Serbia: The House of Obrenovic

[milosmilanovcanin]

Yes, you are right, Mr. DWC. The Royal Council, appointed by the members of the family Obrenovic and prominent citizens, decided to H.R.H. Prince Predrag R. Jakovljevic de Obrenovic unanimously placed for first Head of the Royal House of Obrenovic and thus confirming his rights that belong to him legally. This decision was accepted with the approval of many citizens of Serbia, among others, a certain number of Royal and Princely houses of Europe and the world, because they were familiar with the decision for the appointment of a successor shortly before the assassination of King Aleksandar I Obrenovic.

Article of the Constitution pertaining to the heirs to the throne, from 1901, was automatically null and void just for the reason that it was known that the King Aleksandar does not have his male descendants. Illegal coming to power of the dynasty Karadjordjevic, where it is not allowed yet the Constitution of 1869. (Article 10), was accelerated only by reason that would prevent the arrival of the legitimate successor to the throne with deliberately devising imaginary obstacles.

[Marc23]

So, according to the 1901 constitution this man could today press his claims to the Serbian throne:

Tallián Tibor - Oktatók - Liszt Ferenc Zeneművészeti Egyetem

He is Baron Tibor Béla Miklos Tallián de Vizek, born in 1946 in Salzburg.

He is great-great-great-great grandson of Prince Milosh Obrenovic:


Prince Milosh Obrenovic, lived from 1780-1860
I
Princess Petrija Obrenovic, lived from 1808-1870
I
Atanasije Bajic de Varadia, lived from 1828-1876
I
Maria Bajic de Varadia, lived from 1864-1932
I
Baron Jenő Tallián de Vizek, lived from 1894-1926
I
Baron Tibor Jenő Tallián de Vizek, born in 1920
I
Baron Tibor Béla Miklós Tallián de Vizek, born in 1946


I think that there are more people who could today claim the rights to the throne based on their legitimate ancestry of Prince Milosh Obrenovic.

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by milosmilanovcanin

Article of the Constitution pertaining to the heirs to the throne, from 1901, was automatically null and void just for the reason that it was known that the King Aleksandar does not have his male descendants.

Yes, but you did not mention that this article 6 from 1901 Serbia's constitution also says that if there are no male heirs, the claims pass to female line descendants of the ruling family and Prince Milosh's daughters had progeny.

Predrag Jakovljevic is only descendant of Prince Milos's maternal half-brother, so he can't be male-line heir as he is not a male-line descendant of the ruling family, nor was his family ever mentioned in any Serbian constitution regarding succession to the throne.

In 1903 there were a lot of people living who could put their claim to the throne based on their legitimate female ancestry from Prince Milosh Obrenovic.

[milosmilanovcanin]

Ah, yes. I do not forget that even this. A law heritage throne decide descendants of the Royal House of Obrenovic together with the people of Serbia. Because of that, all insinuations as well as the foreign interference are not authoritative for this Royal House.

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by milosmilanovcanin

Ah, yes. I do not forget that even this. A law heritage throne decide descendants of the Royal House of Obrenovic together with the people of Serbia. Because of that, all insinuations as well as the foreign interference are not authoritative for this Royal House.

What is here foreign interference???

[DWC]

Thanks for the info Marc. Looking at it I would question if descent from the father of Prince Milos is important or not, as the name of the Royal House, Obrenovic, was the family name of Prince Milos elder half brothers and the name which he adopted in place of his own name Todorovic. So would they not all be classed as belonging to the Obrenovic dynasty if Prince Milos’s full brothers did.

I think from reading the 1901 constitution it could perhaps be argued the elder half brothers descendants are “collateral members of the dynasty”, as at the time of the constitution King Alexander had no siblings or cousins, so who was the collateral line if not those of the elder half brothers as these I think would only ones be classed as male members of the dynasty being male line descendants of the half brothers of Prince Milos.

I’m also sure I’ve read before Queen Natalie named the Jakovljevic’s as heirs in her will.

[Marc23]

Yes, they are one of the heirs to her will.

Jakovljevic family can't be collateral branch since they are not the same male line as the ruling family...

If King Alexander says specifically "male line descendants" , that literally means same male line descendants...male line descendants as he is, his father Milan was and every other Obrenovic ruler was.

All Obrenovic rulers and ruling family members were descendants of one father.

Considering family name, Milos has very smartly done that.

During Serbia's uprising wars his maternal half-brother Milan Obrenovic was very well respected as a soldier. Because of that he got as a reward from Karadjordje(who was at that time ruler of Serbia), the right to be governor in one of Serbian areas.

When his half-brother Milan died in 1810, Milos, who often fought alongside Milan, took his family name as his own so that he can, based on that, put his claim to govern the area his half-brother was governing before himself, despite the fact that deceased Milan had older full brother Jakov and a son who was very much alive,but later died in Russia.

Originally Posted by DWC

Thanks for the info Marc. Looking at it I would question if descent from the father of Prince Milos is important or not, as the name of the Royal House, Obrenovic, was the family name of Prince Milos elder half brothers and the name which he adopted in place of his own name Todorovic. So would they not all be classed as belonging to the Obrenovic dynasty if Prince Milos’s full brothers did.

In 1901 when the last constitution was made descendants of Milosh's half-brother were already Jakovljevic family.

So, if the last King wanted to include them he would say all male line descendants of the body of Visnja Obrenovic(Milosh's and Jakov's mother), not just all male line descendants of the Obrenovic dynasty.

They officially changed their surname in 1851, which was 50 years before the last constitution during King Alexander Obrenovic's reign. In 1901 they were already two different families with two different surnames who don't share male-line descent, but were related.

So in 1901 they were already Jakovljevic family for 50 years and would be mentioned as Jakovljevic family in Serbia's constitution, if someone wanted to include them, just as Queen Natalia specifically included them in her testament.

[milosmilanovcanin]

Originally Posted by DWC

Thanks for the info Marc. Looking at it I would question if descent from the father of Prince Milos is important or not, as the name of the Royal House, Obrenovic, was the family name of Prince Milos elder half brothers and the name which he adopted in place of his own name Todorovic. So would they not all be classed as belonging to the Obrenovic dynasty if Prince Milos’s full brothers did.

I think from reading the 1901 constitution it could perhaps be argued the elder half brothers descendants are “collateral members of the dynasty”, as at the time of the constitution King Alexander had no siblings or cousins, so who was the collateral line if not those of the elder half brothers as these I think would only ones be classed as male members of the dynasty being male line descendants of the half brothers of Prince Milos.

I’m also sure I’ve read before Queen Natalie named the Jakovljevic’s as heirs in her will.

Exactly, as you said DWC. The basis of the surname of the dynasty Obrenovic was taken from the Lord Jakov Obrenovic, as the oldest with that surname. These false statements, that the heirs of the dynasty of rulers only descendants in the male line absolutely not true. Way of coming to power did not have its own rules. When it comes to Obrenovic dynasty, they came to the throne of Serbia with selection (Prince Milos and Prince Mihailo), transferring the rights of succession (Prince then King Milan) and succession (Prince Milan I and King Aleksandar).

You see that you were easily to immediately conclude that the descendants of Jakov Obrenovic the rightful successor of all the rights that belonged to the rulers of the dynasty.

No matter what the descendants of Jacob Obrenovic later changed his surname to Jakovljevic, It certainly does not take away their hereditary line that they carry with them. So look logical, would the Queen Natalija them randomly picked as successors. Of course not, because it is very well aware of their origin, considering that the assets of the dynasty Obrenovic best to remain in the hands of those who are legal heirs of the royal family. One small part bequeathed to the descendants of which originates Tomanija Bogicevic. She was the wife of the Jevrem Obrenovic (the youngest brother of Prince Milos).

The fact that the descendants of Jakov Obrenovic changed their surname in Jakovljevic 1851. it`s also not correct. This can be verified in the cemetery where they were buried the first members of the family Obrenovic, because on tombstones surname Obrenovic appears much later than 1851.

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by milosmilanovcanin

Exactly, as you said DWC. The basis of the surname of the dynasty Obrenovic was taken from the Lord Jakov Obrenovic, as the oldest with that surname. These false statements, that the heirs of the dynasty of rulers only descendants in the male line absolutely not true. Way of coming to power did not have its own rules. When it comes to Obrenovic dynasty, they came to the throne of Serbia with selection (Prince Milos and Prince Mihailo), transferring the rights of succession (Prince then King Milan) and succession (Prince Milan I and King Aleksandar).

The election was based on male-line descendance and Jakovljevic family members are not male-line descendants...that's a fact!

Based on that they are not Princes, especially not H.R.H.

For being H.R.H you have to descend from the King, for being a Prince you have to descend from the ruling Princes and Jakovljevic family hasn't descended from either King or Prince.

So, if you do not descend from a King or a Prince, for having title of Prince you should be proclaimed Prince first...but even that never happened, so...

A cousin of the ruling family-YES, heir to Queen Natalia's testament-YES, but a Prince- NO and H.R.H.- NO!

Even Milan Obrenovic didn't have a title before being proclaimed Prince and then King.

Originally Posted by milosmilanovcanin

You see that you were easily to immediately conclude that the descendants of Jakov Obrenovic the rightful successor of all the rights that belonged to the rulers of the dynasty.

Both 1869 and 1901 Serbia's constitutions say "male-line descendants" and Jakovljevic family are not male line descendants.

What bothers me are fake titles...

Before his succession to the throne, even Milan Obrenovic was never a Prince. And he was male line descendant, unlike Predrag, who isn't.

And concerning Predrag, I do think that there are few other Jakovljevic male line descendants who belong to an elder line and would have more rights for the claim than he has...Zoran, Slobodan, Aleksandar...

I bought several books about Obrenovic family. The author was Mr. Slobodan Jakovljevic, but, unlike some wanna be royals, this guy, apart from kinsman-ship, never claimed that he is H.R.H the Prince.

[milosmilanovcanin]

The only thing you can do is laugh, nothing else to do.

The fact is that in Serbia exist the Royal House of Obrenovic and of course H.R.H. Prince Predrag Jakovljevic de Obrenovic as its first Head and the hereditary Prince, which is, remind, elected by the decision of their relatives to this place. The concerned persistently tries to deny what is already the facts, but reason is just the reopening of the Royal House of Obrenovic on serbian ground. This event has fundamentally shaken the supporters of the dynasty Karadjordjevic that in every way trying to deny its existence.


Do not forget that the Prince Djordje Karadjordjevic (son of the late Prince Tomislav Karadjordjevic) during a meeting with Prince Predrag accepted the fact that the Royal House of Obrenovic reality, which can no longer be amended.

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by milosmilanovcanin

The fact is that in Serbia exist the Royal House of Obrenovic and of course H.R.H. Prince Predrag Jakovljevic de Obrenovic as its first Head and the hereditary Prince

Who gave him the title?

During the reign of Obrenovic family, Jakovljevic family didn't have any titles.

Even descendants of Jevrem Obrenovic, full brother of Prince Milosh didn't held any titles prior to Serbia invited them to be rulers, despite being male line collateral branch of the family.

How can a female line relative of the family have titles if a male line relatives didn't have any titles during the reign of Milos,Milan and Michail???

[milosmilanovcanin]

This is exactly what you do not know. Not all documents were available to public and history. Something has existed within the family which are still preserved. This is enough to be able to say.
The descendants of Jacob Obrenovic after vile assassination of King Aleksandar Obrenovic become his legal successor in every sense.

[Marc23]

Ahhh, that's the catch.

A document which is not available to public and history.

Thnx, it was enough to say.

[MAfan]

The thread has been cleaned up.

First of all - and as a general rule of behaviour - I would like to remind to the participants to this discussion to treat each other with the due education and respect.

With regards to the prosecution of this discussion, I also would like to remind that claims and opinions should be based on factual informations, which should be backed up by references to the sources of them.
This is, clearly, the only way to allow the evaluation of the seriousness of any claim.
While such informations and sources have been provided to refute the Jakovljevic claims, on the contrary not any of them has been provided in support of them.
Unless they are provided, it will not be possible to appreciate the relative claims.

Thanks for your understanding.

MAfan
Serbian Forum Moderator

[Marc23]

Thank you for this answer.

Don't have anything against Jakovljevic family...they should get what they are left in Queen Natalia's testament, as it is a document that provides how someone wanted to distribute his/her private fortune.

But, to call yourself a HRH Prince, thus not descending from any Prince or King and without any document or written proof about your title, is just too much to argue about.

[MichelleAnderson]

I have two questions I cannot find answers to. I am not Serbian, nor do I know any Serbians, so if the answers are in that language, I can't get anyone to translate them.

Would someone be so kind as to answer two questions for me?

1. How did Miloš Obrenović die? I was thinking natural causes, bit he was a bit on the young side, and I remember reading somewhere (whether true or false) that Prince Milan II was the only Serbian monarch to die of natural causes...

2. I can find very little about Prince Milan II and read in Wikipedia or Britannica that he "never regained consciousness" and probably didn't ever know he was the Prince of Serbia. Was he in a coma before he ascended to the throne? Was it tuberculosis?

Thank anyone who can help.

-- Michelle

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by MichelleAnderson

I have two questions I cannot find answers to. I am not Serbian, nor do I know any Serbians, so if the answers are in that language, I can't get anyone to translate them.

Would someone be so kind as to answer two questions for me?

1. How did Miloš Obrenović die? I was thinking natural causes, bit he was a bit on the young side, and I remember reading somewhere (whether true or false) that Prince Milan II was the only Serbian monarch to die of natural causes...

2. I can find very little about Prince Milan II and read in Wikipedia or Britannica that he "never regained consciousness" and probably didn't ever know he was the Prince of Serbia. Was he in a coma before he ascended to the throne? Was it tuberculosis?

Thank anyone who can help.

-- Michelle

Prince Milosh died of natural causes. He was already 80 when he died which was considered old at that time.

His son, Prince Milan was already bed ridden due to tuberculosis when he ascended to the throne. At first, he was conscious, but as he never signed any official document in 26 days of his rule, it is not clear whether he knew that he was an actual ruler. During his reign, Serbia was ruled by 3 regents and there are rumors that they told him that his father went for a trip, so that's why we don't know did he knew that he was an actual ruler or still the son of a ruler who went abroad.

Except Milan and Milosh, there was also Prince Alexander Karadjordjevic (Ruling Prince from 1842-1858), father of King Peter I, who died of natural causes in 1885, although already in exile. King Milan of Serbia, father of King Alexander, also died of natural causes (pneumonia) in exile. King Peter I of Serbia also died of natural causes. He was 75 at that time.

[theroyalfly]

Today in Royal History is the 143rd birthday of Alexander I of Serbia of the House of Obrenović. He married the widowed Madame Draga Mašin, formerly a lady-in-waiting to his mother and 12 years his senior. Following the May Coup (Serbia), they were murdered and their bodies mutilated and disemboweled. He was 26 years old when he died.

[Countessmeout]

Originally Posted by theroyalfly

Today in Royal History is the 143rd birthday of Alexander I of Serbia of the House of Obrenović. He married the widowed Madame Draga Mašin, formerly a lady-in-waiting to his mother and 12 years his senior. Following the May Coup (Serbia), they were murdered and their bodies mutilated and disemboweled. He was 26 years old when he died.

Yeah and then thrown out a second story window onto a manure pile.

It could have been avoided if Alexander had continued with the agreed plan that Prince Mirko of Montenegro would succeed him to the throne if he had no children. Mirko's wife was a great-granddaughter of Princess Anka of Serbia. He instead proclaimed his wife's brother as his heir.

Instead of Mirko, Mirko's brother in law Peter was chosen King after the coup.

One of those stories of what ifs. Even what if he had not married Draga but married the woman his father had been in negotiations to marry him to. Had he married Princess Alexandra of Schaumberg-Lippe would he have lived to reign for years?

They were assassinated by members of the Black Hand, the same organization that would later assassinate Franz Ferdinand.

[theroyalfly]

Originally Posted by Countessmeout

Yeah and then thrown out a second story window onto a manure pile.

It could have been avoided if Alexander had continued with the agreed plan that Prince Mirko of Montenegro would succeed him to the throne if he had no children. Mirko's wife was a great-granddaughter of Princess Anka of Serbia. He instead proclaimed his wife's brother as his heir.

Instead of Mirko, Mirko's brother in law Peter was chosen King after the coup.

One of those stories of what ifs. Even what if he had not married Draga but married the woman his father had been in negotiations to marry him to. Had he married Princess Alexandra of Schaumberg-Lippe would he have lived to reign for years?

They were assassinated by members of the Black Hand, the same organization that would later assassinate Franz Ferdinand.

Indeed, if Alexander was just a loving and doting son to his parents, this would not have happened.

Milan, his father, was brought back to Serbia by Alexander and was appointed commander-in-chief of the Serbian army in 1898. Two years later, Alexander announed his engagement to Draga and did not consult this to his father who at that time was trying to secure the hand of German Princess Alexandra zu Schaumburg-Lippe for Alexander.

Milan resigned short after as with the Prime Minster and Alexander had difficulty in forming a new cabinet. Queen Nathalie opposed of this union and was banished from the court.

Even at a young, he was already very bold and serious, it is to note that at 16, he proclaimed himself of full age and dismissed the regents and their governments.

Draga was also very unpopular, aside from her past, she couldn't bear a child and the rumors of Alexander choosing Draga's brother as heir-presumptive instead of Prince Mirko of Montenegro was distasteful.

Yes, it would have turned out differently had Alexander married Alexandra and with the continued support from his mother and father.