Prince William and Catherine Middleton Possible Titles

[muriel]

I can see the rationale for William not wanting a dukedom and wanting to continue to be refererd to Prince W. After all, in a few years he will, in all probability, be PoW.

As to a title for Catherine, IMO a neat solution (as pointed out previously) would be an announcement on the morning of the wedding that whilst her official title would be........... Princess William...., HM has consented for her to be styled as Princess Catherine. Her place in the order of precedence would contiunue to be drawn from her husband. I see absolutely no rationale for her to be created a Princess in her own right.

I also do not think there are any issues of fairness wrt to Princess Michael or Camilla. Camilla remains Princess of Wales, and it was her choice (and probably that of her husband) to use one of her lesser titles (and no, Camilla will not need to curtesy to Catherine). As regards M-C, she is too far removed from the main line for this to be a particularly relevant discussion in the autumn of her life.

 

[branchg]

I would think The Queen will make it clear to William (as she undoubtedly has in the past when necessary) that as a future King, he must accept there are traditions and practice that must be upheld by the Crown as the fount of honours.

One of these is that a woman who marries a man of superior title and rank automatically assumes his style and title in the female form as his wife. No other style applies. Therefore, he has a choice of being created a Peer, thus providing his wife with a title upon marriage, or he may choose to remain Prince William, with his wife assuming the style of Princess William.

That's the way it goes. Once William is King, he can decide to change everything, but not before.

 

[texankitcat]

The Queen has made exceptions before, and she can certainly do so again. I agree that it does not make sense for William to take a Ducal title upon marriage just for the sake of giving Kate a title of her own. Should he do so, in his lifetime he will assume 4 different titles:

1. Prince William of Wales (born as)
2. Duke of ?? (upon marriage)
3. Prince of Wales + numerous other hereditary titles. (upon Charles
ascending throne if he bestows POW to William)
4. King William

Rather confusing for everyone considering the above.

As for Princess Michael....her husband isn't in in line to the throne since he gave up that right upon marriage to a Roman Catholic. She also does not carry out royal duties. IMO, she should not factor in to the issue of a Princess title for Catherine.

 

[branchg]

The Queen made an exception for her aunt, Alice, because The Duchess specifically requested it and was a senior member of the royal family as the widow of a son of George V ("HRH The Princess Henry"). She also wished to distinguish herself from her daughter-in-law and preferred not be styled as a Dowager Duchess.

She also made some unique concessions to Diana, Princess of Wales as the mother of a future king and former wife of the heir to the throne. But that was also part of a separation and divorce agreement in which The Princess retained certain rights and precedence.

I do not see how either situation compares to her young grandson marrying someone. Even though William is a future King, his wife is not going to be carrying out tons of duties at first and the plan is to keep a low profile for awhile. She can do that just fine as The Duchess or Countess of X.

 

[Lumutqueen]

There isn't just Princess Michael to factor in, there is all the other hardworking female wives.
If he gets a dukedom upon marriage, HM might just leave it and wait till he assumes the Dukedom of Cornwall and Rothesay.
4 different 'stages' of title doesn't really seem that confusing.

 

[jemagre]

...Even though William is a future King, his wife is not going to be carrying out tons of duties at first and the plan is to keep a low profile for awhile. She can do that just fine as The Duchess or Countess of X.

Agreed. Since she is going to be so low profile what about no title at all. She could be called Mrs. Kate Wales when she goes on engagements and save the titles when Charles becomes king.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Agreed. Since she is going to be so low profile what about no title at all. She could be called Mrs. Kate Wales when she goes on engagements and save the titles when Charles becomes king.

She will be Princess William of Wales, and if she was going to be known simply as a Mrs; it would be Mrs Catherine Windsor.
Low Profile? She'll be the wife of the second in line to the throne, she might not do things straight away but she'll certainly be in the limelight.

 

[Skippy]

She will be Princess William of Wales, and if she was going to be known simply as a Mrs; it would be Mrs Catherine Windsor.
Low Profile? She'll be the wife of the second in line to the throne, she might not do things straight away but she'll certainly be in the limelight.

Agreed, to think she'll have a low profile is underestimating.

 

[jemagre]

I meant in the sense that she is not going to be working straight out of the gate. I was under the perception that she is primarily going to be a military wife and taken on events with William. As for the press well clearly in that sense she will be in the limelight, but will her work reflect more Princess Anne or more Beatrice and Eugenie.

Yes, i am well aware of the fact that it took Anne years to build up her appearences. I was thinking more like role-models.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I personally would expect Catherine to be progressing in the royal engagements while William is still in the military. She's going to look pretty useless if she is just a military wife and only attends events with William.

 

[jemagre]

I personally would expect Catherine to be progressing in the royal engagements while William is still in the military. She's going to look pretty useless if she is just a military wife and only attends events with William.

I think we call all agree on that or maybe not .It would be great if rather than giving the public all of these pictures the palace would give the public some information on how she plans to spend her public time after the marriage. In my opinion that would be far more interesting. At least some information on her general field of choice. For example: I really like children so I would prefer to work with children charities.

Whatever it is I hope she is more hands on than she has been in the past. Just showing up to an event is not enough. Yes, I know she planned a roller-disco charity but since then she has only attended the van straubenzee charity event and the starlight foundation. Both of which are supported by either William or Harry. Even a clarification on how she sees her role. Will she branch out on her own or will she just support William in his life?

 

[Lumutqueen]

Well they haven't given us many pictures, and the palace probably don't know what she's going to do when she's married. She may have a honeymoon pregnancy which would stop her jumping straight into heavy engagements.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that Catherine would look "pretty useless" if she only attended events with William. You don't throw the girl into the deep end until you know she can swim. Let them be married for a while and get used to living as a military couple and then ease her into doing events/engagements on her own or with William. I would actually think it best if Catherine took on charity work or involved herself in Welsh happenings since that's where they'll be living and it'll give her some experience before her and William start doing more heavy-duty work.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I didn't mean drop her straight into the deep end, but IMO if she only surfaces when she is on the arm of William she will look useless. She needs to learn how to do things on her own either in Wales or in England.

 

[cmbruno]

Whatever title she gets she will be known as Princess Catherine / Kate outside UK. Maybe Lady Kate? I know, I know, it is not correct...

 

[Sister Morphine]

On that, I agree with you.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Whatever title she gets she will be known as Princess Catherine / Kate outside UK. Maybe Lady Kate? I know, I know, it is not correct...

She'll only be known as Princess Catherine or Princess Kate to the press, because it's far easier to just call her that in a story or something than say "Princess William" or "The Duchess of X".

 

[Lumutqueen]

Whatever title she gets she will be known as Princess Catherine / Kate outside UK. Maybe Lady Kate? I know, I know, it is not correct...

She'll probably be called Princess Catherine everywhere, even in the UK. It is indeed incorrect, but then we know who has done their research and who hasn't.

 

[jemagre]

She'll only be known as Princess Catherine or Princess Kate to the press, because it's far easier to just call her that in a story or something than say "Princess William" or "The Duchess of X".

They call Camilla by her title and not Princess Camilla. Same with Sophie. I think Diana got called Princess Diana because they didn't want to type out Diana, Princess of Wales.

 

[branchg]

While I'm sure the Palace and The Queen will do their best not to throw Catherine head-first into a heavy schedule of public duties the minute she gets married, they will also expect her to take on an ever-increasing load.

She is the wife of the second-in-line to the throne and cannot be hiding away living on a military base somewhere. The public will expect to see her out there doing her duty. The Queen isn't getting any younger, nor is The Duke of Edinburgh, and other members of the family are going to have start stepping up to the plate as they continue to age.

 

[Lumutqueen]

They call Camilla by her title and not Princess Camilla. Same with Sophie. I think Diana got called Princess Diana because they didn't want to type out Diana, Princess of Wales.

Possible because Camilla has a Duchess title and Sophie has a Countess title. Diana was Princess of Wales so Princess Diana seemed easier.

 

[Sister Morphine]

They call Camilla by her title and not Princess Camilla. Same with Sophie. I think Diana got called Princess Diana because they didn't want to type out Diana, Princess of Wales.

Camilla and Sophie are not referred to as Princess Camilla or Princess Sophie because for one, those aren't their titles and two, their husbands are peers and they are known by the corresponding title -- The Duchess of Cornwall and The Countess of Wessex. If Edward wasn't a peer and was still known as The Prince Edward officially, then Sophie might get the "Princess Sophie" treatment in the press, or she might be referred to correctly, HRH The Princess Edward.

Diana was called Princess Diana both while she was married and afterward, but if a reporter or journalist she was interviewed by called her as such, she was quick to correct them.

 

[Zonk]

Guys we are just repeating ourselves.

 

[branchg]

Part of the reason Diana was often called "Princess Diana" was because she was "HRH The Princess of Wales". Unlike Camilla or Sophie, she was not styled as a Duchess or Countess, so it was easier to fall into the habit of calling her that. No one ever referred to The Duchess of York as "Princess Sarah" either while married.

Ironically, Diana herself did not like being called "Princess Diana" because she felt being "Princess of Wales" was only topped by being Queen. To her, there were plenty of Princesses running around already, but only one Princess of Wales.

 

[Osipi]

Agreed. Since she is going to be so low profile what about no title at all. She could be called Mrs. Kate Wales when she goes on engagements and save the titles when Charles becomes king.

OHHH.. I think Mrs. Catherine Mountbatten-Windsor has a classy ring to it too.

 

[AnnEliza]

Possible because Camilla has a Duchess title and Sophie has a Countess title. Diana was Princess of Wales so Princess Diana seemed easier.

I just remember that the press insisted on calling her Lady Di when they got engaged, and just went from that to Princess Di, then later Princess Diana. It was said at the time that her title was never Princess Diana, but that didn't stop everyone from saying it, perhaps because The Princess of Wales seemed like a mouthful -- although so is the Duchess of Cornwall, but the press says that; but most of the time they just call her Camilla. Maybe like the press members who never stopped calling Diana "Lady Di" even after she was married.

 

[branchg]

Diana was a unique situation as the first woman to marry The Prince of Wales since HRH Princess Alexandra of Denmark married HRH The Prince Edward, Prince of Wales. There was a tremendous amount of publicity and media coverage of the wedding and she was only 19 years old at the time. Once she gave birth to William, she became an important person in her own right as the mother of the future King.

Catherine is not in the same situation and the idea is to avoid all the stresses and pressure that Diana endured from the moment she married into the family. It seems to me that being a Countess or Duchess, rather than Princess Catherine, lowers her profile a bit and would be better in achieving that goal.

 

[Mirabel]

I thought the Heir Presumptive was automatically Duke of Clarence?
Or don't they want to use that title because the last Duke of Clarence had such a poor reputation?

 

[Iluvbertie]

I thought the Heir Presumptive was automatically Duke of Clarence?
Or don't they want to use that title because the last Duke of Clarence had such a poor reputation?

No - William IV was Duke of Clarence but he was only heir presumptive for about 2 years - from the death of his older brother The Duke of York until the death of George IV. George VI was also heir presumptive throughout 1936 but was already Duke of York and didn't add an automatic title on the death of his father to indicate that new position.

The next Duke of Clarence was in William's position - heir apparent to the heir apparent but when he died his brother was created Duke of York.

There is no automatic title for an heir presumptive partly because they can be replaced in the line of succession.

 

[branchg]

I thought the Heir Presumptive was automatically Duke of Clarence?
Or don't they want to use that title because the last Duke of Clarence had such a poor reputation?

There is no automatic Peerage for the male heir to the heir. The last one was Prince Eddy, Duke of Clarence and Avondale, who died before his father, Edward, Prince of Wales, became King Edward VII.

His brother, George, Duke of York, married Eddy's financee, Princess Mary of Teck, and they automatically became The Duke and Duchess of Cornwall and York when Queen Victoria died in 1901. At the end of the year, they became The Prince and Princess of Wales.