Succession to the Romanian Throne, Part 1

[JR76]

Originally Posted by CSENYC

It shouldn't be the Royal Family's decision about who the successors to the throne should be (unless a specific person decides to withdraw from the succession); it should be the decision of the people of Romania.

If the people of Romania want a monarchy, then let them pick who they want as king or queen, and how the succession should work. That's how plenty of other monarchies work; even though the King in most monarchies that I'm familiar with isn't elected by popular vote, the people adopt a Constitution or other laws that specify how the King is picked, and so even a monarchy is thus democratic.

I would happily pick King Michael as head of state. The rest of the family? Some of them seem like fine people (e.g., Princess Margarita), but some of them don't.

Further, weren't German/Nordic kings picked for Romania, Bulgaria and Greece because they were viewed as highly capable rulers? Would the Royal Family of Romania (other than King Michael) be viewed as such? If not, why not just start with a new Royal Family--a family whose members have distinguished themselves in business and otherwise improving the world, for example.

The German and Danish kings was picked because they 1. were outsiders that wasn't embroiled with the infighting among the local noble families that had been ongoing for centuries 2. had the backing of the European powers that guaranteed the countries independence from the Ottoman Empire.
In Serbia where local warlords placed themselves on the throne the situation sometimes bordered on civil war and culminated in the barbaric murder of King Alexander and Queen Draga in 1903.


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[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by CSENYC

Duc et Pair, that makes sense. Or even pick a member of the British Royal Family- at least they're wealthy and well-connected celebrities. Princess Margarita seems like a very fine (and attractive person), but apart from her and King Michael, the rest of this royal family seems to be like the Clintons but without the business and political success. (That's not a compliment.)

That last one (picking the BRF) makes no sense. The Hohenzollerns from Sigmaringen are in the line of succession on base of the very document on which the whole existence of Michael as King rests: the Constitution of the Kingdom of Romania he solemnly pledged to maintain and to protect... They are also in line of succession on base of the fundamental House Laws which were shoved aside by King Michael, for his own carroussel, his hop-on, hop-off line-of-succession...

[CSENYC]

Shouldn't the choice of which Royal Family the country should have be a choice made by the Romanian people?

Perhaps they'd choose the Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen family in Germany, but perhaps not. That family may have historical claims to the throne, and they seem capable, but have most Romanians even heard of them?

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by CSENYC

Shouldn't the choice of which Royal Family the country should have be a choice made by the Romanian people?

Perhaps they'd choose the Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen family in Germany, but perhaps not. That family may have historical claims to the throne, and they seem capable, but have most Romanians even heard of them?

In principle the old Royal House from the pre-communist era wants to return c.q. seeks recognition for the illegal acts which made an end to the democratic constitution under the constitutional King from the House of Hohenzollern.

In the meantime the post-communist state of Romania has recognized that illegal acts and damages were done to the former King. So he receives an allowance and an arrangement for former heads of state, some royal properties have been returned and Michael von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen as well his eldest daughter Margareta von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen have a semi-formal role.

You make to seem that the Romanians should choose who and what. But that is not the framework in which things are evoluing here. It is about the lawful head of state, delivered by by hereditary succession within the House of Hohenzollern seeking justice, recognition and a role in society. After the fall of Ceaucescu mainly former communist apparatshiks have seized power and lead Romania into a certain direction. Romania became ruled by former communists suddenly turned democrats but who have made career under Ceaucescu anyway. That is not so strange, the country had to go on. The public services, the armed forces, the economy, it had to go on and yes, former communists turned democrat had to keep Romania going on. In this vacuum some grabbed the opportunity and seized power and the reins of state.

The last democratic Constitution and it's royal system were convienently overlooked. Everything which happens must be seen in this legal, constitutional and historical framework. It is not about: eeeeerrrmmmm, who shall we let the Romanians choose? It is a about legal and historical positions by the House of Hohenzollern under a lawful Constitution which was illegally toppled. On his turn, King Michael has violated the very same rules on which his whole existence as lawful former head of state rests. Had he respected this document, then we would not have had this whole vaudeville. Then the current Fürst von Hohenzollern and his son were his uncontested heirs and representing the historic rights as well the historic dynasty.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by eya

I wonder if Nicolae was not able for the future role, of the young Alexander Hohenzollern who is about the same age as Nicolae and I imagine that there has ever visited the country and has a another life IS?

The number one in the line of succession according to the Constitution of (the Kingdom of) Romania is Karl Friedrich Fürst von Hohenzollern. He is a graduate in business administration from the prestigious École supérieure de cadre pour l'économie et l'administration in Fribourg (Switzerland). After completing this study the current Fürst took apprenticeships in financial management in Stuttgart, Frankfurt/Main and New York before enrolling in the family businesses.

The businesses of the Fürst have an annual turnover of 600 million Euro and he employs 3.200 people directly. His son Alexander Erbprinz von Hohenzollern has followed his father's footsteps and studies Internationale Wirtschaftswissenschaft (Science of International Economics). According the article below the Fürst has asked his three daughters as well but none of them have a talent for business. According the article it is needed that the Hohenzollern businesses are properly managed and make a good profit because -unlike "normal businesses"- the revenues are of course used to maintain the enormous historic patrimonium of the House.

I have the idea that the Fürst and his son have never had a real prospect in Romania and since King Michael has bypassed them by placing his daughters in the line of succession, "Romania" maybe has become a closed chapter to them. It looks natural to me that since then Karl Friedrich and his son Alexander have totally focussed on the challenges in the own House and lost interest in Romania.

Unternehmensgruppe Hohenzollern: Ein fürstlicher Gemischtwarenladen - DIE WELT

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by eya

[...] (and why have with all the businesses?) [...]

Heu... to make a living? To earn an income? To put food on the table?

The bulk of the businesses owned by the Fürst von Hohenzollern are centuries old (Zollern Company, for an example). So the business activities are as much part of the family heritage as the rest (the domains, the castles, etc.).

[An Ard Ri]

Has the king a good relationship with his Hohenzollern relatives or has that one also turned sour?

[JR76]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

Has the king a good relationship with his Hohenzollern relatives or has that one also turned sour?

Wasn't there a fallout concerning the titles of Prince Radu and it was this that eventually lead to the severing of ties between the House of Hohenzollern and the newly created House of Romania?


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[CSENYC]

Duc et Pair, I agree with you (for your post #180). If I could choose how things worked, I'd restore a lot of things about pre-World War II kingdoms, and I would restore King Michael to his throne, I would give him back all of his powers and property, and I would erase the Communist era in Europe.

However, if I'm veering from that by stating that Romanians themselves (not their politicians) should pick their king and how the succession should work, it's not inconsistent with that. Never before (except perhaps under King Carol II, since he alone could modify his 1938 Constitution, which was authoritarian and not democratic) could a king pick his successor. That's not how a democracy operates, in Romania or elsewhere. Queen Elizabeth III can't pick her successor; nor can any European monarch that I know of.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by eya

You don't understand me .Why have interested about Monarchy when many businesses have to deal ? That i'm saying.

That is a good question. At the same time one can say: why all the effort to maintain those enormous castles (Hohenzollern Castle, Sigmaringen Castle, Krauchenwies Castle) which bring astronomic costs with them? Why not simply sell these to an internatonal hotel chain to make luxe hotels with spa, golf resort et al?

I think the answer lies in noblesse oblige, in maintaining the patrimonium, the history, the dignity and the prestige of an almost 1000 years old royal dynasty. The monarchy in Romania is part of the history of the Hohenzollerns. Was the succession not changed by King Michael, God knows how succesful and well-managed the stuffy, oldfashioned, sleepy and bureaucratic Romanian domains could become in the hands of these experienced royal entrepreneurs, whom have proven to know how to make a good living with royal standards by running succesful enterprises?

At the same time the Fürst and his son, the Erbprinz, indeed maybe will say: "No thank you, we have an almost 1000-years old family business to run, we have no time for a hopeless Romanian operetta. It will only damage our businesses."

[Cory]

We can't presume the reaction of HH Prince Karl until the moment for Succession really arrives.

[Admiral Horthy]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

why all the effort to maintain those enormous castles (Hohenzollern Castle, Sigmaringen Castle, Krauchenwies Castle) which bring astronomic costs with them? Why not simply sell these to an internatonal hotel chain to make luxe hotels with spa, golf resort et al?

I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't generations of employees (retainers) who they feel a certain loyalty to, not to mention the local population.

[eya]

Agree. For this I find it hard to leave all this for a throne that does not exist. But on the other hand who knows what everyone thinks.

[wartenberg7]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

At the same time the Fürst and his son, the Erbprinz, indeed maybe will say: "No thank you, we have an almost 1000-years old family business to run, we have no time for a hopeless Romanian operetta. It will only damage our businesses."

That would indeed proof they´re not suited and unfit for a throne!

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by wartenberg7

That would indeed proof they´re not suited and unfit for a throne!

Why? Because they possibly make a strategic assessment of the situation and maybe conclude that Romania is, like Germany, a democratic society with an elected president and most likely never will return to a monarchy? Secondly, IF the Romanians return to the monarchy, will they then follow the michaelist line or the constitutional one and ask the Hohenzollerns?

Interesting... When the outcome of the named strategic assessment learns that there are no prospects for a restoration in Romania and therefore the focus should remain on the own Hohenzollern interests, then "that would indeed proof that they are not suited and unfit for a throne"????

Aha... but when the outcome of the same assessment would be to take "the Romanian project" serious and see it as a challenge, then suddenly the same Fürst and Erbprinz are suited and fit for a throne????

Really... your way of thinking needs acrobatic flik-flaks to find any logic...

[Cory]

The Hohenzollerns must see first they have supporters among the royalists in Romania (and they have) and than decide which Prince of their Line would accept to move to Romania and continue the Royal House oh Hohenzollern in the country. It is not compulsory Prince Karl or his son become the new Heads of the Royal House but they can give this opportunity for other Hohenzolern Prince of their Line.

[Cory]

There is a clear division among the royalists between those who are Legitimists and support the Hohenzollerns Succession and those who continue to support the female descendants of the King.

[Cory]

HH Prince Karl (Carol) of Hohenzollern and his son HSH Hereditary Prince Alexander, the future Successors to the Romanian Throne:

pre-SEEGER00206918.jpg Photo by Jan-Maarten2 | Photobucket

[USCtrojan]

Originally Posted by Cory

The Hohenzollerns must see first they have supporters among the royalists in Romania (and they have) and than decide which Prince of their Line would accept to move to Romania and continue the Royal House oh Hohenzollern in the country. It is not compulsory Prince Karl or his son become the new Heads of the Royal House but they can give this opportunity for other Hohenzolern Prince of their Line.

So sad! It's too bad that it all had to come down to this.

[Cory]

If the Hohenzollerns will accept the Succession we will have very good news.