Prince William and Catherine Middleton Possible Titles


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

What Title will the Queen bestow on William and Catherine?

  • Duke of Clarence

    Votes: 25 16.3%
  • Duke of Cambridge

    Votes: 68 44.4%
  • Duke of Sussex

    Votes: 5 3.3%
  • Duke of Windsor

    Votes: 8 5.2%
  • Duke of Kendall

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • Earl of Something

    Votes: 8 5.2%
  • Hey! My choice isn't listed. I think it will be something else.

    Votes: 11 7.2%
  • Nothing. I think they will remain Prince and Princess William of Wales

    Votes: 26 17.0%

  • Total voters
    153
  • Poll closed .
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No, Camilla is not "The Princess Charles" and Diana was never "The Princess Charles." Similarly, Sophie is not "The Princess Edward." A British royal wife takes her husband's title, not his name. Charles, is not and has never been "The Prince Charles." Edward was "The Prince Edward" at one time but once he became "The Earl of Wessex" that became his title and Sophie took his title.


NO

Charles was born Prince Charles and on his mother's accession became The Prince Charles, Duke of Cornwall etc.

He was and still is The Prince Charles. His wives take all of his titles true - including his title of Prince but never was Diana Princess Diana but she was a Princess so what name did she have as a princess - The Princess Charles. His first title is that of Prince and as such his wives take all of his titles - including that of Princess but in Britain they don't take the title Princess own name but rather Princess husband's name in the way that Prince Micheal's wife is Princess Michael.

They don't lose the title The Prince xxx when given another title but simply use the other titles more often. The same thing say with the fact that Edward is currently The Earl of Wessex. The intention is that at some point in the future he will become The Duke of Edinburgh. He won't cease to be The Earl of Wessex but will use the other title more often. Even more confusing is who is currently The Viscount Severn - no not James but Edward. James uses his father's second title as a courtesy title but substantively it is Edward's. When, and if, Edward is created Duke of Edinburgh the James will start to use Earl of Wessex as a courtesy but Edward will still be The Earl of Wessex.

If Charles had no other title but Prince Charles (and as the son of the monarch The Prince Charles) then what title would his wives have had - simply The Princess Charles. Although they never used it they still had it because it is the most basic of Charles, his brothers and sister's titles. Charles is still The Duke of Cornwall despite being given the title Prince of Wales.

You don't lose one title just because you have been given another - you add titles to your list of titles.
 
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HRH Prince/Princess of the UK are styles regulated by the will of The Sovereign for lineal descendants of the blood royal in succession to the throne. It is a German practice brought over by the Hanovers when they succeeded to the British throne in 1714 to conform to existing titles used in the Germanic tradition.

In the UK, anyone who is not The Sovereign or created a Peer is a commoner, including Princes and Princesses. So, when a son or grandson of The Sovereign is created a Duke, they now have a title that is hereditary to their descendants, who eventually lose royal rank as HRH and take their precedence as Peers by date of creation.

So, a son or male-line grandson is HRH The Prince X or Prince X of Y, but they are also a Duke, Earl, etc. The same distinction applies to their wives, who are Princesses in rank and style, but take their titles after their husband's Peerage.
 
NO

He was and still is The Prince Charles. His wives take all of his titles true - including his title of Prince but never was Diana Princess Diana but she was a Princess so what name did she have as a princess - The Princess Charles. His first title is that of Prince and as such his wives take all of his titles - including that of Princess but in Britain they don't take the title Princess own name but rather Princess husband's name in the way that Prince Micheal's wife is Princess Michael.

It's the same with the courtesy titles of the sons and daughters of higher peers.
A Lady First name Family name always is the daughter of a peer, either of an earl, marquess or duke.
A Lord First Name Family Name is always the son of a marquess or duke.

So "Lady Anne Miller" Or "Lady Catherine Fisher" is always the daughter of a peer. When her brother "Lord Paul Something" marries, his wife, let's name her Zara, will share his title and rank, but only in the female form. So we can meet her as "Zara Something" or as "Lady Paul Something" but never as Lady Zara Something. Of course, if she herself was born a "Lady", then she keeps her own First name. But only in this case.

So Diana was "The Princess Charles" after her marriage but after her divorce could choose between the style of Diana, Princess of Wales or Lady Diana Mountbatten-Windsor and chose the first.

BTW - if the queen enobles women, she does not create them a "Lady" but a "Dame". I don't know how this works right now with Lady Antonia Fraser, who is a lady by birth as the daughter of a marquess but has now been personally ennobled as a "Dame". Is she now Dame Antonia or still Lady Antonia? Which title is higher? Maybe someone here knows that.
 
She's Lady Antonia Fraser, DBE.

Thank you, Lumutueen. Yes, it makes sense to put the new letters which signal her being a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire behind her name.

Another question: is Lady Antonia now a peer? As she is ennobled, she is no longer a commoner, or is she? We learned that even the daughter of a queen is a commoner as she is no peer. But as Princess Anne eg is a Dame of the Order of the Garter she is personally ennobled through that. Is se then no longer a commoner, even though as a princess she is?
 
I don't think that a person who is made a Dame is actually a noble just as a male given a knighthood isn't a peer or a noble. Dame is the feminine form for a knight while the male is Sir.

Again of course, the man is able to raise his wife in style but a woman can't raise her husband as the wife of a Sir is a Lady but a woman effectively knighted in her own right is a Dame.
 
William's title

Whatever title William and Catherine are given will revert back to "the crown" when Princes Charles become King, as William and Kate will then automatically become Duke & Duchess of Cornwall at that point.

Titles change with circumstance for example

Prince Charles title at birth was Prince Charles of Edinburgh, as his mother was the Duchess of Edinburgh at the time.

When Elizabeth ascended the throne, Charles became Duke of Cornwall, then when he was 18 was invested as Prince of Wales.

Princess Anne was Princess Anne of Edinburgh at birth then The Princess Anne and finally became the Princess Royal
 
I don't think that a person who is made a Dame is actually a noble just as a male given a knighthood isn't a peer or a noble. Dame is the feminine form for a knight while the male is Sir.

Again of course, the man is able to raise his wife in style but a woman can't raise her husband as the wife of a Sir is a Lady but a woman effectively knighted in her own right is a Dame.

I ust read the article on the Britsih honours system at Wikipedia and have now understood that in Britain really only peers are nobles. As long as a prince is not created a peer, he is a commoner like anyone else.

But the commoners are not a group of equal people as there are certain different "classes" according to the social rank and poistion in the order of precedence a person possesses. The most common thing is to inherit a social rank (sometimes coming with a certain style of adress) from father or (in rare cases of peeresses in her own right) mother or to acquire it through marriage as the wife shares the social rank of her husband.

But the queen as "fount of honour" can raise people to a higher social rank through conferring a peerage, a life peerage, a position or membership in an order or through conferring a position of precedence.

Thus the social position and precedence of Lady Antonia Fraser as daughter of a peer was already higher than the honour conferred on her as a dame commander of the order of the British empire. And even if the queen conferred a personal dukedom on her daughter Anne, she would not alter her social position and precedence through it. Anne would only become a peeress and thus be a "noble" but already she is higher up in the social ranks as any other non Royal noble of the UK.

That's the difference between Royal commoners and nobles. Though the members of the peerage are above most commoners, they are not above the Royal commoners, even if these Royals were not created peers.

I hope I got this right.

So the whole discussion about commoners marrying Royals is in the end pointless because Britain has a completely different system of social rank than other countries and being "noble" or "commoner" is not comparable eg to the (former) Germanic system or the French.

Catherine is a commoner now as she is not a peer and not the souverain. If William is not created a peer, the couple "Prince and Princess William of Wales" will both be commoners. But with the rank and precedence of a prince and princess-wife of the UK which is higher than any non-Royal duke.
 
That is correct. A Prince of the UK is of royal rank and takes precedence ahead of the non-royal Peers, but remains a commoner unless raised to the Peerage. Their style and rank is not hereditary, but when created a Peer, they now have a title which is.
 
What if change in the rules of succession

If the laws change to remove the precedence of male heirs, would Anne take the throne instead of Charles thereby interfering with any future titles for William and Catherine?
 
Hope this helps

If the laws change to remove the precedence of male heirs, would Anne take the throne instead of Charles thereby interfering with any future titles for William and Catherine?

No, Charles would still be heir as he was first-born.

The new line of succession would look like:

Charles
William
(any children born to William in the order they were born)
Harry
Anne
Peter
Savannah
Zara
Andrew
Beatrice
Eugenie
Edward
Louise
James


etc.
 
No, Camilla is not "The Princess Charles" and Diana was never "The Princess Charles." Similarly, Sophie is not "The Princess Edward." A British royal wife takes her husband's title, not his name. Charles, is not and has never been "The Prince Charles." Edward was "The Prince Edward" at one time but once he became "The Earl of Wessex" that became his title and Sophie took his title.


You're wrong. A British royal wife takes both her husband's title AND name.

Diana was The Princess Charles, Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, etc,. That is what Camilla is now. Sarah was The Princess Andrew, Duchess of York, etc,. Sophie is The Princess Edward, Countess of Wessex, etc,.

So when William and Catherine marry, she will be HRH Princess William of Wales. If William is made a peer, she will be HRH Princess William of Wales, Countess/Duchess of X.
 
Whatever title William and Catherine are given will revert back to "the crown" when Princes Charles become King, as William and Kate will then automatically become Duke & Duchess of Cornwall at that point.

Titles change with circumstance for example

I believe that all of William and Kate's titles they receive will not revert back to the Crown until William becomes King. At marriage if William is not created a Duke or Earl, they will be HRH Prince William and HRH Princess William of Wales. If created a peer, then the title would be added to their list of titles such as then William being HRH Prince William of Wales, Duke of Hogwarts . Kate would most like choose to be styled as HRH The Duchess of Hogwarts rather than Princess William of Wales. When Charles ascends the throne, the titles Duke and Duchess of Cornwall and any other titles received are then added to the list including Prince of Wales should Charles deem to invest his son with that title.
 
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While Kate will legally be Princess William, I really hope she isnt actually called that on a daily basis. Frankly, the only member of the BRF to be saddled with that is Princess Michael, who was a divorced Catholic from a nazi leaning family when she married into the BRF. Kate has no such baggage.
 
While Kate will legally be Princess William, I really hope she isnt actually called that on a daily basis. Frankly, the only member of the BRF to be saddled with that is Princess Michael, who was a divorced Catholic from a nazi leaning family when she married into the BRF. Kate has no such baggage.

I think she would tend to lean towards a more feminine style too although I do think her favorite "style" will be whatever William calls her in private. :D
 
Princess Catherine ??

The man said "The Queen could allow Kate to be called Princess Catherine. Which she could do. It's very improbable that she will though.

Yes, I agree - very improbable - there was a bust up a few years ago - the 4 royal-born princesses Anne, Eugenie, Beatrice & Alexandra fussed about precedence & this exact sort of thing. And the queen upheld their protest
 
While Kate will legally be Princess William, I really hope she isnt actually called that on a daily basis. Frankly, the only member of the BRF to be saddled with that is Princess Michael, who was a divorced Catholic from a nazi leaning family when she married into the BRF. Kate has no such baggage.


Her religion and/or family issues don't have anything to do with why she's called Princess Michael. She's called as such, because her husband is not a peer. Hence her only title is HRH Princess Michael of Kent. If her husband was a peer, she'd be styled and titled exactly like every other woman who marries a peer in the BRF -- HRH The Duchess/Countess of ______.
 
Her religion and/or family issues don't have anything to do with why she's called Princess Michael. She's called as such, because her husband is not a peer. Hence her only title is HRH Princess Michael of Kent. If her husband was a peer, she'd be styled and titled exactly like every other woman who marries a peer in the BRF -- HRH The Duchess/Countess of ______.


Exactly - Princess Michael had only one title to take on board as her husband only had the one title Prince Michael.
 
If the laws change to remove the precedence of male heirs, would Anne take the throne instead of Charles thereby interfering with any future titles for William and Catherine?


No because Charles is older than Anne.

Charles was born in 1948 so he has always been the heir apparent and would be followed by his sons in order.

Anne was born in 1950 and would thus move ahead of her younger brothers, Andrew born in 1960 and Edward born in 1964.

Anne's children would follow her with Savannah coming after her father.

The other change would put Louise ahead of James as Louise was born before her younger brother.

However...

I wouldn't expect it to change for Anne and her descendents but for William's descendents.
 
It was announced Edward would become The Duke of Edinburgh upon the death of his parents, not Philip. Charles, or William if his father died before becoming King, will inherit Philip's peerages in due course as his male heirs of the body.

Once Charles is King, all of his titles merge with the Crown (the Sovereign cannot be a Peer) and Edinburgh is available to be recreated as a Dukedom for Prince Edward.

I think Charles will carry out his mother's wish because it is well documented.
 
Thanks, windsorgirl!

I read an article that claims PW wants Kate to be named a Princess in her own right but I am hoping/betting he will be named a Duke (Cambridge?) instead.
 
Thanks, windsorgirl!

I read an article that claims PW wants Kate to be named a Princess in her own right but I am hoping/betting he will be named a Duke (Cambridge?) instead.

The press claimed William wants Catherine to be known as "Princess Catherine" when they marry, but that's just speculation and we have no idea if it's true. Even if she was permitted that style, she would not be a princess in her own right, but a princess by marriage only.

I doubt The Queen will change tradition for her grandson's wife and Catherine will be styled after his Peerage, which is very likely to be a dukedom since William is the heir to the heir.
 
No - she will be HRH Princess William of Wales - not HRH The Princess William of Wales. Only the children of the monarch can use 'The' with a capital 'T'. William is not 'The' Prince William but just Prince William.

There are currently seven people who have the right to use the word the with a capital 'T' The Prince Philip, The Prince Charles, The Princess Charles, The Prince Andrew, The Prince Edward, The Princess Edward and The Princess Anne. William will become The Prince William when Charles becomes King and Harry will then also become The Prince Harry (Henry).
...

http://www.royal.gov.uk/pdf/Coats of arms/ANNEX C - Royal Family.pdf

According to this site, William and Henry are indeed, The(s). as well as several others, not only the 7 listed above.
 
Who can we trust?

:confused:
That site would be wrong then, and they need to change that. The only people in the BRF entitled to "The" before their names are the Queen's husband, her children, and her two daughters-in-law. William and Harry will not get "The" before their names until Charles is King.

Then this is not the official royal.gov.uk site? :confused: Maybe I should send them a quick email...
 
It is incorrect. Only the children of The Sovereign are known as "HRH The Prince/Princess X". The male-line grandchildren are "HRH Prince/Princess X of Y".

The only exception to this general practice is The Duke of Edinburgh. In 1957, The Queen issued Letters Patent creating him a Prince of the UK and declared his style and title to be "HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh".
 
I don't doubt what you say, I am just surprised that the official website got it wrong! "The King (or Queen) can do no wrong", butapparently her webmaster can!
 
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I don't doubt what you say, I am just surprised that the official website got it wrong! "The King (or Queen) can do no wrong", butapparently her webmaster can!

Well, they list Sarah, Duchess of York as a member of the Royal Family....:whistling:

In addition the webpage of The Prince of Wales explicitely calls William HRH Prince William of Wales, without a "The".
 
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i fervently wish they would 'get rid of '
Sarah once and for all, yech!!


What an awful thing to say about a much loved mother. Her two girls adore her and to wish that they would be without their mother is just plain nasty - no matter what you think of Sarah she is a mother and a mother who is loved by her daughters.
 
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