The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #421  
Old 03-05-2016, 03:13 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 13,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Wonderful article on Unione Monarchica Italiana - U.M.I. regarding the Romanian Succesion.
You mean this specific page, titled "the complicated succession". I will give a short summarization for our non latin-language-readers.
  #422  
Old 03-05-2016, 05:07 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 13,236
My summarization in English from ROMANIA: LA COMPLESSA SUCCESSIONE DEL RE MICHELE I

Romania, the compilicated succession of King Michael
In recent days many monarchists around the world are turning a thought or saying a prayer for King Michael of Romania, who -despite the weight of his 94 years and a worsening health - continues to be a symbol of the rebirth of his people. The King is one of the few still living heads-of-state from World War II (together with King Simeon II of Bulgaria). The hospitalization in a clinic in Lausanne and the medical bulletins -stable but definitely disturbing- have led many to question what might happen from a dynastic point of view. The answer to this question is far from simple, everyone has his/her own vision with strong arguments. Allow us to analyze the situation without siding with the one or the other party.

The Hohenzollern dynastic laws and the throne of Romania
The present Romanian royal dynasty began in 1866 when the young Prince Karl von Hohenzollern became the first reigning Sovereign of Romania of his House. The Constitution of 1866 established very clear rules on the succession to the throne and the members of the Royal Family.

Article 82 stated: "the constitutional powers of the Reigning Prince are hereditary, in direct and legitimate line of His Highness Prince Karl I von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, by right of primogeniture and with the perpetual exclusion of women and their descendants. The descendants of the Reigning Prince will be grown in the Eastern-Orthodox religion."

Article 83 of the Constitution made clear what happened when there were no direct descendant to the throne: "In the absence of descendants in the male line of Prince Karl I von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, the succession to the throne continues to the eldest of his brothers and then to their descendants following the rules established in the preceding article."

In 1881 the Reigning Prince -Karl I- became King Carol I of Romania (from 1866 until 1881 his title was Prince of the United Principalities of Romania) and he had one daughter, Princess Maria. Strictly applying Article 83 of the Constitution of 1866, King Carol I, with the full approval of the Government and the Romanian Parliament, assigned his his heir: Prince Ferdinand von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, son of his brother Prince Leopold. This Prince Ferdinand is the grandfather of the current King Michael. In 1914 he became King of Romania. In 1923 the new Constitution of the Kingdom of Romania was settled. In this new Constitution the rules regarding the succession were reviewed.

Article 78 reads: "In the absence of male-line descendants of His Majesty King Carol I von Hohenzollern, the succession to the throne belongs to the eldest of his brothers or their descendants, following the rules established in the preceding article. When none of his brothers or their descendants are alive or when they have renounced the throne, then the King may designate his successor from amongst the members of a sovereign dynasty of Europe, with the acceptance by a national representation as determined in Article 79."

The analysis of this article, connected with articles 77 and 79, learns that this is a confirmation of the fundamental concept of the Salic law and indicates the Hohenzollerns as heirs to the throne and leaves the possibility to the Sovereign, in absence of other heirs, to indicate a prince of an European sovereign dynasty as his heir. The King could only do this after a formal waiver of rights by the Hohenzollerns and with the requirement of an approval by Parliament.

The dynastic complications

The first dynastic constitutional crisis appeared in 1926, after Crown Prince Carol, the eldest son of King Ferdinand I, formally renounced his rights to the throne. The Prince wanted to live abroad, mainly in France, and made personal choices which were not approved by the royal family. With regret King Ferdinand accepted his son's renunciation and requested Parliament to take note. The Parliament approved the change in the order of succession to the throne, by appointing the 5 years old Prince Michael as heir. Only a year later, in 1927, King Ferdinand died and his nephew, though still a child, became King Michael. His uncle Prince Nicholas, the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church and the President of the Supreme Court of Justice became regents for the young King.

The first reign of King Michael ended abruptly in 1930 when his father Prince Carol returned to Romania and reclaimed the throne, issuing a proclamation as King, with the support of a parts of the political class as well the armed forces. Prince Carol became King Carol II and his son became the heir again, with an additional title: Great Voivode of Alba Iulia. In September 1940, King Carol II was forced to abdicate and his son Prince Michael became King again, for a second time. In 1947, King Michael was forced to abdicate by the Communists. This abdication was declared as null and void by the King himself as it was signed under duress and at the risk of the own safety of the King and the royal family. After his resignation the King and the royal family went into exile in Switzerland, only to return to Romania for the first time in 1997.

The family of King Michael
As King Michael always has been faithful to the monarchical constitution of 1923, which clearly expresses the succession, he was faced with the difficult problem of his succession to the dynastic rights. In 1948 the King married Princess Anne de Bourbon de Parme. The royal couple got five daughters. None of the five princesses grew up in Romania and no one of them married a prince.

The eldest daughter, Princess Margareta, lives in Romania, devoting herself to charity and often representing her father at ceremonies. This representation has intensified in recent years due to the advanced age of King Michael. In 1996 Princess Margareta married Radu Duda, an actor from Romania. The couple have no children.

The second daughter, Princess Elena, married with the British Professor Robin Medforth Mills (then a top diplomat at the United Nations). The couple got two chilren: Nicholas Medforth Mills and Karina Medforth Mills. The couple divorced. After the divorce Princess Elena married the British lawyer Alexander Nixon McAteer.

The third daughter, Princess Irina, married the American businessman John Kreuger with whom she had two sons: Michael Kreuger and Angelica Kreuger. The couple divorced. After the divorce Princess Irina married another American named John Walker. The couple ended as defendants in a trial on charges of organizing illegal cockfights.

The fourth daughter, Princess Sofia, married without approval with the Frenchman Alain Biarneix with whom she had a daughter named Elizabeth Biarneix. The couple divorced. After the divorce Princess Sofia reconciled with her parents.

The fifth and youngest daughter, Princess Maria, lives in Romania and sometimes represents her father, together with her eldest sister. Princess Maria was married to an American of Polish origin, Casimir Mistkowsky but this couple divorced as well. There are no children from this marriage.

After the fall of Communism and the official return of King Michael to his homeland, the popularity of the royal family grew continually. According to recent surveys the King enjoyed the full confidence of approximately 45% of the Romanians and the monarchy -according to polls- was seen favorably by 30% of the population. These data showed that the opportunities for a monarchy in Romania were something concrete and have once again reiterated the need for a clarification on the succession of dynastic rights.

(continue in the next post)

  #423  
Old 03-05-2016, 05:08 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 13,236
(continuation from the previous post)

The German Hohenzollerns

According the dynastic laws provided in the Constitution of 1923, applying Salic law, there are no direct descendants in the male line of King Michael. In Germany however, there are 14 princes alive, all descendants from the brothers of King Carol I of Romania. The head of the German branch is Prince Karl Friedrich von Hohenzollern, born in 1952. This Prince is the sole owner of the business group that deals with the administration of the forests, domains, castles and other assets of his House. The group also owns steelworks and companies manufacturing technic applications and transmissions. The Prince married Countess Alexandra Schenck von Stauffenberg to whom in 1987 a son was born: Hereditary Prince Alexander. The couple also got three daughters: the princesses Filippa, Flaminia and Antonia. After a divorce, the Prince remarried in 2010 with the German businesswoman Katharina de Zomer.

The dynastic question today
In the 1990's some politicians and monarchists saw possibilities for a dialogue with the German Hohenzollerns regarding the succession, as regulated by the Constitution. There was also talk of King Michael adopting his nephew Nicholas. However the King took another path: in 1997 King Michael announced his intention to appoint his eldest daughter Princess Margareta as the one who would continue his mission. This intention has been reiterated in the last statement of the King, dated February 2, 2016 as was released by the Council of the Crown following the King's admission in a clinic in Lausanne.

In 1999 King Michael requested his cousin Prince Friedrich Wilhelm von Hohenzollern, the father of the present head of the House, to give a title to the husband of Princess Margareta. King Michael came to a document signed by the head of the House with which his son-in-law, Radu Duda, could claim the title of Prince von Hohenzollern-Veringen. At that time there was still a dialogue between King Michael and the German Hohenzollerns. According reports the relations cooled more and more with the advancing of years. Prince Karl Friedrich, the present head of the House has never hidden his disapproval of granting a non-existing Hohenzollern title to a non-Hohenzollern, as happened in the case of Radu Duda.

In 2001 King Michael took a surprising decision that would upset the future dynastic question of Romania: he announced to break all ties with the Hohenzollern dynasty and that neither he nor his descendants would be Prince (Princess) von Hohenzollern anymore.

In 2007 the King created and signed a document which theoretically can not have any constitutional value, since the King no longer reigns and no Government or Parliament could ratify it. That document is entitled "Basic principles of the Royal House of Romania". In this document the King announced that times have changed and he saw no reason for the persistence of the Salic law. He inserted his daughters and his grandchildren in a new proposed line of succession which is obviously contrary to the entire Romanian constitutional tradition.

King Michael also granted his son-in-law Radu Duda the title Prince of Romania with the prefix of Royal Highness. He announced that also his nephew Nicholas Medforth Mills, the son of Princess Elena, would become Prince of Romania and a Royal Highness at the age of 25 years. This was, however, in assumption that Parliament -when the people would decide to restore the monarchy- has to consider this new proposed line of succession. Again King Michael has acknowledged that only Parliament has the right to change the rules of succession to the throne.

The German prudence
The reactions of Prince Karl Friedrich von Hohenzollern to all decisions of King Michel between 2001 and 2007 have always been prudent. Basically Prince Karl Friedrich repeated his criticism that King Michael's son-in-law has been given a non-existing title connected with his House, which on itself could not be granted at all. The Prince has never publicly commented on other decisions by the King. Prince Karl Friedrich has also refused to comment on plans by Radu Duda to run for the the presidency of the Republic (after all the fuss the application was never implemented).

Prince Karl Friedrich has never declared himself ready to abandon his activities in Germany and to move to Romania in order to become familiar with the nation, only stressing that Romania's situation was very difficult but at the same time reiterated that the decision concerning the return to a monarchy was up to the Romanian people. There was no formal renunciation of dynastic rights but also no expressed explicit interest either. As Prince Karl Friedrich spoke in a personal capacity and not on behalf of the other princes of his House, it is difficult to understand where the other Hohenzollerns stand in the dynastic pretensions to which they are entitled to by the Constitution of Romania and the laws of the royal dynasty.

The mess of additional exclusions from the succession
The Romanian succession has complicated further in the last two years, as King Michael had agreed to make additional changes to the same line of succession proposed by him in 2007. He excluded his daughter Princess Irina, his grandson Michael Kreuger and his granddaughter Angelica Kreuger following the legal problems of the Princess. It is not clear why there has not been any news-release on the exclusion of these three successors. It has also not been understood why the children of Princess Irina were excluded from the succession as well, since they were totally unrelated to their mother's legal problems.

But what has really shook the Romanian royalists was the exclusion, completely with a Royal Decree, of another grandchild of the King: Nicholas Medforth Mills, who by then (we are in the summer of 2015) -having reached the age of 25 years and according to the provisions of his grandfather- was known as His Royal Highness Prince Nicolae of Romania. Nicholas lived in Bucharest and had become popular in the country, representing the hope for all those who wanted to see the future of the monarchy in Romania with a direct descendant of King Michael, though not in the male line. The reasons for the exclusion of Nicholas are not known and explanations were extremely abstract. We have read and heard it in all colours in the media, from a supposed child out-of-wedlock to other theories even more colourful, but there has been no grounding in any of these.

After the upheavals of August 2015, there remain four people in the proposed line of succession from King Michael. From these four people only the two daughters without children are living in Romania. The two granddaughters of the King who are still in his proposed line of succession are living abroad, do not speak Romanian and they do not have close ties with the country. Many have seen these dynastic "reforms" as a significant obstacle to the success that the Romanian monarchy was receiving in recent years, perhaps driven by forces hostile to the monarchy. But then we remain within the framework of making assumptions.

Three directions
We can conclude that today the Romanian monarchists are at crossroads:
- to request the German Hohenzollerns to assume their responsibilities in the context of dynastic succession, thus respecting the Constitution of 1923 and the Romanian traditon;
- to accept the proposed line by King Michael, which has obviously never been approved by the republican Parliament and otherwise indicates new generations of pretenders to the throne (his grandchildren Karina Medforth Mills and Elisabeth Biarneix) whom currently have no ties with the country;
- some monarchists are even open to a third way which would be to reinstate Nicholas Medforth Mills back into in the line of succession from which he was excluded last year, but this would be quite a stretch in an already complicated situation.

Certainly indicating a line of succession which has not been endorsed by Parliament and in contradiction to the last Constitution has only complicated the question of succession and all this has become clear now that King Michael is at a very advanced age and with an extremely poor health. Who will be the future pretender to the throne of Romania? His Highness Prince Karl Friedrich von Hohenzollern with strong legal and dynastical grounds? Her Royal Highness Princess Margareta of Romania as is desired by her father? Or the excluded grandson, Nicholas Medforth Mills, whom still enjoys popularity in Romania?

By wishing a speedy recovery to His Majesty King Michael, expressing our attachment to his august family, we hope that these dynastic complications do not affect the great work done in Romania to reaffirm the need for the Crown.
  #424  
Old 03-05-2016, 05:48 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
The article is on www.monarchia.it which is the site of the Italian royalists.
  #425  
Old 03-05-2016, 06:16 AM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malm÷, Sweden
Posts: 4,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
My summarization in English from [URL="http://www.monarchia.it/news_2016_romania_dinastica.html"]ROMANIA: LA COMPLESSA SUCCESSIONE DEL RE MICHELE
[/SIZE][/FONT]

Thank you for the translation Duc, what a fantastic job you've done.
  #426  
Old 03-05-2016, 07:00 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
Finally an article that really undetstands the compmexity of the Romanian Succession. Congratulations to the italian royalists!
  #427  
Old 03-05-2016, 07:46 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Herefordshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 3,397
Thank you Duc et Pair for the translation. Very WELL done.
  #428  
Old 03-05-2016, 03:14 PM
Benjamin's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: San Francisco, United States
Posts: 1,990
It seems a bit classless to be having this discussion about the succession (which has been going on back and forth ad nauseum with the same participants and the same facts) when the King is in his current condition.

Surely people can wait until His Majesty is no longer with us for this to become a topic.
__________________
Sii forte.
  #429  
Old 03-05-2016, 03:25 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 13,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin View Post
It seems a bit classless to be having this discussion about the succession (which has been going on back and forth ad nauseum with the same participants and the same facts) when the King is in his current condition.

Surely people can wait until His Majesty is no longer with us for this to become a topic.
The adagium gouverner c'est prÚvoir (to govern is to anticipate) is applying here and the Italian monarchists -naturally- are interested in the complicated situation, as they have the same unclarity "at home".
  #430  
Old 03-05-2016, 04:16 PM
MarNoe's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Utah, United States
Posts: 740
Even though this is a non-reigning monarchy the "succession" should be set before the old monarch dies. It wasn't all that long ago that there were civil wars if there was not a definite successor in place. I think that type of thinking is still valid for any monarchy. Not every country is as lucky as Great Britain.
  #431  
Old 03-05-2016, 04:55 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin View Post
It seems a bit classless to be having this discussion about the succession (which has been going on back and forth ad nauseum with the same participants and the same facts) when the King is in his current condition.

Surely people can wait until His Majesty is no longer with us for this to become a topic.
The Question of the Succession is important to be clear in order to know who will be the future Peetender.
  #432  
Old 03-12-2016, 01:54 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
The Romanian site Flux 24 spoke about the late Prince Johann Georg of Hohenzollern as the seventh in the Line of Succession to the Romanian Throne:

A murit urma╚Öul Regelui Mihai conform Constitu╚Ťiei din 1923
  #433  
Old 03-15-2016, 11:40 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
"Ideea de monarhie este esenţială. Cine să fie monarhul rămÔne o chestiune deschisă discuţiilor"( " The idea of Monarchy is essential. Who the Monarch should be remains a question opened to discussions") says one of the founders of the new Movement for Kingdom and Crown, Ioan Furtuna.



Fondator al Mi┼čc─ârii pentru Regat ┼či Coroan─â: ÔÇ×Succesiunea trebuia s─â se produc─â mai devreme. E inutil s─â mim─âm surprizaÔÇť | adevarul.ro
  #434  
Old 03-15-2016, 12:00 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
"Ideea de monarhie este esenţială. Cine să fie monarhul rămÔne o chestiune deschisă discuţiilor"( " The idea of Monarchy is essential. Who the Monarch should be remains a question opened to discussions") says one of the founders of the new Movement for Kingdom and Crown, Ioan Furtuna.



Fondator al Mi┼čc─ârii pentru Regat ┼či Coroan─â: ÔÇ×Succesiunea trebuia s─â se produc─â mai devreme. E inutil s─â mim─âm surprizaÔÇť | adevarul.ro
The comment above indicates that this association too does not advocate the automatic reinstatement of the 1923 succession. In any case, successions aren't decided (under any constitution or historical precedent) by a (small) bunch of members of any "association."
  #435  
Old 03-15-2016, 12:22 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
The comment recognizes the complexity of the Romanian Succession issue and is not at all against what we read in the 78th and 79th articles of the Constitution of 1923. It is obvious that MRC is more opened to discuss the issue than ANRM.
  #436  
Old 03-15-2016, 12:44 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
The comment recognizes the complexity of the Romanian Succession issue and is not at all against what we read in the 78th and 79th articles of the Constitution of 1923. It is obvious that MRC is more opened to discuss the issue than ANRM.
The comment is not against, but neither is the comment for what we read in the 78th & 79th articles of the 1923 consitution. It states that the succession is an open question.
  #437  
Old 03-15-2016, 12:48 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
According to the Constitution of 1923 the Succession becomes an opened question if the descendants of Carol I of Romania's brothers formally renounce their dynastic rights.
  #438  
Old 03-15-2016, 12:52 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 310
This association's explicit, unambiguous declaration that the succesison is an open question NOW is, therefore, in direct contravention of the 1923 constitution.
  #439  
Old 03-15-2016, 06:58 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
It is not identical anyway with the position of the ANRM.
  #440  
Old 03-15-2016, 07:13 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 310
True, and neither is it identical with the "1923" point of view.
Closed Thread

Tags
hohenzollern, hohenzollern-sigmaringen, romania, royal family of romania, succession


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Mechanics of Abdication and of Succession to the Throne Ellie2 British Royals 234 12-23-2021 05:11 PM
Order of Succession to the Throne GRspecialforces The Royal Family of Greece 38 08-20-2020 08:38 AM
Are the Orleans-Braganza in the line of succession to the French throne? Lecen Royal Families of France 7 12-27-2014 08:49 PM




Popular Tags
#alnahyanwedding #rashidmrm #wedding abolished monarchies africa arcadie claret bevilacqua camilla home caribbean charles iii claret coat of arms commonwealth countries current events death duarte pio edward vii emperor naruhito empress masako espana fallen empires fifa women's world cup garsenda genealogy grace kelly harry history hobbies house of gonzaga international events king charles king philippe lady pamela hicks leopold ier list of rulers mall coronation day matrilineal monaco monarchy movies official visit order of precedence pamela mountbatten portugal prince & princess of wales prince albert monaco prince christian princess of orange queen queen alexandra queen camilla queen elizabeth queen ena of spain ray mill republics restoration royal initials royals royal wedding royal without thrones silk soccer spanish history state visit state visit to france state visit to germany tiaras visit wiltshire woven


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:16 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2023
Jelsoft Enterprises