his grandfather's territory, and then cease to be such, and then to be made Prince X of Wales AGAIN, I think William will get some title upon his wedding. It may be a earl. If it is, then Harry would also likely be made an earl upon his wedding. Then when Charles comes to the throne, Harry is likely to be created a Duke, maybe around the same time William becomes THE Prince of Wales.

 

[monkeyfish]

In order to prevent Williams oldest son from being Prince X of Wales based upon his grandfather's territory, and then cease to be such, and then to be made Prince X of Wales AGAIN, I think William will get some title upon his wedding. It may be a earl. If it is, then Harry would also likely be made an earl upon his wedding. Then when Charles comes to the throne, Harry is likely to be created a Duke, maybe around the same time William becomes THE Prince of Wales.

I have to say, this logic works for me and is that I keep coming back to time and again. I can understand William not wanting to change how he is known (his identity, so to speak) but since that's probably inevitable, it would seem to make sense that he'd go with something he can live with for a considerable amount of time before having to change again, i.e. upon his Grandmother's death, his father's ascension to the throne and his probably investiture at Prince of Wales. Of course, that could all happen at any time, but I hope it won't be for many, many years. Long live the Queen!

 

[Sister Morphine]

In order to prevent Williams oldest son from being Prince X of Wales based upon his grandfather's territory, and then cease to be such, and then to be made Prince X of Wales AGAIN, I think William will get some title upon his wedding. It may be a earl. If it is, then Harry would also likely be made an earl upon his wedding. Then when Charles comes to the throne, Harry is likely to be created a Duke, maybe around the same time William becomes THE Prince of Wales.

Harry probably won't get a dukedom until Prince Andrew dies, as it is customary for the 2nd son of the sovereign to be given the title Duke of York. As Andrew has no male heirs, when he dies it'll merge into the crown and be available for a re-grant. Of course, if Harry is given a dukedom before then, and Charles as King still decides to give him the dukedom of York, he'll be known as HRH Prince Henry, The Duke of X and York, and any of his children he has at that time will be HRH Prince/Princess X of Y and York.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Harry probably won't get a dukedom until Prince Andrew dies, as it is customary for the 2nd son of the sovereign to be given the title Duke of York. As Andrew has no male heirs, when he dies it'll merge into the crown and be available for a re-grant. Of course, if Harry is given a dukedom before then, and Charles as King still decides to give him the dukedom of York, he'll be known as HRH Prince Henry, The Duke of X and York, and any of his children he has at that time will be HRH Prince/Princess X of Y and York.

Harry will get a Dukedom probably a long time before Andrew dies. Not all second sons get York e.g. Queen Victoria's second son was made Edinburgh - and York was available at the time.

Andrew is only 51 and could easily live another 40 years so that would mean Harry waiting that long or even more.

Andrew could remarry at any time and have a son - so what happens if Andrew remarries aged 70 a 25 year old (unlikely but possible) and they have a son and heir to York but meanwhile Harry has been left in limbo waiting for a title that won't be available.

Harry will get his own Dukedom when he marries and York will be availably in about 30 to 40 years time for William to use for his second son or even wait for William's heir's second son.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Prince William duke of Clarence
Prince William duke of Albany
Princess Catherine "
Sound nice?

Albany isn't available as there is a current claimant.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Albany isn't available as there is a current claimant.

No there isn't. When Friedrich Josias, Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha died in 1998, the Dukedom of Albany and all its subsidiary titles became extinct. He had sons, but they weren't granted permission to marry under the Royal Marriages Act of 1772, so under British law, their marriages are considered void. That means the children from those marriages are considered illegitimate and unable to succeed.

So the title is available for a re-grant if HM chooses to.

 

[Thena]

Harry probably won't get a dukedom until Prince Andrew dies, as it is customary for the 2nd son of the sovereign to be given the title Duke of York. As Andrew has no male heirs, when he dies it'll merge into the crown and be available for a re-grant. Of course, if Harry is given a dukedom before then, and Charles as King still decides to give him the dukedom of York, he'll be known as HRH Prince Henry, The Duke of X and York, and any of his children he has at that time will be HRH Prince/Princess X of Y and York.

There is a precedent from Victoria's reign where the Duke of York title went unused for a generation. One of Victoria's Hanoverian uncles had been Duke of York but died without any legitimate children. She gave her second son the title of Duke of Edinburgh her later sons were Duke of Connaught and Duke of Albany. It wasn't until the next generation where she granted the York title to the future George V.

Right now, the York title has some not-so-positive associations due to some of Andrew's activities. I think that if Harry gets a title, they'll want to give him something fresh without that connotation.

 

[Susanna Wynne]

Iluvbertie, I think you are entirely correct... If the current Duke of York had fathered a son, the title would have been passed down to his direct line male heirs. Therefore, if the queen wants to give a dukedom to William and/or Harry, this one will not be available at least while Andrew is alive or his son, if any. That would not prevent Harry from receiving another dukedom if the queen so decides.

 

[Osipi]

Iluvbertie, I think you are entirely correct... If the current Duke of York had fathered a son, the title would have been passed down to his direct line male heirs. Therefore, if the queen wants to give a dukedom to William and/or Harry, this one will not be available at least while Andrew is alive or his son, if any. That would not prevent Harry from receiving another dukedom if the queen so decides.

I agree here too. It still is very much in the realm of possibility that Andrew could still have a male heir to pass the dukedom to. My grandfather was born in 1867 and fathered my dad at a "randy" old age of 67 (my grandmother was 40 when she delivered). Its also quite possible that should equal primogeniture be passed to include peerages other than specifically stated titles (such as Cornwall), Beatrice just may be passing the York torch.

What would be amazing in time is if Charles as King creates Harry the Duke of Clarence along with passing Clarence House to him. I can see him passing on Highgrove to William.

Makes for some interesting thinking of all the "what ifs"