Succession to the Romanian Throne, Part 1

[Cory]

At this moment any restoration of Monarchy is hardly possible. If the Romanian royalists want to remain loyal to the Constitution of 1923 they have to support the Hohenzollerns even if the Hohenzollerns are rather silent on their future involvement in Romania. If some of royalists want to support the proposal of 2007 they can't just take who they like from that proposed Line.
The Succession to the Royal dynastic rights of Romania is more complicated than ever.

[Gaudete]

You’re missing my point. Where is your evidence that Romanian royalists do want to remain loyal to the 1923 documents? Where’s any poll or organisation that clearly states that’s the general opinion of those who support the restoration of the monarchy in Romania? And you’re not answering the questions put to you, you’re simply repeating the same statements without offering anything to substantiate them.

How is what you’re suggesting: a) popular and desired, b) practical, c) a priority or d) achievable?

[Cory]

The word "if" help a lot sometimes. Only if we notice it.
There is I suppose a lot of confusion among many royalists about the Succession. Hardly to know how many know the Constituion of 1923 or how many understand the King could not changed by Himself the rules of Succession. The republican parliament won't certainly help the royalists to solve their doubts creating a sort of new institution or ngo and deciding the persons that would lead that institution. The competence of the republican parliament to decide dynastic rights is zero.
Let's hope after the funeral there will be a dialogue between the members of the King's Family and all the royalists Associations to see how they can work together for the country.
The Succession of the dynastic rights will remain a matter of debate for a long time probably.

[Gaudete]

With respect, I’ll have to bow out of the debate there. You can’t simply repeat claims again and again and insist that they’re correct without offering responses to questions other people ask or provide sources to back up the statements you make.

[Cory]

I suppose everybody has the right to have an opinion.Nobody has polls about the different royalists Associations in Romania even if we read The statements of the leaders of those associations. The constitution (republican or royalist) is not an opinion though.
What is achievable now?Certainly not the restoration.
The Succession?Depends how we see the document of 2007.

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by maria-olivia

Cory, you are back again. Where are your proofs?

Where they have always been. Nowhere.

It would be nice if this thread could, again, return to and focus on the issue at hand; 'succession to the Romanian throne'. We really should not have to re-visit every issue and opinion voiced 17 times before in the thread, that has been both debunked and questioned, without ever receiving an answer, other than by opinions pretending to be facts.

There is a Romanian Royal Family. Government recognizes it, media recognizes it, the Church recognizes it and most people do know who the King was, who Crown Princess Margareta and Prince Radu are, and have heard of the unfortunate events surrounding Nicholas. Like them or not, they're it, and the more those pretending to support the cause they're working for is trying to harm them, the less is achieved.

To repeatedly whinge about the House of Hohenzollern who once were in the succession to the Romanian throne, 85 years ago, and who have several times made it clear, both directly through a statement of Fürst Karl in 2008, and by their silence since, that their house is not a part of the future of the monarchy in Romania, and that Romania has a Royal Family representing the country, is pointless and arbitrary in a way that serves no purpose whatsoever.

To elevate some disgruntled bloggers or a monarchical advocates wish to return to a constitution long since abolished to avoid accepting the clear decision of Romanian official life, that the Royal Family is there to stay, even beyond the King, and with a clearly more visible presence, is folly and a waste of time.

Duc's point is well made: Even if you don't like the decisions made up until now and that are about to be made through law in Romania regarding the future of the dynasty, they are the facts. The Royal Family is the future, and they are the only place one can go with ones aspirations of a return to monarchy in Romania. Politicians have de facto acknowledged the succession wanted by the late King, by elevating CP Margareta and respecting her role as Custodian of the Crown.

If one doesn't believe in the return of the monarchy in Romania or in any positive developments that points to its future, I fail to see any reason to spam this thread dedicated to the issue of succession to its throne.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Listen, for me the Fürst and the Erbprinz von Hohenzollern are the rightful heirs. With the death of King Michael, Prince Karl Friedrich is his successor.

But my eyes do not lie. I see no Prince Karl Friedrich adressing the nation, I see no Prince Karl Friedrich in the Romanian Parliament. So we may say that the State of Romania has legitimized Princess Margareta, not only by all the formal proceedings but also when the proposed Bill is approved.

Then we can play the drum of "Karl Friedrich and Alexander should be there, not Margareta and Radu" but it is what it is. The public actions by Parliament have given the pretenders Margareta & Radu an advantage other pretenders miss.

Imagine that the President, the Government and the Parliament of Italy would act like this towards Aimone di Savoia-Aosta. We can say: "Ho, a moment: not Aimone but Emanuele Filiberto di Savoia is the heir!" but public acts and official symbolism can upset all and everything.

The attitude of the nowadays authorities is very clear on this issue.

[Cory]

The Succession is more important than ever now that some politicians would like a referendum to decide if the country returns to Monarchy:

https://m.antena3.ro/actualitate/romanii-ar-putea-fi-chemati-la-referendum-pentru-a-alege-intre-republica-sau-monarhie-447087.html

[Andy T]

There seems now to be a real possibility of a referendum on the monarchy.

I am convinced that the monarchist associations, with their vociferous campaign against the Royal House, have already given opponents all the ammunition they need to portray the family as divided and unfit to reign.
They have as good as ensured that this unique opportunity will be missed.

If Nicholas and the Royal House can reconcile to present a united front and this united front is supported unconditionally by all self-proclaimed supporters of a constitutional monarchy, a very slight glimmer of hope remains.

[Cory]

The monarchists were certainly not against the King's Family but about the project of some members of the Family to accept a compromise in favour of the republic.
If the attitutude of the same members of the Family towards Nicholas de Roumanie won't change the cause of Monarchy will suffer greatly.

[Gaudete]

If a referendum happens, there’s no doubt that it’ll be Margareta who is the focus. I doubt the referendum will see the monarchy restored but if it does, there’s no logical reason as to why anyone else would ever be considered now. At most, Margareta may reverse the 2015 decision taken by her father but if she doesn’t, who can blame her?

Quite honestly I think this is based in post-funeral emotion rather than any serious proposal. I can’t see that it’ll actually get through the Romanian Parliament let alone to the ballot box.

[Cory]

To win a referendum you need popular Princes in the Line of Succession.

Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills could be supported by many Romanians as a future King as some expert on polling say already:

https://psnews.ro/romania-monarhie-p...clusiv-199774/

[Gaudete]

Originally Posted by Cory

To win a referendum you need popular Princes in the Line of Succession.

If the referendum is being held as an X Factor style contest between individuals then they shouldn't bother holding it. Monarchy isn't about individuals. It's about the institution, what it represents, what benefits it can bring to Romania. Leaving Nicholas aside for this discussion (because I know nothing can dampen your devotion there), let's look at the actual process involved.

The Romanian Parliament will need to introduce a bill to hold the referendum. It'll need the backing of the Romanian government. If it gets through this stage (and I can't see it will given that it's currently an opposition-led proposal) then it will need to be scheduled and a ballot form agreed. I know that some would prefer to see:

Who would you like to be King?

X Margareta
X Nicholas

But that isn't going to happen. The question put to Romanians will be, "Do you want a monarchy or a republic?". There's absolutely no wiggle room for pathetic disputes and personal agendas. If monarchist groups really are monarchists, they'll accept that this (if it ever happens) will be their one chance to get what they want and if they lose it over some silly squabble then they can't have been all that committed to the principles of monarchy in the first place.

It's time to get off the dreamboat. Margareta is recognised by the Romanian Government (and soon to be parliament too) as the Head of the Royal House. If the Romanian Government agree with the Opposition and allow a referendum, it'll be between the current President and all that he represents in the Romanian Republic vs Margareta and all that she represents for a new chapter of Romanian monarchy. There's no room for anything - or anyone -else. Naturally of course, this will be overlooked as St Nicholas can do no wrong and is the saviour of all but pride has been known to come before a fall. If monarchists care more about one individual than they do about an institution that could benefit millions of ordinary Romanians, it's probably best if the Romanian monarchy isn't restored.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Cory

To win a referendum you need popular Princes in the Line of Succession.

Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills could be supported by many Romanians as a future King:

https://psnews.ro/romania-monarhie-p...clusiv-199774/

This is completely contradicting any monarchical logic.

What is a monarchy? That is a system in which the head of state is "delivered" by hereditary succession.

When you accept the authority of the late King Michael to arrange his succession, then his hereditary successors are:
1 - his eldest child, Princess Margareta
2 - his second eldest child, Princess Elena
3 - his eldest granddaughter, Elizabeth Medforth-Mills
With the same authority of the late King Michael to arrange his succession, he has thrown out his grandson Nicholas (and his daughter Irina, and his granddaughter Angelica, and his grandson Michael, must have been the late King's hobby: throwing relatives out).

Now you are advocating a monarchy, but wait a moment.... not the eldest child of the late King please. And wait another moment.... not the second eldest child of the late King please. And wait another moment again.... get that dude, Nicholas, back in the line of succession!

This has nothing to do with a monarchy. This is just: dial a number and vote for your favourite candidate at X-Factor Royal Romania ("and win an arrangement for two in a luxury resort in South Africa!").

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Gaudete

If the referendum is being held as an X Factor style contest between individuals then they shouldn't bother holding it. Monarchy isn't about individuals. It's about the institution, what it represents, what benefits it can bring to Romania. Leaving Nicholas aside for this discussion (because I know nothing can dampen your devotion there), let's look at the actual process involved.

The Romanian Parliament will need to introduce a bill to hold the referendum. It'll need the backing of the Romanian government. If it gets through this stage (and I can't see it will given that it's currently an opposition-led proposal) then it will need to be scheduled and a ballot form agreed. I know that some would prefer to see:

Who would you like to be King?

X Margareta
X Nicholas

But that isn't going to happen. The question put to Romanians will be, "Do you want a monarchy or a republic?". There's absolutely no wiggle room for pathetic disputes and personal agendas. If monarchist groups really are monarchists, they'll accept that this (if it ever happens) will be their one chance to get what they want and if they lose it over some silly squabble then they can't have been all that committed to the principles of monarchy in the first place.

It's time to get off the dreamboat. Margareta is recognised by the Romanian Government (and soon to be parliament too) as the Head of the Royal House. If the Romanian Government agree with the Opposition and allow a referendum, it'll be between the current President and all that he represents in the Romanian Republic vs Margareta and all that she represents for a new chapter of Romanian monarchy. There's no room for anything - or anyone -else. Naturally of course, this will be overlooked as St Nicholas can do no wrong and is the saviour of all but pride has been known to come before a fall. If monarchists care more about one individual than they do about an institution that could benefit millions of ordinary Romanians, it's probably best if the Romanian monarchy isn't restored.

In 1866 there was a referendum asking about the Monarchy under Prince Karl von Hohenzollern Siegmaringen. Now there could be something similar asking the Romanians if they want the Monarchy with the grandson of the King as future King. The other option would be a Monarchy under the Hohenzollerns.
In 1975 Monarchy was not restored with the Count of Barcelona who was the Head of the Royal Family but with his son Juan Carlos who was in the end accepted by the majority.

[Gaudete]

You can’t seriously compare 1866 and 2017.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Gaudete

You can’t seriously compare 1866 and 2017.

There are certainly many differences but you can't ask the Romanians to vote for Monarchy if they don't know who will be King.

[Gaudete]

The choice given will be prescribed by the Romanian Parliament. And there’s no reason why at this stage, that choice wouldn’t be Margareta. Anything else is fantasy.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Cory

[...]
In 1975 Monarchy was not restored with the Count of Barcelona who was the Head of the Royal Family but with his son Juan Carlos who was in the end accepted by the majority.

In 1975 the monarchy was not restored. There was a "sede vacante" under General Franco, who acted as Jefe del Estado during that period. In 1975 there was no Republic of Spain turning into a kingdom. It was "just" Don Juan Carlos de Borbón y Borbón who took the empty throne, ending the "sede vacante". The state structure did not change.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Gaudete

The choice given will be prescribed by the Romanian Parliament. And there’s no reason why at this stage, that choice wouldn’t be Margareta. Anything else is fantasy.

If you want to restore Monarchy you present or somebody who is the rightful Heir according to the last royalist Constitution- that would be HSH Prince Karl of Hohenzollern- or somebody that would be accepted by many Romanians -like Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills. You would never present a person contested by the monarchists themselves.