Prince George's Title


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kalnel

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Why isn't Prince George known as the Earl of Strathearn, taking a courtesy title from his father?

The sons of the other royal dukes (such as the Earl of St. Andrews and the Earl of Ulster) take titles from their fathers.
 
Because he is a Prince and third in line to the throne and future King.
 
Why isn't Prince George known as the Earl of Strathearn, taking a courtesy title from his father?

The sons of the other royal dukes (such as the Earl of St. Andrews and the Earl of Ulster) take titles from their fathers.

My guess is because it is a Scottish title and not one to be used as a courtesy title. When William is in Scotland, he is known as the Earl of Strathearn similar to Charles being known as the Duke of Rothesay while he's there.
 
Why isn't Prince George known as the Earl of Strathearn, taking a courtesy title from his father?

The sons of the other royal dukes (such as the Earl of St. Andrews and the Earl of Ulster) take titles from their fathers.

Perhaps when George is married he will take one of his father's titles. Right now, being a Prince sounds so much better than Earl of something.
 
George is HRH Prince George of Cambridge and therefore doesn't use one of his father's courtesy titles.

Only non-HRHs use courtesy titles e.g. when both the present Dukes of Gloucester and Kent were born they were known respectively as HRH Prince Edward of Kent and HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester. They didn't use their father's second titles (in the case of Gloucester of course Richard's late older brother was the heir anyway but he was still known as Prince William of Gloucester) even while they were the heirs. So Edward was born HRH Prince Edward of Kent and became HRH The Duke of Kent as a boy when his father died. His siblings are also a Prince and Princess. As his son isn't a Prince he uses the courtesy style of his father's second title - Earl of St Andrews. The same with the Gloucester. William was HRH Prince William of Gloucester until his death and Richard was HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester but again, because his son isn't a Prince he uses his father's second title as a courtesy and so he is known as the Earl of Ulster. Both the Earl's heirs use the Dukes' respective third titles - Baron Downpatrick and Baron Culloden. These boys will, on the deaths of their grandfathers' become the Earls of St Andrews or Ulster and finally The Dukes of Kent and Gloucester but they won't be HRHs (unless some really dreadful King Ralph scenario happens).

Their sons aren't HRHs and so use the second title as a courtesy as does Prince Edward's son, James who uses Viscount Severn as he isn't a HRH Prince - as per parental request and HM's permission.


George will, in all likelihood only add titles. Using Edward VIII as the example - the last great-grandson of a monarch destined to be a monarch from birth:


HRH Prince George of Cambridge
HRH Prince George of Cornwall and Cambridge
HRH Prince George of Wales
HRH The Duke of Cornwall
HRH The Prince of Wales
HM The King.


He may have a dukedom in his own right if the monarch of the day so decides of course.
 
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The style or title of Prince, apart from the Prince of Wales, is a title of courtesy in Britain anyway. It can be given or revoke for any reason simply at HM's pleasure without the advice of the government. In the case of Prince George the courtesy comes from the Sovereign.

A Prince is usually, but not always, created a Duke. A substantive title of their own. Prince Edward being the first son of a Sovereign in this dynasty going back to George I not created a Duke but rather an Earl.

James doesn't have the title of Prince (itself a courtesy) so he uses his father's lesser title by courtesy
 
Perhaps when George is married he will take one of his father's titles. Right now, being a Prince sounds so much better than Earl of something.
I don't think William will be Duke of Cambridge when George is married. ;)
 
I don't think William will be Duke of Cambridge when George is married. ;)

Depends. William may still be Duke of Cambridge but be using a higher titles such as Prince of Wales or he could still be Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge.

He could also be King.

Then again George could be King before he marries.
 
Depends. William may still be Duke of Cambridge but be using a higher titles such as Prince of Wales or he could still be Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge.

He could also be King.

Then again George could be King before he marries.

George may be gay and never marry. Well, not marry a woman. :cool:
 
Why isn't Prince George known as the Earl of Strathearn, taking a courtesy title from his father?



The sons of the other royal dukes (such as the Earl of St. Andrews and the Earl of Ulster) take titles from their fathers.


That's not true.

Charles is a son of a Royal Duke and has never used any of his father's titles.

William was the son of a Royal Duke and never used any of his father's titles either.

A person only uses curtesy titles if try don't hold their own titles - if a person has their own peerage or holds royal titles in their own right they don't also use curtesy titles.

As the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales George was entitled to being a Prince in his own right the moment he was born, thus never needed to use his father's curtesy titles.
 
The style or title of Prince, apart from the Prince of Wales, is a title of courtesy in Britain anyway. It can be given or revoke for any reason simply at HM's pleasure without the advice of the government. In the case of Prince George the courtesy comes from the Sovereign.

A Prince is usually, but not always, created a Duke. A substantive title of their own. Prince Edward being the first son of a Sovereign in this dynasty going back to George I not created a Duke but rather an Earl.

James doesn't have the title of Prince (itself a courtesy) so he uses his father's lesser title by courtesy

I'm not sure that you can be 'de-princed' (or de-princessed) under the British system, Rudolph. I know that King George V did so in 1917 to some of his relatives when he removed their princely German titles and gave them (lesser) British ones. However, in modern times, with the exception of Princess/Lady Patsy Ramsay (who removed her royal title by her own wish) I know of no male or female born a prince or princess of the House of Windsor (or Hanover or Stuart etc for that matter) who have had that particular style of address removed from them.
 
Thanks, Cris. Forgot about the unfortunate Alistair. (I've always been intrigued by his death.)

His styling was removed in that large reconstruction that happened in 1917. This restricted the titles of Princes/Princesses to the main line of descent. Edward's wasn't removed when he abdicated. It hasn't happened since and it's unlikely to happen to George.
 
I'm not sure that you can be 'de-princed' (or de-princessed) under the British system, Rudolph. I know that King George V did so in 1917 to some of his relatives when he removed their princely German titles and gave them (lesser) British ones. However, in modern times, with the exception of Princess/Lady Patsy Ramsay (who removed her royal title by her own wish) I know of no male or female born a prince or princess of the House of Windsor (or Hanover or Stuart etc for that matter) who have had that particular style of address removed from them.

You most certainly can. Not only 'de-princed' as we have seen with the Wessex children. You can also be 'princed' as we have seen with Charlotte. Just a few short years ago she would have been Lady Charlotte. She is as we know HRH Princess Charlotte of Cambridge.

In 1917, George V issued letters patent that precisely regulated these matters, specifying that a certain set of individuals were exclusively entitled to certain styles. Before 1917, styles and titles were regulated by a mixture of partial rules and customs.

But Letters Patent don't bind future monarchs, The Letters Patent of Queen Victoria didn't bind George V. Most importantly Letters Patent aren't the only way to create a Prince or Royal Highness unlike a Peer.

Common law has evolved in such a way that the Queen is free to style her family in the manner she chooses. IT's part of royal prerogative that's outside court challenge.

Prince: This style "is purely a courtesy and the holders of that title remain commoners until they are raised to the Peerage, the only exception being the eldest son of the Sovereign who at birth or, as in the case of Prince Charles, at his mother's accession to the Throne, immediately becomes Duke of Cornwall" (H. Austin Strutt, assistant under-secretary of state, in a memo dated June 17th, 1954 prepared for the Home Secretary; HO 286/50).

Contrast this with a peer. Holders of peerages are not just recipients of honours emanating from the sovereign, they are called to play an important constitutional role. For this reason, the dignity to which this role is linked has become part of constitutional law, and around it has grown a substantial body of law defining and protecting the rights and duties of holders of peerages. In particular, a peerage may only be created in a very specific form (by letters patent passed under the Great Seal) on government advice; holders of peerages cannot be deprived except by an Act of Parliament; peerages may be resigned only under certain procedures defined by statutes; etc.

Back to Prince George. Under Common Law being a prince doesn't give a person any rights that the average joe doesn't have. Prince Harry has no more legal rights than Peter Philips. William by virtue of being a Peer does.

The title of prince has been used in Britain solely to denote descent from a sovereign. Who, exactly, was so designated, has of course varied with time,

George doesn't use one of his father's title as a courtesy simply because he has his own title of courtesy 'Prince'
 
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Besides, it would sound ridiculous to say, "The Earl of Strathearn enjoyed an afternoon in the park, toddling around the playground and digging in a sandbox. His nanny helped him climb the jungle gym." :)
 
Upon Charles' accession to the throne, Prince William shall become Duke of Cornwall. Will George become HRH Prince George of Cornwall and Cambridge?
 
If William becomes Prince of Wales then George and Charlotte might have "of Wales" added to their current titles.
 
Upon Charles' accession to the throne, Prince William shall become Duke of Cornwall. Will George become HRH Prince George of Cornwall and Cambridge?

Yes as William will be His Royal Highness The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge

From 22 January 1901 – 9 November 1901, the future George V was styled His Royal Highness The Duke of Cornwall and York before being made Prince of Wales
 
... For this reason, the dignity to which this role is linked has become part of constitutional law, and around it has grown a substantial body of law defining and protecting the rights and duties of holders of peerages. In particular, a peerage may only be created in a very specific form (by letters patent passed under the Great Seal) on government advice; holders of peerages cannot be deprived except by an Act of Parliament; peerages may be resigned only under certain procedures defined by statutes; etc.

Back to Prince George. Under Common Law being a prince doesn't give a person any rights that the average joe doesn't have. Prince Harry has no more legal rights than Peter Philips. William by virtue of being a Peer does.
So, I have always wondered about the rights of peers, because any number of peerages come without income. Cambridge is one such.
Wikipedia (not the best - but at least it is editable and caries sources) says "Only three survived into the 20th century: the right to be tried by other peers of the realm instead of juries of commoners, freedom from arrest in civil (but not criminal) cases, and access to the Sovereign to advise him or her on matters of state.[1] The right to be tried by other peers was abolished in 1948. Legal opinion considers the right of freedom from arrest as extremely limited in application, if at all. The remaining privilege is not exercised and was recommended for formal abolition in 1999, but has never been formally revoked."

So, in short, you get the title and the respect that goes with it, but not much else in most cases.
And I'm not saying George should not be respected. I'm just saying I was surprised how meager (to US eyes) the rights of a peer are, compared to the size I assumed they were.
 
^^^

Hereditary Peers still have a very important role, namely to sit in the House of Lords (diminished but not eliminated by the House of Lords Act 1999)

92 hereditary peers still sit in the Lords

This does not apply to royal peers however. In 1999 life peerages were offered to members of the royal family with new hereditary peerages, but this offer was declined
 
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Yes as William will be His Royal Highness The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge

When Charles succeeds, won't William also become Duke of Edinburgh?
(Provided Phillip is no longer living, of course).
 
^^^ No because when Philip passes, the dukedom will go to Charles and then merge with the crown upon his succession
 
When Charles succeeds, won't William also become Duke of Edinburgh?
(Provided Phillip is no longer living, of course).

No - because Edinburgh will have merged with the Crown and be available to be regranted - presumably to Edward as was announced when Edward married.

As far as George's titles go he will probably follow the precedent of Edward VIII (other than abdicating of course - although he may do that but that is in the future anyway and other than starting life as HH and not HRH as Edward did as the male line great-grandson of the monarch).

As such he will go:

HRH Prince George of Cambridge
HRH Prince George of Cornwall and Cambridge
HRH Prince George of Wales
HRH The Duke of Cornwall, (in Scotland HRH The Prince George, Duke of Rothesay etc)
HRH The Prince of Wales
HM The King

Remember that the Cornwall and Rothesay titles are automatic while the Wales title has to be created each time
 
Won't William also become the PoW along with the ducal titles?


LaRae
 
Not automatically. He has to be appointed/made prince of wales. He automatically becomes Duke of Cornwall when his father becomes king. Charles was 3 when his mother became queen, and was made Duke of Cornwall. It wasn't until he was 10 that he was created prince of wales.

Cornwall is only automatic to the eldest son of the monarch though. So if William died when his father was king, George would never be Duke of Cornwall. It can also not be inherited by a woman, though we will see if that changes with the new succession laws. If Charles dies before his mother, it would merge with the crown. It can pass to a younger brother, but only if the heir has no children. So if Charles became king before William got married, and William had died, Harry would automatically have become Duke of Cornwall.
 
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Won't William also become the PoW along with the ducal titles?


LaRae

William will have to be created Prince of Wales. It isn't an automatic title e.g. Charles became Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay the instant his mother became The Queen but he didn't become Prince of Wales for another 6 years - until 1958.

Thus his titles were:

HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh - November 1948 - February 1952
HRH The Duke of Cornwall (HRH The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay in Scotland) - February 1952 - 1958
HRH The Prince of Wales since 1958

The Ducal titles aren't used with the Prince of Wales title.

So we don't see him referred to as HRH The Prince of Wales, The Earl of Chester, The Duke of Cornwall, The Duke of Rothesay etc etc at one time.
 
Won't William also become the PoW along with the ducal titles?





LaRae


This is the way it'll work basically:

1. HM The Queen (QEII), HRH The Prince of Wales (Charles), HRH the Duke of Cambridge (William), and HRH Prince George of Cambridge
2. HM The King (Charles), HRH The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge (William), and HRH Prince George of Cornwall and Cambridge (when the Queen passes)
3. HM The King (Charles), HRH The Prince of Wales (William), and HRH Prince George of Wales (when William is created PoW)
4. HM The King (William), HRH The Duke of Cornwall (George) (Charles passes)
5. HM The King (William), HRH The Prince of Wales (George) (George is created PoW)
6. HM The King (George) (William passes)

If at some point, he's given a peerage of his own, then George will be HRH the Duke of Xxx until becoming Duke of Cornwall, at which point he'll be HRH The Duke of Cornwall and Xxx, and upon becoming PoW he'll cease to use his Ducal title (outside of Scotland).
 
Ah ok so there's no reason to think William won't be bestowed with the title of PoW though...it's just not an automatic title.


LaRae
 
Not automatically. He has to be appointed/made prince of wales. He automatically becomes Duke of Cornwall when his father becomes king. Charles was 3 when his mother became queen, and was made Duke of Cornwall. It wasn't until he was 10 that he was created prince of wales.

Cornwall is only automatic to the eldest son of the monarch though. So if William died when his father was king, George would never be Duke of Cornwall. It can also not be inherited by a woman, though we will see if that changes with the new succession laws. If Charles dies before his mother, it would merge with the crown. It can pass to a younger brother, but only if the heir has no children. So if Charles became king before William got married, and William had died, Harry would automatically have become Duke of Cornwall.


The Cornwall title isn't automatic for the monarch's eldest son. It automatic for the eldest son and heir apparent. You have to be both to be Duke of Cornwall. Say something happens to Charles today. Andrew would be the monarch's eldest son but William is the heir apparent. Neither one meets the criteria for the Cornwall Dukedom.




Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community
 
To give the most recent example of the heir apparent not being the Duke of Cornwall we have to go back to George III. His father, Frederick Prince of Wales, died leaving the young George as the heir apparent to his grandfather - George II. The young George inherited his father's title of Duke of Edinburgh and for a short time therefore was HRH The Duke of Edinburgh but his grandfather very quickly created him Prince of Wales so he was known by that title but he didn't have the Cornwall and Rothesay titles (same criteria there - heir apparent AND eldest son of the monarch in Scotland) but was able to be created Prince of Wales. When his own eldest son was born, as with the future Edward VII, he was born as Duke of Cornwall etc but within a very short period of time was created Prince of Wales. Charles actually had to wait the longest time as heir apparent before being created Prince of Wales - over 6 years - while earlier monarchs have done so very quickly with Edward VII being criticised by Queen Mary at least for making the future George V wait nearly 9 months to be created PoW and Earl of Chester.
 
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