Prince George's Title

[Mirabel]

Originally Posted by Rudolph

Yes as William will be His Royal Highness The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge

When Charles succeeds, won't William also become Duke of Edinburgh?
(Provided Phillip is no longer living, of course).

[Rudolph]

^^^ No because when Philip passes, the dukedom will go to Charles and then merge with the crown upon his succession

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Mirabel

When Charles succeeds, won't William also become Duke of Edinburgh?
(Provided Phillip is no longer living, of course).

No - because Edinburgh will have merged with the Crown and be available to be regranted - presumably to Edward as was announced when Edward married.

As far as George's titles go he will probably follow the precedent of Edward VIII (other than abdicating of course - although he may do that but that is in the future anyway and other than starting life as HH and not HRH as Edward did as the male line great-grandson of the monarch).

As such he will go:

HRH Prince George of Cambridge
HRH Prince George of Cornwall and Cambridge
HRH Prince George of Wales
HRH The Duke of Cornwall, (in Scotland HRH The Prince George, Duke of Rothesay etc)
HRH The Prince of Wales
HM The King

Remember that the Cornwall and Rothesay titles are automatic while the Wales title has to be created each time

[Pranter]

Won't William also become the PoW along with the ducal titles?


LaRae

[Countessmeout]

Not automatically. He has to be appointed/made prince of wales. He automatically becomes Duke of Cornwall when his father becomes king. Charles was 3 when his mother became queen, and was made Duke of Cornwall. It wasn't until he was 10 that he was created prince of wales.

Cornwall is only automatic to the eldest son of the monarch though. So if William died when his father was king, George would never be Duke of Cornwall. It can also not be inherited by a woman, though we will see if that changes with the new succession laws. If Charles dies before his mother, it would merge with the crown. It can pass to a younger brother, but only if the heir has no children. So if Charles became king before William got married, and William had died, Harry would automatically have become Duke of Cornwall.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Pranter

Won't William also become the PoW along with the ducal titles?


LaRae

William will have to be created Prince of Wales. It isn't an automatic title e.g. Charles became Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay the instant his mother became The Queen but he didn't become Prince of Wales for another 6 years - until 1958.

Thus his titles were:

HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh - November 1948 - February 1952
HRH The Duke of Cornwall (HRH The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay in Scotland) - February 1952 - 1958
HRH The Prince of Wales since 1958

The Ducal titles aren't used with the Prince of Wales title.

So we don't see him referred to as HRH The Prince of Wales, The Earl of Chester, The Duke of Cornwall, The Duke of Rothesay etc etc at one time.

[Ish]

Originally Posted by Pranter

Won't William also become the PoW along with the ducal titles?





LaRae

This is the way it'll work basically:

1. HM The Queen (QEII), HRH The Prince of Wales (Charles), HRH the Duke of Cambridge (William), and HRH Prince George of Cambridge
2. HM The King (Charles), HRH The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge (William), and HRH Prince George of Cornwall and Cambridge (when the Queen passes)
3. HM The King (Charles), HRH The Prince of Wales (William), and HRH Prince George of Wales (when William is created PoW)
4. HM The King (William), HRH The Duke of Cornwall (George) (Charles passes)
5. HM The King (William), HRH The Prince of Wales (George) (George is created PoW)
6. HM The King (George) (William passes)

If at some point, he's given a peerage of his own, then George will be HRH the Duke of Xxx until becoming Duke of Cornwall, at which point he'll be HRH The Duke of Cornwall and Xxx, and upon becoming PoW he'll cease to use his Ducal title (outside of Scotland).

[Pranter]

Ah ok so there's no reason to think William won't be bestowed with the title of PoW though...it's just not an automatic title.


LaRae

[Skippyboo]

Originally Posted by Countessmeout

Not automatically. He has to be appointed/made prince of wales. He automatically becomes Duke of Cornwall when his father becomes king. Charles was 3 when his mother became queen, and was made Duke of Cornwall. It wasn't until he was 10 that he was created prince of wales.

Cornwall is only automatic to the eldest son of the monarch though. So if William died when his father was king, George would never be Duke of Cornwall. It can also not be inherited by a woman, though we will see if that changes with the new succession laws. If Charles dies before his mother, it would merge with the crown. It can pass to a younger brother, but only if the heir has no children. So if Charles became king before William got married, and William had died, Harry would automatically have become Duke of Cornwall.

The Cornwall title isn't automatic for the monarch's eldest son. It automatic for the eldest son and heir apparent. You have to be both to be Duke of Cornwall. Say something happens to Charles today. Andrew would be the monarch's eldest son but William is the heir apparent. Neither one meets the criteria for the Cornwall Dukedom.




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[Iluvbertie]

To give the most recent example of the heir apparent not being the Duke of Cornwall we have to go back to George III. His father, Frederick Prince of Wales, died leaving the young George as the heir apparent to his grandfather - George II. The young George inherited his father's title of Duke of Edinburgh and for a short time therefore was HRH The Duke of Edinburgh but his grandfather very quickly created him Prince of Wales so he was known by that title but he didn't have the Cornwall and Rothesay titles (same criteria there - heir apparent AND eldest son of the monarch in Scotland) but was able to be created Prince of Wales. When his own eldest son was born, as with the future Edward VII, he was born as Duke of Cornwall etc but within a very short period of time was created Prince of Wales. Charles actually had to wait the longest time as heir apparent before being created Prince of Wales - over 6 years - while earlier monarchs have done so very quickly with Edward VII being criticised by Queen Mary at least for making the future George V wait nearly 9 months to be created PoW and Earl of Chester.

[Countessmeout]

Originally Posted by Skippyboo

The Cornwall title isn't automatic for the monarch's eldest son. It automatic for the eldest son and heir apparent. You have to be both to be Duke of Cornwall. Say something happens to Charles today. Andrew would be the monarch's eldest son but William is the heir apparent. Neither one meets the criteria for the Cornwall Dukedom.




Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community

If you read my post closely you see where I said that if Charles dies before his mother the title would merge with the crown. That Andrew would only inherit the title if Charles had no children/descendents.

[Dman]

Originally Posted by Pranter

Ah ok so there's no reason to think William won't be bestowed with the title of PoW though...it's just not an automatic title.


LaRae

Right, George won't be Prince George of Cornwall and Cambridge long, because Charles will appoint William as The Prince of Wales not too long after he come to the throne. George will be HRH Prince George of Wales for many years to come.

[Zonk]

Please note that discussion regarding the future of the Duke of Edinburgh title have been moved to http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...tles-7948.html.

Please note the following http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...tle-24343.html as well.

[Denville]

Originally Posted by ladongas

Besides, it would sound ridiculous to say, "The Earl of Strathearn enjoyed an afternoon in the park, toddling around the playground and digging in a sandbox. His nanny helped him climb the jungle gym." :)

? I don't see why that would sound ridiculous. Why? Is it more ridicoulous than sayng "PRince George was playing in his bouncy castle today."

Originally Posted by Curryong

I'm not sure that you can be 'de-princed' (or de-princessed) under the British system, Rudolph. I know that King George V did so in 1917 to some of his relatives when he removed their princely German titles and gave them (lesser) British ones. However, in modern times, with the exception of Princess/Lady Patsy Ramsay (who removed her royal title by her own wish) I know of no male or female born a prince or princess of the House of Windsor (or Hanover or Stuart etc for that matter) who have had that particular style of address removed from them.

No I agree Curryong. James and Louise, Ed's children are prince and princess by rank, but they are using a lesser title because the queen was trying to slim things down back then, just as Ed's wedding was a quieter affair and he was made an earl rather than a Duke.
wth regard to George V, I don't think that he could REMOVE his German relatives' princely titles, they were German, not British. It was simply with the War, it wasn't politic for them to be seen using German titles and he was alsos in his way trying to slim the RF down, so he gave them British titles of nobility, not royalty. And then in 1918, the German Empire ended and the German royal family was deposed.. so the "British German" contingent, such as the Battenbergs and Tecks & so on, were settled in the UK with their British titles

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

William will have to be created Prince of Wales. It isn't an automatic title e.g. Charles became Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay the instant his mother became The Queen but he didn't become Prince of Wales for another 6 years - until 1958.

Thus his titles were:

HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh - November 1948 - February 1952
HRH The Duke of Cornwall (HRH The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay in Scotland) - February 1952 - 1958
HRH The Prince of Wales since 1958

The Ducal titles aren't used with the Prince of Wales title.

So we don't see him referred to as HRH The Prince of Wales, The Earl of Chester, The Duke of Cornwall, The Duke of Rothesay etc etc at one time.

He and Camilla are still referred as Their Royal Highnesses The Duke and Duchess of Rothesay when in Scotland. Even on official memorials or plaquettes never the title Prince of Wales is used over there.

See: http://www.ballindallochdistillery.c...-CHARLES-6.jpg

See: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lql4IqFytx...600/EOJ801.jpg

See: http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/715...1lViF7xQ%3D%3D

See: http://i1.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming...e-during-2.jpg

[Iluvbertie]

The Ducal titles aren't used with the Prince of Wales title.

I assume that you did actually read my post but as you must have missed this I will spell it out for you in more simple terms.

The Ducal titles are Cornwall and Rothesay.

When they use the title Prince of Wales they don't also use the Ducal titles officially.

They use the Ducal titles when appropriate and even, when in Chester the Earl and Countess title but not all at once.

What we don't see is HRH The Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Earl of Chester, Duke of Rothesay etc in one reference - other than a full list of all of his titles.

One title only is used at a time and thus to restate what I said in my initial post The Ducal titles aren't used with the Prince of Wales title.

[Duc_et_Pair]

I only was reacting on post #26 in which you seem to end the use of the title Duke of Rothesay in 1958, when he became Prince of Wales. After re-reading post #26 it indeed still gives that impression. The titles Duke of Rothesay and Duke of Cornwall are indeed never used together with the title Prince of Wales.

[Princess Bobbi]

Hi All
First time posing.
Quick question about the Duke of Rothesay title. Is it the same as the Duke of Cornwall, in that it is only for the heir if he is also the oldest son?
Thanks

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Princess Bobbi

Hi All
First time posing.
Quick question about the Duke of Rothesay title. Is it the same as the Duke of Cornwall, in that it is only for the heir if he is also the oldest son?
Thanks

The Duke of Rothesay is the title of the Heir when in Scotland. It is equal to the Duke of Cornwall in the meaning that that title is for the Heir too. Both ducal titles are exclusively for the Sovereign's firstborn son.

That means that when Prince Charles deceases tomorrow, his son William can not automatically become Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay, when he becomes the Heir: William is not the firstborn son to Queen Elizabeth II.

[Curryong]

Hi, Princess Bobbi and welcome to the Forum! The title Duke of Rothesay is a Scottish title always held by the male heir to the British throne, (currently Prince Charles.) It's an old title, held by heirs to the Scottish throne before it became united with England.