Succession to the Romanian Throne, Part 1

[Jacknch]

How many constitutions can a country have?! The current Constitution was approved in 1991 following a referendum. Surely that overrides any previous constitution? Accordingly, is it not correct that the restoration of the monarchy in Romania would simply require a referendum and subsequent amendment to the current constitution?

It seems to me that there are no laws currently in place with regard to monarchy in Romania. Therefore, King Michael can change the rules within the royal family in whatever way he likes. If there was a sudden upsurge of support for monarchy in Romania, such upsurge would surely be based upon what the people know today - that there is a king available, that he has heirs in the form of Margarita, Elena and Nicolae.

I cannot imagine that the people of Romania would want to bring back the monarchy and do so on the basis that they would get someone other that King Michael, Margarita etc.

[Cory]

The Constitution of 1923 is not the de facto acting Constitution of the country but it has never been legally abolished. HM the King is de iure King according to that Constitution.
When the Monarchy will be restored the Parliament will decide in favour of the Hohenzollern Succession (established by the 1923 Constitution) or in favour of te Line proposed by HM the King in 2007.

[USCtrojan]

I find it so hard to believe that when the monarchy is restored that they will pass up a crown princess that many romanian have immense love for. This is not 1924, and I have to definitely agree with those who have recently commented, and say that the 1923 constitution,I along done and doubt that it will be a reference point in an restoration situation.

Now, maybe they would decide in whether or not the crown princess should not succeed her father, but I find it hard to believe that they will pass up his grandson who is not only a great presence and doing a fine job, but a young man who is capable of being his grandfathers heir given they might uphold Salic law.

Passing up the Crown Princess and Princess Elena, is a possibility, and I don't see why they wouldn't go to Prince Nicolae.

However... I find it so hard to believe that they would cast aside members of a family that they hold so much respect for just to give the throne to a German prince who has never lived in or likely ever been briefed on Romania.

Just my two cents, so no rude comments, please.

[Cris M]

I can see Princess Elena renouncing her rights, like Princess Charlotte of Monaco, but I think Crown Princess Margarita should reign if the Monarchy is going to be restored.

[USCtrojan]

Originally Posted by Cris M

I can see Princess Elena renouncing her rights, like Princess Charlotte of Monaco, but I think Crown Princess Margarita should reign if the Monarchy is going to be restored.

I agree with you, very much!

[Cory]

There are some Romanians who would prefer HSH Prince Karl of Hohenzollern because they have nothing against a German Prince. Some would consider even Princess Margareta a foreign Princess because she does not speak a perfect Romanian even now. Obviously Princess Margareta, her sister and nephew do not have the huge popularity of HM the King.

We are not speaking about the business skills of HSH Prince Karl but about the clear fact He could be seen as the Heir to the Romanian Throne because of the constitution of 1923.

HM the King is respected by the majority of the people and only few would doubt His Romanian feelings. His daughters are not so known as the King and four of them do not really speak Romanian very well and do not live in the country.
HH Prince Karl is not really supported by many of the Romanian royalists even if those how know the constitution of 1923 can't deny his possible future rights to the Throne.

The Constitution of 1923 has never been legally abolished.The comunist constitutions were abolished in 1989.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by USCtrojan

I find it so hard to believe that when the monarchy is restored that they will pass up a crown princess that many romanian have immense love for. [...]

Thank you for your contribution. My question: how do you know that "many romanians" have an "immense love" for Princess Margarita?

Originally Posted by Cris M

I can see Princess Elena renouncing her rights, like Princess Charlotte of Monaco [...]

You are talking about Princess Charlotte of Monaco, Duchess of Valentinois (1898-1977), I assume? The difference is that Monaco is more or less a private business ruled by one family. So far Princess Margarita and Princess Elena have nothing to renounce because they are not even in the line of succession, also not according the old Constitution of the Kingdom of Romania.... Apart from that, Romania is a large country with geographic, historic and cultural differences, a population of almost 21 million from different ethnic backgrounds. It is not as easy as in little Monaco to change things as if it is a family business...

The one who is now the Heir according to the old Constitution of the Kingdom of Romania keeps a low profile. This because a restoration is very theoretical. But at the moment that a restoration is apparent, without any doubt the sleeping dog named Prince Karl Friedrich von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, will wake up, bark and claim his position. I have no any doubt about that.

[USCtrojan]

I personally see that as sad, as this is the 21st century and if e doesn't recognize that the current family deserves it more than him, I find it hard to believe that people would be jumping for joy!

He should be barking now and not waiting for a restoration as it is obvious that the king is up there in age!

As for my comment on Margarita and the popularity of the family in general is what I hear from others in this thread now. It's also quite apparent with the publicity the family gets now with the many engagements, and all.

The same unfortunately can't be said about CP Aleksander of Serbia.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Well, probably Prince Karl Friedrich von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen thinks he can better use his energy to manage his House's patrimonium and considerable financial assets, instead of wasting it to a theoretical claim. The Prince is the CEO of the "Fürst von Hohenzollern Enterprises Group" and is one of the largest employers in Sigmaringen and region. As Owner/President of the Prinz von Hohenzollern Capital GmbH & Co he holds seven "closed equity" companies (= businesses which are not open to the stock markets) and has three private equity companies.

The Prince is also member of the Boards of the Bayerische Landesbank, the Gothaer Versicherungsbank, the Landesbank Baden-Württemberg, the Commerzbank and the Baden-Württembergische Handelsbank as well is a Commissioner (= member of the Supervisersory Board) of the Südwestbank.

I feel in your words you have more appreciation for Princess Margareta and Radu because they show their face. In fact, seeing the enormous network of Prince Karl Friedrich in the haute finances of one of the world's economic super powers (Germany), I think maybe he has far more knowledge and understanding of economics than his Romanian family. One can argue Prince Karl Friedrich would be the best King to help and guide Romania in a transfer to a modern EU memberstate and economy and would be very instrumental in that process...

[USCtrojan]

I think that's great -clearly he is a successful man. But, his money and great job doesn't necessarily make him the best one for the job. When standing back and looking at it, the members if the family that are living and dedicated to Romania are just as successful and just as able, if not more to do the job.

[USCtrojan]

Originally Posted by Cory

We are not speaking about the business skills of HSH Prince Karl but about the clear fact He could be seen as the Heir to the Romanian Throne because of the constitution of 1923.

You are right... His finances have nothing to do with it.

I was simply pointing out that it doesn't matter what either sides finances are, that it won't change how capable one is over the other.

[Duc_et_Pair]

The point is that Prince Karl Friedrich simply is the successor of King Michael according to the Constitution of the Kingdom of Romania. Apparently Margareta and Radu Duda are seen as "dedicated to Romania" but they have a purpose with that. Prince Karl Friedrich is a financially independent man who has to run large businesses and care for his House's patrimonium.

It is in Princess Margareta's own interest to show some "dedication" because their father is dependent on the arrangements the State of Romania made. In 2001 the State of Romania granted former King Michael the same rights as former presidents and gave Elizabeta Palace at his disposal for as long as he lives.

His family also won back Savarsin Castle, which the King had bought in 1943. The family now operates it partly as a bed and breakfast. With other words, it is in the very own personal interests of Princess Margareta and Radu Duda to remain in the picture and keep the sake of the monarchy on the agenda, notwithstanding the fact that Margareta is not a successor at all. Their position as daughter and son-in-law to Romania's last King is in their interest. It prevents them for becoming a 'nobody'.

I think the restoration of the monarchy is as remote for Princess Margariea as it is for Prince Karl Friedrich. The last one however does not depend on Romania for anything so it is pretty logical he remains on the background.

[Cory]

The restoration of monarchy is very possible but Prince Karl is not really known in Romania. His son, Prince Alexander, is even less known than his father.

We are in the same situation as in 1889 when there were no male Heirs and the Heir to King Carol I became Prince Ferdinand of Hohenzollern?

The Line of Succession according to the Romanian Constitution of 1923 would be the following :

HH Karl Friedrich, Prince of Hohenzollern (b. 1952)
HSH Alexander, Hereditary Prince of Hohenzollern (b. 1987)
Prince Albrecht of Hohenzollern (b. 1954)
Prince Ferdinand of Hohenzollern (b. 1960)
Prince Aloys of Hohenzollern (b. 1999)
Prince Fidelis of Hohenzollern (b. 2001)
Prince Johann-Georg of Hohenzollern (b. 1932)
Prince Carl Christian of Hohenzollern (b. 1962)
Prince Nicolas of Hohenzollern (b. 1999)
Prince Hubertus of Hohenzollern (b. 1966)
Prince Ferfried of Hohenzollern (b. 1943)
Prince Meinrad of Hohenzollern (b. 1925)
Prince Carl Alexander of Hohenzollern (b. 1970)
Carlos Patrick von Hohenzollern (styled Prince of Hohenzollern) (b. 1978)
.

[USCtrojan]

I personally find it hard to believe that Romania will recognize the 1923 constitution when a monarchy is restored, as to do is just insane given that Romania has already written more than one constitution since 1923!

I also find it crazy that Romania (if they had to choose), would prefer a crown princess who is Romanian by birth and is ( we don't know the numbers), well respected, over a prince who has no connections to Romania other than a " succession" according to a constitution that is defunct and 91 years old!

I understand that according the 1923 constitution Margarita has no rights, and neither do her sister and nephew.

Just last year The UK changed their succession laws, so that in the event little George were a girl, she would succeed her father, even if a brother would be eventually born.

Sweden did the same thing for Princess Victoria who took up the place if her brother due to a constitution change allowing the first born, female or not to succeed the current monarch.

I personally don't see how Romania would skip over the daughter of a former reining monarch, for a German prince who has no ties to the country.

His finances absolutely would not be the deciding factor!

This is the 21st century, and women are being seen just as important then the men in the family when it comes to succession rights, both in reigning houses and non-reigning houses.

Just my two cents!

[USCtrojan]

Originally Posted by Cory

There are some Romanians who would prefer HSH Prince Karl of Hohenzollern because they have nothing against a German Prince. Some would consider even Princess Margareta a foreign Princess because she does not speak a perfect Romanian even now. Obviously Princess Margareta, her sister and nephew do not have the huge popularity of HM the King.

Of course not! Why would they? The king was a reining monarch in the country twice. There is some popularity there however for all of them, as well as some respect for the family in general. It's hard to compare the family with the king in terms of popularity.

[USCtrojan]

Constitution of Romania
Created21 November 1991
Ratified8 December 1991 *revised 2003*
Author(s)Antonie Iorgovan et al.
PurposeReplaced the 1965 constitution

Constitution of Romania
Created28 June 1965
RatifiedAugust 21 1965
PurposeReplace the 1952 Constitution

Constitution of Romania
Created1952
Ratified24 September 1952
PurposeReplace the 1948 Constitution

Constitution of Romania
Ratified13 April 1948
PurposeReplace the re-established and modified 1923 Constitution

Constitution of Romania
Created1922 - 1923
Ratified29 March 1923
SignatoriesFerdinand I
PurposeReplace the 1866 Constitution

Constitution of Romania
Created13 June [O.S. 1 June] 1866
Ratified13 June [O.S. 1 June] 1866
SignatoriesCarol I
PurposeReplace the Statutul Desvoltător al Convenţiei de la Paris as Constitution of the Principality of Romania

United Principalities (1859–62)
Romanian United Principalities (1862–66)
Romania (1866–81)
Principatele Unite (1859–62)
Principatele Unite Române (1862–66)
România (1866–81)

After doing some research, I can't see parliament re-instating the 1923 constitution! It has in fact been replaced. If and when the monarchy is restored, it would surprise me if they went back to the 1923 constitution just because they are restoring. It would make the Mose sense to replace the 1991 constitution with a more modern version of 1923.

It is blatantly clear that the 1923 constitution is completely null and void! I mean, it's four constitutions out.

If and when the monarchy is restored, they likely could take into consideration the adjustments HM the King made.

[Ish]

Originally Posted by Cory

The Constitution of 1923 has never been legally abolished.The comunist constitutions were abolished in 1989.

The 1923 constitution has been repealed twice; in 1938 by Carol II only to be brought back in 1944 and again in 1947/1948 when Romania became a Republic. Just because the Communist constitution (first adopted in 1948, then revised in 1952 and 1965) was repealed in 1989 doesn't mean that the 1923 constitution was brought back. The current constitution in effect in Romania is the 1991 constitution, which names Romania as a republic. As such the Romanian government cannot legislate changes to the succession to the Romanian throne without changing the constitution and the form of government - both things which it cannot democratically do without referendum.

[Cory]

There will be obviously a referendum to bring back the Monarchy. The Constitution of 1923 has never been LEGALLY abolished so all the constitutions after it could be questioned. The Line of succession remain the same as until now without a new decision of the parliament.

There are only two Lines of Succession possible: the Line indicated by the Constitution of 1923 (Prince Karl) and the line proposed by the king in 2007 (Princess Margareta).

I do not know if the Romanian royalists will really support Prince Karl in the case of Restoration. Not all of them agree Prince Karl would be the Heir of King Mihai.

According to the Constitution of 1923 HSH Prince Karl of Hohenzollern would be the Heir to the Romanian throne after HM King Mihai I. More and more Romanians suppose a foreign Prince would be really helpful like in 1866.
Even if he doesn't speak to much about this issue HSH Prince Karl has never given up to this rights.
The possible future Crown Prince of Romania is known for being a serious business man and for respecting the traditions of His House.
Would He be a good King for Romania?

If we have a thread about Prncess Margareta we should have one also one about Prince Karl because each of them represents one of the two possible Lines of Succession.

But the name of this thread could be "Prince Karl of Hohenzollern and the romanian succession"?

HH Prince Karl of Hohenzollern has never officially given up his rights to the Romanian Throne (that comes from the Romanian Constitution of 1923 never democratically and legally abolished) and he can proclaim himself Head of the Royal House of Romania when HM the King won't be among us anymore.

The great popularity of HM the King's grandson Nicolae will probably bring him as future Pretender supported by the royalists. Very few would support HRH Princess Margareta as Pretender and even less would support HH Prince Karl.

[Ish]

Originally Posted by Cory

There will be obviously a referendum to bring back the Monarchy. The Constitution of 1923 has never been LEGALLY abolished so all the constitutions after it could be questioned. The Line of succession remain the same as until now without a new decision of the parliament.

This is kind of ridiculous.

While the Communists may not have legally abolished the constitution, when the communists were overthrown and the PEOPLE chose not to demand that the Romanian family be reinstated the fact became that the 1923 constitution no longer applied in Romania. The constitution that is now important is the 1991 constitution which established Romania as a democratic republic.

The Romanian government as such has no position to alter the succession to the Romanian throne, as it no longer LEGALLY recognizes the Romanian throne.

The Romanian Royal Family can be forced to adhere to the succession as laid out in the 1923 constitution by 2 things - 1. Romanian monarchists who are in a position to support the claimant of their choosing, 2. the claimants themselves, who can make things more or less difficult as they gather support and recognition (or fail to do so) within Romania.

While things may be calmer now, it's only owing to the fact that the King (or former King) is still alive. He continues to have the support of the monarchists because he actually reigned and is still alive. Once he dies, however, monarchists in Romania may not chose to support HM's chosen successor. They may instead chose to support one of the three other successors. Or they may not. Or they may be divided on the issue.

And it's not obvious that there will be a referendum. A referendum HAS to happen for the introduction of a constitutional monarchy that adheres to democratic principles, but that doesn't mean that there will be one. Unless the government choses to have one, or the people demand one, one won't happen. Is there really any real reason to believe that the government is going to do so unless forced to - or that the people in mass want one?

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by USCtrojan

[....] I also find it crazy that Romania (if they had to choose), would prefer a crown princess who is Romanian by birth and is ( we don't know the numbers), well respected, over a prince who has no connections to Romania other than a " succession" according to a constitution that is defunct and 91 years old!

The present King of Spain was born in Rome (Italy) and spent his childhood in Estoril (Portugal). He was in line of succession for the Spanish Throne according to the Constitution 1876 which was first replaced by a (republican) Constitution 1931 and after the Civil War by the Constitution 1938 (Franco) before finally in 1978 the present Constitution came into force. All this did not prevent a foreign-born and partly foreign-raised gentleman with rights on base of the Constitution of 1876 to become King of Spain...