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  #61  
Old 09-01-2021, 02:59 PM
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Hello, HRH Princess Cécile of Bourbon-Parma (1935) fourth child and third daughter of Duke François-Xavier (1889-1977) and of his wife née Madeleine de Bourbon- Busset (1898-1984) died at Paris on 1st September 2021.


https://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/parma.html
https://gothanjou.blog/2021/09/01/pr...let-1935-2021/




Thank you in advance,
Isabelle.
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  #62  
Old 09-01-2021, 03:46 PM
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RIP and only last year her younger sister Princess María Teresa of Bourbon-Parma died and another aunt of the duke of Parma has passed.
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  #63  
Old 09-02-2021, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


Both websites are mistaken about the daughters of his second marriage, I'm afraid. His daughters identify themselves with the family and surname of their mother, which information is found in many places, including their pages on social media.
Well, how they identify themselves doesn't mean that they are not Princesses Sapieha, genealogy wise I mean...Even in reigning monarchies, Lady Louise and Viscont Severn chose to identify themselves as Lord and Lady, but that doesn't mean that they are still not Prince/ss and HRH, even if not publicly used. In the order of precedence, they are treated as HRH, not as the son and daughter of an Earl.

I can change my name many times, but that doesn't change what I was born with and those websites obviously follow that...
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  #64  
Old 09-02-2021, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
RIP and only last year her younger sister Princess María Teresa of Bourbon-Parma died and another aunt of the duke of Parma has passed.
........ ...........

Her ashes were interred only last week at the Steccata,so sad.
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  #65  
Old 09-03-2021, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


Both websites are mistaken about the daughters of his second marriage, I'm afraid. His daughters identify themselves with the family and surname of their mother, which information is found in many places, including their pages on social media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Well, how they identify themselves doesn't mean that they are not Princesses Sapieha, genealogy wise I mean...Even in reigning monarchies, Lady Louise and Viscont Severn chose to identify themselves as Lord and Lady, but that doesn't mean that they are still not Prince/ss and HRH, even if not publicly used. In the order of precedence, they are treated as HRH, not as the son and daughter of an Earl.

I can change my name many times, but that doesn't change what I was born with and those websites obviously follow that...
Polish titles of nobility were abolished in 1921.

I have not read that they changed their names. Both were born in countries where it is legally possible for both parents to pass their names to their children at birth.
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  #66  
Old 09-03-2021, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Well, how they identify themselves doesn't mean that they are not Princesses Sapieha, genealogy wise I mean...Even in reigning monarchies, Lady Louise and Viscont Severn chose to identify themselves as Lord and Lady, but that doesn't mean that they are still not Prince/ss and HRH, even if not publicly used. In the order of precedence, they are treated as HRH, not as the son and daughter of an Earl.
I wouldn't say Lady Louise and Viscount Severn decided this but it was decided for them by their parents and the Queen
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  #67  
Old 09-04-2021, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
I wouldn't say Lady Louise and Viscount Severn decided this but it was decided for them by their parents and the Queen
I agree with you. :)
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  #68  
Old 09-04-2021, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Polish titles of nobility were abolished in 1921.

I have not read that they changed their names. Both were born in countries where it is legally possible for both parents to pass their names to their children at birth.
I know, but genealogy wise, it would be very weird to put Princess Paola de Bourbon Orleans Braganca as such in Sapieha family tree without pointing out that she is in fact a Sapieha, it would be misleading for those who are not farmiliar with the situation. It would look more like she is an agnatic member of Orleans de Bourbon family. Even if you know someone legally changed the name (here we don't know that), for genealogy sites that is not so important, but the fact that they are daughters of XX Prince and XX Princess and that their titles in pretension are xxx, as they belong to this and this Princely family.

As for Paola Maria, she is legally a Princess as her husband is officially a Prince in Belgium. And in Belgium, her title is legal. Imagine saying she could not be Princess Swiatopolk-Czetwertynska under the Belgian law, just because her social media presents her as Paola Maria de Bourbon Orleans Braganca.

That was my point.
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  #69  
Old 09-04-2021, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
I know, but genealogy wise, it would be very weird to put Princess Paola de Bourbon Orleans Braganca as such in Sapieha family tree without pointing out that she is in fact a Sapieha, it would be misleading for those who are not farmiliar with the situation. It would look more like she is an agnatic member of Orleans de Bourbon family.Even if you know someone legally changed the name (here we don't know that), for genealogy sites that is not so important, but the fact that they are daughters of XX Prince and XX Princess and that their titles in pretension are xxx, as they belong to this and this Princely family.
As both father and mother are identified, it is clear that she is (legally) an Orleans Bragança by descent from her mother. In any event, it is much more potentially misleading for a family tree to use only one of her names while forgetting the remainder of her legal name by which she is known in actuality.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
As for Paola Maria, she is legally a Princess as her husband is officially a Prince in Belgium. And in Belgium, her title is legal. Imagine saying she could not be Princess Swiatopolk-Czetwertynska under the Belgian law, just because her social media presents her as Paola Maria de Bourbon Orleans Braganca.

That was my point.
With respect, neither the family trees, which both use maiden names and titles for married women, nor the previous posts addressed names or titles borne by marriage.

But to address that point, last names and titles of nobility in Belgium are not legally carried by wives. While she may be addressed as a Princess Czetwertynski as a courtesy, she is technically still a commoner and technically still a Bourbon Orleans Bragança Sapieha.
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  #70  
Old 09-04-2021, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
While she may be addressed as a Princess Czetwertynski as a courtesy, she is technically still a commoner and technically still a Bourbon Orleans Bragança Sapieha.
I agree with you, but genealogy wise, it is easier for them just to list her as Princess Paola Maria Sapieha, as she is in pretension, than to list her as Princess Paola Maria Bourbon Orleans Bragança Sapieha, just based on her social media.

And if we follow spanish rules she would not be Paola Maria Bourbon Orleans Bragança Sapieha, but Paola Maria Sapieha y Orleans. Sapieha would be the first family name listed and not last.

I get the impression that she wanted to be known more like Orleans Bragança than Sapieha...but that's just my impression.
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  #71  
Old 09-04-2021, 09:45 AM
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I found this quote by Princess Paola in Vogue Arabia from 2013 - "My name is Paola Orléans e Bragança; that is not my full name, but that is how I refer to myself."
Nowadays many of us live where we're free to chose our own names and while those choices are to be respected it raises issues when it comes to royal and noble genealogy and titles. Paola might be legally entitled to use her mother's surname (I'm not familiar with Brazilian laws, but TM is usually very good at researching these matters) it still doesn't make her a member of the House of Orleans-Bragança. Her noble status comes through her father and not through her mother. For her to inherit her mother's status would require a decree from the head of the house and the Pétropolis' don't really seem to care much about these issues.
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  #72  
Old 09-04-2021, 11:40 AM
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She is official Paola Orléans e Bragança and this name is in her passport. So we can't make from her Princess Paola of Sapieha. Does any person write about Viscount Severn as Prince James of Wessex? No. Or Jonkheer Willem-Alexander van Amsberg about King of the Netherlands when he was a prince? No. There is also the House Law, which can determine the titles of family members. We don't know, did the head of house sign any Letters Patent. It's possible that after the divorce he agreed to add the girls to the House of Orleans-Braganca. They aren't t reigning family so they don't have to publish all family documents.
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  #73  
Old 09-04-2021, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I found this quote by Princess Paola in Vogue Arabia from 2013 - "My name is Paola Orléans e Bragança; that is not my full name, but that is how I refer to myself."
Nowadays many of us live where we're free to chose our own names and while those choices are to be respected it raises issues when it comes to royal and noble genealogy and titles. Paola might be legally entitled to use her mother's surname (I'm not familiar with Brazilian laws, but TM is usually very good at researching these matters) it still doesn't make her a member of the House of Orleans-Bragança. Her noble status comes through her father and not through her mother. For her to inherit her mother's status would require a decree from the head of the house and the Pétropolis' don't really seem to care much about these issues.
I totally share your opinion. That was my point also.
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  #74  
Old 09-04-2021, 01:52 PM
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She is official Paola Orléans e Bragança and this name is in her passport. So we can't make from her Princess Paola of Sapieha. Does any person write about Viscount Severn as Prince James of Wessex? No.
Of course, you don't write as his parents wanted him to be known like Viscount Severn, but in the order of precedence, James would be treated as HRH as he still automatically is, not as the son of an non-royal Earl.

In 2020, the Countess of Wessex stated that James still retains his royal title and style.

So, it's not like he isn't a Prince, he is just not referred to as Prince, but a Viscount with all his birth rights still in force.
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  #75  
Old 09-04-2021, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Daggy97 View Post
She is official Paola Orléans e Bragança and this name is in her passport. So we can't make from her Princess Paola of Sapieha. Does any person write about Viscount Severn as Prince James of Wessex? No. Or Jonkheer Willem-Alexander van Amsberg about King of the Netherlands when he was a prince? No. There is also the House Law, which can determine the titles of family members. We don't know, did the head of house sign any Letters Patent. It's possible that after the divorce he agreed to add the girls to the House of Orleans-Braganca. They aren't t reigning family so they don't have to publish all family documents.
Both sisters became Spanish citizens in 2005 under the surname "Sapieha de Bourbón" (sic). This information is public on the internet.
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  #76  
Old 09-05-2021, 10:25 AM
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Robin Harvey Combe, who died 28 August, 2021, aged 87, was a scion of that landed family and a grandson of the 4th Earl of Leicester, of Holkham Hall.

Mr Combe, a JP for Norfolk, lived sometime at the Manor House, Burnham Thorpe, King's Lynn, Norfolk, and latterly at the Bayfield Hall estate, near Holt, Norfolk.

He was born 2 January, 1934, son of Capt Simon Harvey Combe, MC [1903-65] and his wife the former Lady Silvia Beatrice Coke [1909-2005], daughter of the 4th Earl of Leicester [1880-1949], and his wife the former Marion Gertrude Trefusis [1882-1955], scion of the Barons Clinton.

He married 21 January, 1960, Olga Wise, daughter of R.J. Wise, by whom he had issue, two sons, Roger and Simon, and two daughters, Carey and Silvia.

Sources: Peerage News.
https://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/coke.html
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  #77  
Old 09-08-2021, 04:40 PM
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Count Jan Benadotte (1941-2021), died on 01 September, 2021:

https://eurohistoryjournal.blogspot....1941-2021.html
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  #78  
Old 09-09-2021, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Count Jan Benadotte (1941-2021), died on 01 September, 2021:

https://eurohistoryjournal.blogspot....1941-2021.html
And left four children and six grandchildren.

Count Philipp Karl Franz Johann Ignatius von Meran died on 2 April.

He was born in Csákberényi on 11 December 1926 as fourth of six children of Count Philipp von Meran (1894-1950) & his wife Countess Marie-Anna von und zu Eltz genannt Faust von Stromberg (1900-1994).
He was unmarried and childless.
Only siblings who survive him are the younger ones: twins Maximilian and Eleonore (b.20 April 1930) as well as twelve nieces and nephews and their families.

Sources: https://www.angelfire.com/realm/goth...a/austria.html
Descendants of Archduke Johann of Austria
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  #79  
Old 09-10-2021, 01:39 PM
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Sir Timothy Colman, KG, who died at his Norfolk home on 9 September aged 91, was a member of the Colmans mustard family, a Knight of the Garter, and a cousin [by marriage] of the Queen.

Timothy James Alan Colman was born on 19 September 1929 as a son of the cricketer Geoffrey Russell Rees Colman (1892-1935) & his wife Lettice Elizabeth Evelyn Adeane, scion of that landed gentry family.

He was educated at the Royal Naval College, Dartmouth, and joined the Royal Navy, leaving as a lieutenant in 1953, before commencing a business career. He subsequently joined the Castaways' Club. Colman was chairman of the Eastern Counties Newspaper Group from 1969 to 1996. He was appointed a Knight Companion of the Most Noble Order of the Garter in 1996.

Colman was a yachtsman, and claimed the record for the world's fastest yacht at 26.3 knots with Crossbow, a proa outrigger, at the inception of the World Sailing Speed Record Council in 1972. He increased the record to 31.2 knots three years later, and then in 1980 his catamaran Crossbow II extended the record to 36 knots.It held the record for six years until being beaten by the sailboard of Pascal Maka of France. Colman was a member of the Royal Yacht Squadron.

He married on 10 November 1951 Mary Cecilia Bowes-Lyon (b. 30 January 1932) a first cousin of Her Majesty the Queen, elder of twin daughters of Captain the Honourable Michael Claude Hamilton Bowes-Lyon (1893-1953) who was an elder brother of Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother, & his wife Elizabeth Margaret Cator (1899-1959), scion of that Norfolk landed gentry family. His wife, Mary, an extra lady in waiting to Princess Alexandra, was raised to the rank of an earl's daughter, in 1974, two years after the succession to the earldom of Strathmore and Kinghorne, of her brother, Fergus.

Lady Mary Colman died on 2 January 2021 at the Colman family home at Bixley Manor.

Sir Timothy's death leaves five vacancies among the Knights Companion of the Order of the Garter, following the deaths of Lord Carrington, Field Marshal Lord Bramall, Lord Ashburton, and Sir Antony Acland [who predeceased him by one day]. No new knights were appointed during the Covid crisis, but it is expected that Her Majesty will make further appointments in her 2022 jubilee year bringing the number to full capacity of 24.

Sir Timothy leaves issue: three daughters - Sarah (b.1953, Mrs. Peter Troughton), Sabrina (b.1955, Mrs. Christopher Penn) and Emma (b.1958, former Mrs. Richard Ramsbotham), two sons James (b.1962, married to Sacha Cotterell) and Matthew (b.1966, married to Jane Johnston) as well as ten grandchildren and fourteen great-grandchildren.
The eldest daughter, Sarah Troughton, is Lord Lieutenant of Wiltshire.

Sources: https://peeragenews.blogspot.com/202...n-kg-1929.html
Descendants of Sir Claude George Bowes-Lyon, 14th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne
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  #80  
Old 09-12-2021, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
I agree with you. :)
I heard in an interview on TV given by the Countess of Wessex, that when Lady Louise and Viscount Severn reached 18 year old they could decide whether to take up the use of the HRH Princess Louise, and HRH Prince James. However, she thought that Lady Louise, who was nearing her 18th birthday at the time of the interview, would be unlikely to request this.
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