Prince of Wales or Alternate Title for William?

[Nitefeatherz]

Without getting into an argument over definitions, the word "commoner" means different things to different people.

• For most, and in general usage, it means anyone who is not royal or aristocratic;
• Prince of Canada's usage as "one who doesn't possess a title in the peerage";
• The Concise Oxford Dictionary as "one of the common people, as opposed to the aristocracy";
• The Wiki as "one who is neither the Sovereign nor a peer";
• and, in a more jocular tone, Princess Marina's view of anyone who was not born of the blood royal.
No doubt there are others.

The more restrictive usages would class Princes William, Harry and Michael of Kent, and the Princess Royal, Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie of York and Alexandra of Kent as commoners. Whether this makes sense or not depends entirely on the meaning one puts on the word "commoner".

We don't need to get bogged down in semantics or to split hairs, and in any case this thread is to discuss "Alternate title for William".

I've seen this term before and I'm not sure I understand. Exactly what IS a peerage???? I've heard the term peer used to describe others in your social group/standing, etc...

But specifically what does it mean to the royals????

 

[wbenson]

Exactly what IS a peerage????

A noble title. In the UK they are Duke, Marquess, Earl, Viscount, and Baron (Lord of Parliament in the Scottish peerage). There are hereditary peerages and life peerages. Until 1999, a hereditary peerage entitled a peer to a seat in the House of Lords (the upper chamber of Parliament). Now 92 remain, and plans are in the works to remove them, too. Life peers are all members of the House of Lords.

 

[PrinceOfCanada]

Minor nitpick. Plans are in the works to remove all but those whose peerage also confers a ceremonial office that is necessary to the House of Lords. Earl Marshal (Norfolk), for example.

And my understanding is that those 88 or so will be replaced by attrition. As they die, their seat becomes open for election.

 

[Madame Royale]

What of the 'Duke of Clarence and Avondale'?

I think that to be a fitting title for William. Though I'm not so sure whether it's possible or how it would be perceived. Though currently not held by anyone, and so free to be allotted at Her Majesty's discreation, or even that of the Prince of Wales when he succeeds.

Then again, maybe something entirely new...

 

[branchg]

Clarence, Cambridge, Sussex are all possibilities, as is something entirely new. It's also possible The Queen may create William an Earl for now, given the reality of her age and his succeeding Charles as heir to the throne in due time.

 

[Madame Royale]

It's also possible The Queen may create William an Earl for now, given the reality of her age and his succeeding Charles as heir to the throne in due time.

The above would be most fitting at this point in time I think. I quite like it.

If any such decision were to be considered, then to create him an Earl would be quite sufficient.

 

[kimebear]

Yes, but how would it look if William, the heir to the throne, is made HRH The Earl of Some Place upon his marriage and Harry becomes HRH The Duke of Some Place Better when he marries?

 

[Madame Royale]

When looking at the broader picture, not at all bad I'd have thought.

Harry would remain a Duke, whilst William will become King, and before that inherit the titles bestowed upon the heir apparent if still in observance. Let us place some perspective on it...

 

[kimebear]

I am keeping perspective on it. I don't see the queen allowing the heir to have a lesser title than his younger brother, no matter how briefly. For the same reason as the Prince of Wales ceremony that she insisted upon for Charles. Like making William a Knight of the Garter so young. He will always be held at a higher position because of what he will become.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

^Yeah, but I think William was made a KG at this time because it was the only way to get him in at the 1000 spot. The royal family love symbolism.

 

[Stefan]

I think Duke of Clarence would be right as one Duke of Clarence became King (William IV.) and another would habe became King if he lived longer (Albert Victor). But i have often read that it is regarded as unlucky so perhaps not.

 

[branchg]

Yes, but how would it look if William, the heir to the throne, is made HRH The Earl of Some Place upon his marriage and Harry becomes HRH The Duke of Some Place Better when he marries?

I doubt The Queen would create Harry a Duke upon marriage while leaving William to carry an earldom only. My point is in keeping with the recent trend of presenting a more "modern" image, it may be decided William and Harry will be created Earls while their grandmother reigns, with their father deciding which dukedom to bestow on Harry once he becomes The King.

 

[branchg]

I think Duke of Clarence would be right as one Duke of Clarence became King (William IV.) and another would habe became King if he lived longer (Albert Victor). But i have often read that it is regarded as unlucky so perhaps not.

I agree Clarence is very likely, although it is still extant with the dukedom of Albany as an earldom at present.

 

[Madame Royale]

I am keeping perspective on it. I don't see the queen allowing the heir to have a lesser title than his younger brother, no matter how briefly. For the same reason as the Prince of Wales ceremony that she insisted upon for Charles. Like making William a Knight of the Garter so young. He will always be held at a higher position because of what he will become.

And she may well not. It was a 'possibility' branchg highlighted, and one I would think appropriate at this point in time. Though having William created a Duke, is something I'd would anticipate sooner or later. I just don't think making Harry a Duke before his elder brother to be of any real concern, if it were to occur. But who knows...

 

[Ella Kay]

I doubt The Queen would create Harry a Duke upon marriage while leaving William to carry an earldom only. My point is in keeping with the recent trend of presenting a more "modern" image, it may be decided William and Harry will be created Earls while their grandmother reigns, with their father deciding which dukedom to bestow on Harry once he becomes The King.

This seems very possible to me, especially since Prince Edward will remain an earl until after the death of the Duke of Edinburgh. It seems strange that the princes would have superior titles to their uncle (though, of course, William's eventually going to outrank everyone, and they do precede him in the order of succession).

Plus, I would imagine there are plenty of earldoms that could be used or created anew for the princes when they marry. Perhaps Harry would be created an earl with the same sort of understanding that Edward and Prince Philip have -- when Prince Andrew dies, Harry would (as second son of a king) be created Duke of York?

 

[Stefan]

I agree Clarence is very likely, although it is still extant with the dukedom of Albany as an earldom at present.

But for William IV. it was Duke of Clarence and St. Andrews. The Queen can combine it with another title she or William wishes and is avalible or it can be only Duke of Clarence and not Duke of Clarence and ...

 

[Stefan]

This seems very possible to me, especially since Prince Edward will remain an earl until after the death of the Duke of Edinburgh. It seems strange that the princes would have superior titles to their uncle (though, of course, William's eventually going to outrank everyone, and they do precede him in the order of succession).

Plus, I would imagine there are plenty of earldoms that could be used or created anew for the princes when they marry. Perhaps Harry would be created an earl with the same sort of understanding that Edward and Prince Philip have -- when Prince Andrew dies, Harry would (as second son of a king) be created Duke of York?

But that's difficult. What if Andrew remarries and has a son with his second wife?? I think harry will get a ducal title when his father becomes King. In the Biography about Queen mary it is statet that Quuen Victoria didn'Ät want to give a ducal title to the future George V: when his brother was alive, because he was only third in line to the throne and created him only Duke of York afte the death of Albert Victor.

 

[Elspeth]

I remember in one biography (probably of Queen Mary) Queen Victoria is quoted as not liking royal dukedoms at all because she thought that being a Prince was something really special whereas there were so many Dukes floating around that it seemed to her to be a demotion. So maybe that was the origin of her reluctance. It would have been a real break with tradition for her to confer a dukedom on Eddy but not George.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Some people are saying that William and Harry might be granted earldoms upon marriage if they marry during the Queen's reign. This brings forth an idea/question for me. Do you suppose it is possible that they could each by courtesy use their father's earldoms? Like william could be Earl of Chester, and Harry the Earl of Carrick?

Maybe not, because I think the Earldom of Chester, if not also Carrick, is irretrievably locked with the PoW title. But it was just a thought....

 

[PrinceOfCanada]

If they were to use their father's lesser titles as courtesy titles, they would already be doing so. No, if they are to be granted Earldoms or Dukedoms, it will be in their own right, to be passed down to children (in Harry's case), or merge in the Crown (in William's). For Harry, the title will continue in much the same way that the Dukedom of Kent has, or Gloucester.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I suspect that if either prince marries during the reign of the present Queen they will then be granted their Dukedoms. If Harry were to marry before William I would expect William to get a Dukedom first anyway to have the older title.

Say William got Duke of London when his father becomes king he will then be known instantly as the Duke of Cornwall and London, just as George V spent from late January to early November 1901 as Duke of Cornwall and York.

When the time comes I expect Charles to seek advice from his Welsh ministers to decide on creating William Prince of Wales. If the advice is positive he will do so. If it is negative he will respect that advice and not do so and William will use the two Dukedoms while heir.

Harry will keep his own Dukedom and pass it down to his children.

 

[branchg]

This brings forth an idea/question for me. Do you suppose it is possible that they could each by courtesy use their father's earldoms? Like william could be Earl of Chester, and Harry the Earl of Carrick?

Not really. They are both Princes of the UK and Royal Highnesses by birth as the children of a son of a Sovereign. Their father, being the heir to the throne and eldest son of The Sovereign, holds his titles by grant or by automatic assumption in his own right only until he becomes King.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I can't honestly see Charles NOT conferring title of Prince of Wales on William when the time comes. That is as much historical precedent as Zadok the Priest being played during the Coronation. So I honestly don't know what other title he'd use, aside from Duke of Cornwall if for some reason PoW is not given to him. He'd probably only use DoC in that case.

 

[PrinceOfCanada]

Some people are saying that William and Harry might be granted earldoms upon marriage if they marry during the Queen's reign. This brings forth an idea/question for me. Do you suppose it is possible that they could each by courtesy use their father's earldoms? Like william could be Earl of Chester, and Harry the Earl of Carrick?

Maybe not, because I think the Earldom of Chester, if not also Carrick, is irretrievably locked with the PoW title. But it was just a thought....

As you commented.. the titles are inextricably entwined together.

However.. so are many other subsidiary titles, and yet the sons may use them as courtesy titles.

 

[Donna Mia]

yes, they may be used as courtesy titles.

 

[Jacknch]

Under the circumstances of Charles becoming King and the Prince of Wales title not being used again, how about William having the title HRH (The) Crown Prince William of The United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. Obviously for general media use he'll just be referred to as The Crown Prince here and abroad it would be Crown Prince William. Alternatively, could he not be known as The Prince Royal?

 

[Lumutqueen]

How about William having the title HRH (The) Crown Prince William of The United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. Obviously for general media use he'll just be referred to as The Crown Prince here and abroad it would be Crown Prince William. Alternatively, could he not be known as The Prince Royal?

Thats never been done before in the BRF I don't think. Crown Prince tends to translate into the title Prince of Wales.

The term Prince Royal is another term for Crown Prince, used for Portugal, Haiti and France in the day. IMO it would add confusion to whoever got the title The Princess Royal next.

 

[wbenson]

General posts about royal dukedoms have been moved to the Royal Dukes and Ducal Titles thread.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Under the circumstances of Charles becoming King and the Prince of Wales title not being used again, how about William having the title HRH (The) Crown Prince William of The United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. Obviously for general media use he'll just be referred to as The Crown Prince here and abroad it would be Crown Prince William. Alternatively, could he not be known as The Prince Royal?

Don't forget that the instant Charles becomes King William will be Duke of Cornwall etc and that title is restricted to the eldest son of the monarch who is also the heir to the throne. Whileever there is male preference in Britain that title Duke of Cornwall is held by the Crown Prince so there is no need for another title at all. And as the income of the heir comes from the Duchy of Cornwall estate is makes more sense to have that title be used by the heir as their primary title.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

Quoted from iluvbertie: "If Harry were to marry before William I would expect William to get a Dukedom first anyway to have the older title."

I don't think Harry will be "allowed" to marry before William. It's a good way to control the distribution of titles. All the Queen's sons married in birth order. A coincidence --- perhaps.