Prince William and Catherine Middleton Possible Titles

[Zonk]

Yes it is...will be it Clarence, Cambridge or Sussex. They haven't had titled holders in over 100 years..and I will add another wrinkle.....Connaught.

The Duke of Connaught (Queen Victoria's son) lived until 1941, and I believe he was one of the Queen's godparents (or someone's..I can't find the info right now). His daughter, Margaret maried Prince Gustaf Adolf of Sweden and the great grandmother of the current Swedish King and Danish Queen.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

I think the Queen will bestow a title on William and his wife. It was Harry, I would question it (at least during her lifetime I think Charles would do so). But William it supposed to be King (if things remain the same). So she will give him a Dukedom.

I just seems odd to me that the grandson would be a duke, while the grandson's father is a duke also. Sometimes my logic....

Then again, the grandfather is a duke too...oh well, let them duke it out!

 

[Zonk]

I just said that. I didn't say Charles would make Harry the Duke of York. I said the possibility is that Andrew will outlive Charles, meaning that when William is King, there will already be a Duke of York, so Harry won't have received that title. When Andrew does die, William will more than likely have sons of his own and he will create a new Duke of York for his second-oldest, rather than Harry.

My apologies Sister Morphine. After I typed it and hit enter...I looked at your message and was like What? But then a call came in at work

 

[Sister Morphine]

Yes it is...will be it Clarence, Cambridge or Sussex. They haven't had titled holders in over 100 years..and I will add another wrinkle.....Connaught.

The Duke of Connaught (Queen Victoria's son) lived until 1941, and I believe he was one of the Queen's godparents (or someone's..I can't find the info right now). His daughter, Margaret maried Prince Gustaf Adolf of Sweden and the great grandmother of the current King.

Isn't Connaught an Irish title?

 

[Sister Morphine]

My apologies Sister Morphine. After I typed it and hit enter...I looked at your message and was like What? But then a call came in at work

It's cool -- lots of people all posting at the same time and something like that is bound to happen.

 

[Zonk]

Isn't Connaught an Irish title?

Yes, it is. From Wikipedia:

The Dukedom of Connaught and Strathearn was named after one of the four provinces of Ireland, now known by its modern Irish language-based spelling of Connacht. It was seen as the title that if available would henceforth be awarded to a monarch's third son; the first son was traditionally Duke of Cornwall (in England) and Duke of Rothesay (in Scotland), and would be made Prince of Wales at some point, while the second son would often become Duke of York, if the title were available.
Since the exit of the Republic of Ireland from the United Kingdom in 1922, titles related to locations in Ireland have not been awarded (though Prince Edward, Prince of Wales – in 1936 briefly King Edward VIII – was made a Knight of the Order of St Patrick). However, territorial titles relating to Northern Ireland have continued to be awarded.
In view of the warming of relations between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland in the 1990s Queen Elizabeth II could award her third son, Prince Edward, the Dukedom of Connaught. This has so far not happened. The feelings of the Irish might be perturbed at the unwarranted imposition upon the populace of an English 'Duke' even if only of the most ephemerally titular sort. It was decided, however, that Prince Edward shall be created Duke of Edinburgh.

----------

So yes, looking at the History....it looks like Connaught is kind of out. But I love Margaret of Connaught and the old Duke (who himself was a godson of the Duke of Wellington). To me it would have been a nice connection to the past...the dukedom of the son of Queen Victoria, godson of the Duke of Wellington, who himself was the godfather of the Present Queen. I still need to find that confirmation.

Trying to do this while at work is not great

 

[Sister Morphine]

Probably a dumb question and a bit off-topic, but when Edward is created the Duke of Edinburgh, his children will become HRH automatically, right? They already are legally HRH but aren't styled as such, but in this instance they would be, correct?

 

[Lady Ann]

Probably a dumb question and a bit off-topic, but when Edward is created the Duke of Edinburgh, his children will become HRH automatically, right? They already are legally HRH but aren't styled as such, but in this instance they would be, correct?

They already are as you said HRH, I don't think Edward will lift the lesser titles of his children. He did this for a reason and that reason will not change if he becomes a duke. It was my understanding that when his children become 18 they have the choice of using their HRH or not too.

 

[AnnEliza]

Thank you to all of you providing information, I am learning so much! This discussion is fascinating!

 

[Iluvbertie]

Great-grandchildren in the male line carry the HH title, rather than HRH. So William and Catherine's eldest son will be HRH if the Queen is still alive, and any subsequent children they have before her death will be HH Prince/Princess of Wales. That's according to letters patent that dictate who gets the HRH and who doesn't. Right now it's the children of the monarch, grandchildren of the monarch in the male line and the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.

I have just been reading the 1917 LPs which changed the HRH rules again to check that I was right in my understanding and I see no reason to change my opinion.

William's eldest son will be born HRH but the other children will be born Lord/Lady unless specific new LPs are issued.

Under the 1917 LPs the children of the monarch, male line grandchildren of the monarch and the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales are HRH with no mention of anyone having HH.

Those same 1917 LPs specifically deny the future use of HH or SH in Britain. Here is the wording of the LPs from 1917.

George the Fifth by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, King, Defender of the Faith To all to whom these presents shall come Greeting: Whereas Her late Majesty Queen Victoria did by Her Letters Patent dated the thirtieth day of January in the twenty seventh year of Her Reign declare her Royal Pleasure as to the style and title of the Princes and Princesses of the Royal Family in the manner in the said Letters Patent particularly mentioned And whereas we deem it expedient that the said Letters Patent should be extended and amended and that the styles and titles to be borne by the Princes and Princesses of the Royal Family should be henceforth established defined and limited in manner hereinafter declared Now Know Ye that We of our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion do hereby declare our Royal Will and Pleasure that the children of any Sovereign of these Realms and the children of the sons of any such Sovereign and the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales shall have and at all times hold and enjoy the style title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their respective Christian names or with their other titles of honour And We do further declare our Royal Will and Pleasure that save as aforesaid the style title or attribute of Royal Highness Highness or Serene Highness and the titular dignity of Prince or Princess shall not henceforth be assumed or borne by any descendent of any Sovereign of these Realms excepting always any such descendant who at the date of these Letters Patent holds or bears any right to any such style degree attribute or titular dignity in pursuance of any Letters Patent granted by Ourselves or any of Our Royal Predecessors and still remaining unrevoked it being Our Royal Will and Pleasure that the grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line (save only the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales) shall have and enjoy in all occasions the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes of these Our Realms Our Will and Pleasure further is that Our Earl Marshal of England or his deputy for the time being do cause these our Letters Patent or the enrolment thereof to be recorded in Our College of Arms to the end that Our officers of Arms and all others may take due notice thereof. In Witness whereof We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent Witness Ourself at Westminster the thirtieth day of November in the eighth year of Our reign.
By Warrant under the King's Sign Manual.
Schuster.

(Original letters patent, National Archives, HO 125/15. See also College of Arms, ms. I78/25.)
Whitehall, 11th December, 1917.
The KING has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, bearing date the 30th ultimo, to define the styles and titles to be borne henceforth by members of the Royal Family. It is declared by the Letters Patent that the children of any Sovereign of the United Kingdom and the children of the sons of any such Sovereign and the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales shall have and at all times hold and enjoy the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their respective Christian names or with their other titles of honour; that save as aforesaid the titles of Royal Highness, Highness or Serene Highness, and the titular dignity of Prince and Princess shall cease except those titles already granted and remaining unrevoked; and that the grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line (save only the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales) shall have the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes.

(London Gazette, issue 30428, Dec. 14, 1917, p. 2.)

 

[Iluvbertie]

Probably a dumb question and a bit off-topic, but when Edward is created the Duke of Edinburgh, his children will become HRH automatically, right? They already are legally HRH but aren't styled as such, but in this instance they would be, correct?

First of all - there is no such thing as a 'dumb question'. If we don't ask questions we never learn.

So to answer your question - the decision to not use the HRH made by their parents applies regardless of title held.

I doubt that they will ever use it as by the time Edward gets Edinburgh they will be so used to Lord and Lady and so far from the throne (already 8th and 9th) and with William's engagement probably drop out of the top 10 within 5 years they will no be doing royal duties etc but have a life more like that of Peter and Zara Philips so having no HRH will be of use to them.

The only change that would happen would be that James would become the Earl of Wessex as that title would them be Edward's subsidiary title.

 

[irishthanhy]

Speaking of subsidiary titles...any thoughts on William getting one of Charles' subsidiary Earl titles instead of a Dukedom? I don't think that will be the case but I think it would be neat.

 

[4Pam]

Article from Yahoo!: What to Call Kate?

What to Call Kate? - Yahoo! News

 

[Lumutqueen]

Well that would be HRH Princess William of Wales if William is not granted a dukedom or The Duchess of Wherever, should he be given one.

The official title will likely be Her Royal Highness Catherine of Wales

No it won't.

 

[irishthanhy]

Too bad that article is wrong....

 

[Iluvbertie]

Speaking of subsidiary titles...any thoughts on William getting one of Charles' subsidiary Earl titles instead of a Dukedom? I don't think that will be the case but I think it would be neat.

It won't happen.

No son of a Prince of Wales has ever used one of the Earldom's as a courtesy title. If William was going to use that he would have been doing so since birth.

Just as he has never used Baron Greenwich (Philip's third title) he has never used one of Charles' so he won't start now.

He will either get a title in his own right or simply remain Prince William of Wales and his wife will be Princess William of Wales.

 

[AnnEliza]

Too bad that article is wrong....

I'm not surprised when the American press gets it wrong, but I have been watching the BBC, and I was surprised that the British press can't seem to get it straight either!

 

[Iluvbertie]

I'm not surprised when the American press gets it wrong, but I have been watching the BBC, and I was surprised that the British press can't seem to get it straight either!

There was a time when the media prided themselves on getting things right but over the last generation of so that pride has disappeared, especially with regard to the reporting on the royals.

 

[AnnEliza]

There was a time when the media prided themselves on getting things right but over the last generation of so that pride has disappeared, especially with regard to the reporting on the royals.

Yes, sadly that's true in the States, too.

 

[irishthanhy]

Well, the situation with Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex had never happened before, so it was just a thought.
Personally I think the rules of royalty have been changing over the past few decades, so it's never easy to tell what will happen.

 

[Zonk]

Well, the situation with Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex had never happened before, so it was just a thought.

Personally I think the rules of royalty have been changing over the past few decades, so it's never easy to tell what will happen.

You are being extremely kind. As previously mentioned, royalty doesn't have the same importance so why bother with the details. But more important, in this instant information age.....people do their "research" on the internet" and we all know if you click on the right page (or what you think is the right page) you can get misinformation and you wouldn't actually know it. Think of all those youtube videos that exists out there that many consider to be truth. If you want to prove the sky is purple, I am sure you can find something on the internet to support your theory.

 

[Sunnystar]

So, there's been some reports out today that Kate will be eased, very gently into the royal role/responsibilities and it just got me to thinking... If they're going to let her hole up in Wales with William and not do too much until he's completed his SAR tour, then perhaps he won't receive a title immediately. If she's not doing much in the way of taking on any patronages and not making many appearances then is it really necessary for him to become HRH The Duke of Whatever and her HRH The Duchess of Whatever?

 

[Iluvbertie]

The alternative is for her officially to be Princess William and that won't be happening I don't think so a title would mean that things like the Court Circular and the official monarchy website would be able to refer the HRH The Duchess of xxx rather than HRH Princess William of Wales.

 

[dazzling]

What to Call Kate?

...Once married, Kate Middleton will unofficially become "Princess Catherine." The official title will likely be Her Royal Highness Catherine of Wales. Eventually, after many years and barring any unforeseen tragedy or divorce, she and William will become the Queen and King of England...
Article

 

[Kataryn]

I would like it if they decided on a Scottish dukedom for William and Catherine (will try to get used to that name, now!). They met in Scotland, they love the country, William is a "Prince of Scotland" and will one day be The Duke of Rothesay (that is: Crown Prince of Scotland). So the queen could create a dukedom of the UK with a Scottish place name, like duke of Balmoral or duke of Lochnagar or duke of Braemar. Or whatever suitable place is on the Balmoral estate. Or she could choose an ancient Scottish Royal dukedom, if there are any besides Rothesay.

I just found that king William IV. of the UK, son of George III. and uncle of queen Victoria had been "Duke of Clarence and St. Andrews" before he inherited the crwon. Wouldn't Duke and Duchess of St. Andrews not be suitable titles for William and his Catherine?

 

[purple_Lulu]

The Duke of Albany was traditionally the Scottish equivalent of the English Duke of York title (second son of the sovereign.) It's probably regarded as a tricky one. Queen Victoria created her youngest son Leopold Duke of Albany, however his son was divested of the title in 1917 (having by that time also taken on the Dukedom of Saxe-Coburg and become sufficiently not British in wartime.) So the title is technically available, but the male progeny of the last holder continue to lay claim to the title.

 

[RubyPrincess168]

Well that would be HRH Princess William of Wales if William is not granted a dukedom or The Duchess of Wherever, should he be given one.

I wouldn't be surprised if the press drops the 'William' and refers to her as 'Princess of Wales', much like Diana was called. Camilla's not using the title although she's entitled to it.

 

[Jacknch]

It would be nice if there was a Welsh dukedom available or an area in Wales that is not being used as a dukedom or earldom.

With regard to RubyPrincess168's comment, in one kind of way, Kate will be a princess "OF" Wales (if no other title is given to William), just not THE princess of Wales....just as William and Harry are both "OF" Wales.

 

[Zonk]

The Duke of Albany was traditionally the Scottish equivalent of the English Duke of York title (second son of the sovereign.) It's probably regarded as a tricky one. Queen Victoria created her youngest son Leopold Duke of Albany, however his son was divested of the title in 1917 (having by that time also taken on the Dukedom of Saxe-Coburg and become sufficiently not British in wartime.) So the title is technically available, but the male progeny of the last holder continue to lay claim to the title.

Carl Edward, Duke of Saxe Coburg lost his the title for himself and heirs in the Tites Deprivation Act.

According to Wikipedia:

Yhe Titles Deprivation Act is an Act of Parliament of the United Kingdom according to which enemies of the United Kingdom during the First World War could be deprived of their peerage and royal titles. Its long title was An Act to deprive Enemy Peers and Princes of British Dignities and Titles. It received royal assent on 8 November 1917.


The committee issued their report in August 1918 and it was thereafter laid before the Houses of Parliament. Since no resolution was passed by either House disapproving of the report, it was presented to the King on 28 March 1919, and, on the same date, as a result of the findings of the report, the King issued an Order-in-Council depriving the following persons of their titles:

• HRH The Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (Duke of Albany, Earl of Clarence, Baron Arklow and a Prince of the United Kingdom)
• HRH The Crown Prince of Hanover (Duke of Cumberland and Teviotdale, Earl of Armagh and a Prince of the United Kingdom)
• HRH The Duke of Brunswick (Earl of Armagh and a Prince of the United Kingdom)
• The Viscount Taaffe (Viscount Taaffe and Baron Ballymote)

To date, no descendant of the persons who were deprived of their titles has petitioned the Crown for the restoration of the said titles.

--------------
Basically I would think that the title is available but I don't belieev the Queen will use it.

 

[lover_of_royalty]

hello! why would William take a dukedom when it is a stepdown when for 26 years he's been a prince! Kate deserves to be Princess Catherine of Wales - once the queen dies they would be retitled as Prince/Princess of Wales its pointless!