Prince William and Catherine Middleton Possible Titles

[MRSJ]

But the question is why? Why would the Queen issue LP's for the wife of her grandson (before she has even done anything) when many women before her (aunts, cousins in law, daughters in law) have worked very hard during their lifetimes for the BRF. And Kate gets a title out of the box. Makes no sense IMO.

Frankly, I don't think it matters to Kate on whether or not she is in a Princess in her own right or HRH Duchess of Whatever. And I also agree, that this bit of "news" should be taken with a grain of salt.

You're right no reason to actually do so I just wanted to confirm she could for my own knowledge- thank you! Also other posters who said the Queen could just decide she to be known as Princess Catherine thank you! Of course who knows if that article is correct and William even asked this, guess we will know on April 29th

 

[branchg]

But Princess Diana never made a Princess in her own right. That is a title that the media and we (general public) bestowed upon her. Incorrectly, one might add.

Diana was a bit of a unique situation, as she became the mother of the two spares to the throne and was granted her own rights with the official separation of The Wales. She also retained her precedence and status.

Though she was never officially "Princess Diana", the Palace often referred to her as such, implying The Queen accepted the style without objection for the mother of a future King. Once the divorce was final, she lost her rank of HRH, but was still referred to by the Palace as "The Princess", even though she was no longer a Princess of the UK.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Being known as Princess Catherine isn't the same as being Princess Catherine - afterall HRH The Princess of Wales was often referred to as Princess Diana even though she wasn't but she was never referred to as Princess Diana in the Court Circular.

 

[cmkrcwi]

Camilla is a princess now - HRH The Princess Charles.
Sophie is also a princess - HRH The Princess Edward.

Camilla is not now, nor has she ever been "The Princess Charles." Similarly, Sophie is not now, nor has she ever been "The Princess Edward." They are HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and HRH The Countess of Wessex respectively. A British royal bride takes her husband's title and style; she does not take his name. The reason why Kate would be HRH Princess William of Wales is because that is William's title. If the Queen were to disregard his alleged request and make him say The Duke of Cambridge, Kate would be The Duchess of Cambridge because again, that would be William's title.

 

[branchg]

They are both. With marriage to a son of The Sovereign, both Camilla and Sophie became HRH Princesses of the UK. Because their husbands also are Royal Peers, they take their style and title as the wives of Peers, but with royal rank as HRH.

 

[Jacknch]

Gosh I do hope April 29th comes round quick enough so we can find out what the title will or will not be!!
Given the fact that A) Camilla asked to be styled or known as the Duchess of Cornwall thus ignoring the tradition and convention of using her husband's main title B) Prince Edward asked for the style and title of an ancient earldom rather than a dukedom, thus ignoring the usual convention/tradition for the son of a monarch C) Princess Anne asked for no title to be given to her children, thus ignoring the usual convention for grandchildren of a monarch, It does make me wonder whether Prince William is well within his rights to firstly refuse another title and then request that although Katherine will have the style and title of Princess William he and she would prefer it if she could be allowed to be known as Princess Katherine without LPs being issued and without becoming a princess in her own right? Or maybe I should just start saying Princess William over and again just to get used to it?!

 

[Iluvbertie]

Camilla is not now, nor has she ever been "The Princess Charles." Similarly, Sophie is not now, nor has she ever been "The Princess Edward." They are HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and HRH The Countess of Wessex respectively. A British royal bride takes her husband's title and style; she does not take his name. The reason why Kate would be HRH Princess William of Wales is because that is William's title. If the Queen were to disregard his alleged request and make him say The Duke of Cambridge, Kate would be The Duchess of Cambridge because again, that would be William's title.

Camilla is most certainly The Princess Charles. As he has other titles she uses those but she is also The Princess Charles. Sophie is also HRH The Princess Edward.

The obvious way to look at this is ask yourself what would Camilla be known as if Charles had no other titles and the simple answer is The Princess Charles. If the Queen hadn't created Edward an Earl on his wedding day Sophie would be known as The Princess Edward.

That is the same with the Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent. As their husbands have other titles they don't use the Prince husband's name but they most certainly have that title.

Princess Micheal of Kent uses that style because her husband has no other title.

 

[Madame Royale]

Camilla is not now, nor has she ever been "The Princess Charles." Similarly, Sophie is not now, nor has she ever been "The Princess Edward." They are HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and HRH The Countess of Wessex respectively. A British royal bride takes her husband's title and style; she does not take his name. The reason why Kate would be HRH Princess William of Wales is because that is William's title. If the Queen were to disregard his alleged request and make him say The Duke of Cambridge, Kate would be The Duchess of Cambridge because again, that would be William's title.

Camilla's full style and designations are...

Her Royal Highness The Princess Charles Philip Arthur George, Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness of Renfrew, Lady of the Isles, Princess of Scotland.

 

[Kataryn]

Please can I get one point across.

ALL the wives of the men are Princesses but they use their husband's names. It is the same thing as any woman marrying - technically Mrs Jane Smith is the divorced wife of Mr John Smith and Mrs John Smith is the correct technical form of the wife of Mr John Smith.

To make Catherine Princess Catherine officially (which is what it seems William wants) will require LPs and would also mean creating the other wives of Princes Princess own name in their own right. The only one that would change the way that they are known would be Princess Michael of Kent who would be known then as Princess Marie-Christine rather than Princess Michael.

There is a difference between the title and the style e.g. Camilla uses her husband's title of Duchess of Cornwall but she is also Princess Charles and thus a Princess.

What this report suggests is that William wants to change that styling - fine - so long as it applies to all the other princesses by marriage, even if they use titles additional to the title Princess.

Whatever way the Queen goes on this Kate's titles will be HRH Princess xxxx of Wales, then Duchess of Cornwall, then probably Princess of Wales and finally Queen. She wouldn't go backwards from being a Princess to being a Duchess on the accession of Charles but would add additional titles to the basic title of Princess.

As wives of descendants of Princess Elizabeth of Scotland and England (who was the mother of the electress Sophia, from whom the electress inherited her right to the English and Scottish throne) and male-line descendants of George I. all these ladies could use the title of "Princess of Scotland" as it is part of their husband's titles. And Scottish tradition allows the wife of a prince to use her own name. Thus Catherine could be called HRH Princess Catherine of Scotland and Wales...

 

[Dierna23]

I doubt that William will ask his grandmother to make Catherine a Princess in her own right.

What would be the purpose. I am would assume that he knows what would be involved and why go thru the hassle. And frankly, it isn't done in the BRF and I can't see the purpose of doing it now.

I totally agree. I'd like to add that to me the idea of styling the women within the BRF as Princesses in their own right wouldn't be a bad idea. If - which, again, I doubt - Kate will be styled Princess Catherine, then there should be a Princess Birgitte, Princess Marie-Christine etc, too. An exception only for the wife of Prince William I would find pretty unfair, but that's only me. However, I can very well imagine that, if she will be Princess William, the press will call her "Princess Kate" or "Princess Catherine", though.

 

[Zonk]

I totally agree!

Come April 29th...she will be known as Princess Kate, Princess Catherine or Duchess Kate whether its the correct form or not.

And again, Brigitte, Camilla, Katharine, Sophie, Marie Christine have all represented the BRF in a positive and productive manner and they aren't Princessess in their own names. And frankly, I don't think they care.

Certainly there is a difference between a future Queen Consort of England and a cousin in laws....but whats the point. The Queen isn't going to set up a new precedent for Kate.

 

[branchg]

It would not be appropriate for Catherine to be "Princess Catherine" upon marriage to William. It raises questions in terms of precedent and practice (i.e. can wives of Peers also take their titles and precedence upon marriage in their own right, which means they could legally claim to retain it after divorce?), and there is no reason for it.

A wife has always taken the style, title and rank of her husband upon marriage in the UK, whether royal or a Peer (or both). To suddenly change all that for one woman opens a can of worms in my opinion.

 

[Kataryn]

But for commoners the usage has changes. It's not longer automatically Mr. and Mrs. X. Y. , she can opt to keep her own name or take his last name with her own first name. Probably due to gender equality, which has rooted in most people's mind. Maybe this is a good chance to think about gender equality when it comes to W&K.

If you translate "Prince and Princess William of Wales" as Prince William of Wales and his princess-wife then it doesn't sound so ridiculous. Just like the Duchess of Y is the Duke's duchess. It has something very romantic to it that the newly-wed wife takes his titles and styles because now as a couple they can share what was once only his.

But I always liked the way Charles and Camilla showed as a married couple that they are individuals. Charles obviously doesnt have a "Princess of Wales" while Camilla doesn't have a "Duke of Cornwall" by her side when in England apart from Cornwall. (As an aside: does she call herself "Princess of Wales" when in Wales?). of course this is different bacause due to tradition the title of The Duke of Cornwall is as high as the title of the Prince of Wales. If not higher as the Duke of Cornwall is always the direct heir, the oldest son of the monarch, while the Prince of Wales can be a grandson. So the Duchess of Cornwall is as high-ranked as the Princess of Wales but has her own name/title so to speak.

 

[branchg]

Charles has many titles as the eldest son and heir to the throne, in addition to being The Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester. As his wife, Camilla is first and foremost "HRH The Princess Charles" as the wife of a son of The Sovereign. If he had no other titles, that would be her style.

Legally, she is The Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, just as the late Diana was while married. Out of sensitivity to her memory, Camilla chose to use her ducal title as her style in England and Wales (in Scotland, she is "HRH The Princess Charles, Duchess of Rothesay"). But this is simply a choice on her part and does not mean she is not Princess of Wales.

So, the point remains the same. William has no other titles at the present other than "HRH Prince William of Wales". If he asks The Queen not to create him a Peer, his wife will have no choice but to be known as "HRH Princess William of Wales", just as Marie-Christine is styled.

Since he is the spare to the throne, it is appropriate The Queen create him a Duke upon marriage, or if not, an Earl for now. At that point, his wife will have a title other than "Princess William" and there is no need to change precedent.

 

[AnnEliza]

Royal wedding: Prince William asks the Queen not to make him a duke - Telegraph

The Queen faces a dilemma over what to call Kate Middleton after Prince William suggests that she should become 'Princess Catherine'.

Mandrake can disclose that the 28 year-old has, however, let it be known that he would prefer to remain Prince William rather than be made a duke.

"He says he was born Prince William and wants to continue to be known as that," says a courtier. "He wants Kate to become Princess Catherine."

But I think we have to take it with a big grain of salt when they have unnamed sources, like a random courtier as this quote says. I doubt that the Queen has said anything to anyone about having some kind of dilemma. It sounds like it's all rumor. And who's Mandrake?

 

[Sister Morphine]

The thing to remember is that the Queen is the font of all honors so whatever she's called, she'll be called so at the Queen's behest. I personally don't think she'll be made a princess in her own right, nor do I think she should. There is no precedence for that in the UK, and the two instances where the Queen allowed a widowed Duchess to use the title "Princess" before her own name were for the Duchess of Gloucester and the Duchess of Kent, both of whom were married to her uncles. It would be unfair for Catherine to get that honor/privilege when there are other more senior married ladies in the BRF that weren't given that option or choice.

She'll either be HRH Princess William of Wales or HRH The Duchess/Countess of X, if the Queen bestows William with a dukedom or earldom when he marries. Otherwise, you'll have to wait for her to be Queen herself before you see her own given name immediately follow her title.

 

[Iluvbertie]

A technical question: If HM did not have to issue LPs for Lady Louise or Viscount Severn NOT to be called Princess or Prince, rather just announce that "it was decided....", why could she not issue a similar decision regarding Catherine? Or could she? As I understand it, all titles are at her discretion -- that her word is all it takes. Please advise.

One big difference is that as the children of an Earl they are also Lady Louise and Lord Severn so they are just using lesser titles whereas Princess Catherine would be a totally new title to be created for her and would thus need LPs to be legal.

 

[branchg]

If The Queen chose to allow it, she would simply announce on the morning of the wedding that Catherine would be known as "Princess Catherine" upon marriage to Prince William. Since Catherine would automatically become a Princess of the UK by marriage on her wedding day, the matter is simply one of permitting a different style than normally accorded.

It does not mean Catherine would be a Princess of the UK in her own right (she would not) nor does it change the 1996 Letters Patent in which The Queen decreed that a former wife of a Prince of the UK, other than a widow until she remarries, would not be entitled to HRH upon divorce.

It would simply be a style she is allowing Catherine to use upon marriage to her grandson.

 

[Iluvbertie]

However to be fair she would have to allow all such women the same right including Princess Michael of Kent. To do it for one and not all is discriminatory.

 

[branchg]

However to be fair she would have to allow all such women the same right including Princess Michael of Kent. To do it for one and not all is discriminatory.

Absolutely. It wouldn't be fair to her cousins' wives, some of whom have worked long and hard in service to public duty and the Crown.

Most importantly, in a modern world where even the heir to the throne divorces and remarries, it's all the more reason not to open the door to granting such a style outside normal practice and precedent.

 

[scooter]

ALL the wives of the men are Princesses but they use their husband's names. It is the same thing as any woman marrying - technically Mrs Jane Smith is the divorced wife of Mr John Smith and Mrs John Smith is the correct technical form of the wife of Mr John Smith.

Can I just point out that in this day and age many women do not take their husband's surname, choosing to either keep their maiden name of to hyphenate the two names.

 

[Osipi]

However to be fair she would have to allow all such women the same right including Princess Michael of Kent. To do it for one and not all is discriminatory.

The Queen probably could do whatever she wished I think along the same lines as bestowing the royal family order. They are given at the Queen's
discretion. Whereas the DoC has one, Princess Michael does not. The Queen consented to Camilla be styled as The Duchess of Cornwall so she could very well decide that Kate could be styled as Princess Catherine.

Whether or not she does it is a totally different ball of wax. I really can't see it happening as the title system has been intact more or less for a very long time and changing two styles in 6 years would allude to instability. Why it was done for Camilla was understandable. For Kate I think it is for less important reasons.

 

[branchg]

Yes, but Catherine is not marrying Mr. William Windsor and living happily ever after in obscurity. She is marrying the spare to the throne and a future King, so she might as well get used to the fact there are rules, and lots of them, when marrying into the royal family.

The style, titles and rank of wives marrying Peers or Princes of the UK is long established in precedent and practice. You don't change it for one woman who hasn't done a thing yet except getting married, especially when divorce is now accepted as part of life for the royal family.

William is naive if he thinks The Queen is going to suddenly start changing tradition for his new wife (assuming any of this speculation is even true). That isn't going to happen.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The Queen consented to Camilla be styled as The Duchess of Cornwall so she could very well decide that Kate could be styled as Princess Catherine.

Again Camilla is using one of Charles' titles in its feminine form.
Princess Catherine is NOT the feminine form of Prince William.
That is a bit difference. The feminien form of Prince William is Princess William.

 

[Iluvbertie]

...She is marrying the spare to the throne...

William isn't 'the spare'. He is the direct heir to his father. Harry is the spare as he would only be the heir if something happened to William.

 

[Sister Morphine]

The Queen consented to Camilla be styled as The Duchess of Cornwall

The Duchess of Cornwall was one of Camilla's titles the nanosecond after she married Charles. She's using it instead of The Princess of Wales, but that has nothing to do with the Queen.

 

[Madame Royale]

...but that has nothing to do with the Queen.

I've not heard that. I was certain that it in order for the Princess of Wales to be officially known by a subsidiary title, that it does require the permission of the monarch. That this particular designation is reserved for use in the Duchy, would therefore warrant the approval of the sovereign if it's to be officially observed as the Princess of Wales' public title.

Then again, I'm probably mistaken.

 

[branchg]

Duchess of Cornwall is her title in England, not just Cornwall. The title reflects the first dukedom created in England. In Wales, she is Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, while in Scotland, she is Duchess of Rothesay. Since these titles are hers automatically with marriage, she does not need the permission of The Queen to use one over the other as her style.

In the UK, she is HRH The Princess Charles as the wife of a son of The Sovereign.

 

[branchg]

Prince of Wales is considered to be superior to being Duke of Cornwall, mainly because of historical traditions of Wales being independent as a principality. It is not considered a Peerage since it is created by the will of the Sovereign and cannot be inherited.

The Dukedom of Cornwall is a peerage, but limited by charter to the eldest son of The Sovereign who is also the heir to the throne. It can only pass to the next eldest son of The Sovereign if an heir dies with no issue and the next eldest son becomes the heir to the throne. Otherwise, the dukedom and the income of the duchy revert to the Crown.

 

[Madame Royale]

Just goes to show that no matter how much knowledge you may have acquired over the years, you always learn something which at first wasn't apparent to you (ie; me)

Thanks for the explanation.