The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #301  
Old 02-23-2016, 12:14 PM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 4,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRohan View Post
One could always add, although it is with hesitation, knowing the debate it always causes, that the House of Hohenzollern relinquished their rights to the Romanian throne as late as 2008. The princely house of Hohenzollern has thus made it very clear that Romania and the house of Hohenzollern parted ways centuries ago, and despite being from the same lineage, the two entities are distinct now.

If an heir to a restored Romania throne were to be sought outside of the Romanian Royal Family at a time of restoration, it might be that the house of Hohenzollern is asked to provide an heir again, but as long as there is a Royal Family in Romania, willing to serve and able to communicate and connect with the Romanians, it is logical to assume that a dynastic restoration would start from the RF.

Which member(s)? Only time can tell, but to claim that the only 'legal' way to restore a monarchy in Romania is to restore a long-gone constitution is on par with believeing that only 3/5 of black people in America should be counted as citizens, as the American constitution originally said in its 13th amendment, or that one can be stoned to death if wearing clothes made from two different fabrics, as it says in the Bible, Leviticus 19:19.

Time's change, laws, rules and principles adjust to be relevant and a monarchy most of all, banging its head into the wall of democracy as it does, must live in the now to continue to exist. To bang on about a dead constitution and a line of succession rejected by the foreign house once in it, just serves to undermine the monarchical cause, in Romania as well as in other states where a restoration is possible.

When the house of Hohenzollern made it clear that they do not wish to claim rights to the Romanian throne, and King Michael thereafter wrote a proposed new line of succession for parliament to consider should they wish to restore the monarchy, it seems to me that things were done correctly by the dynastic members of both the house of Hohenzollern and the Romanian RF. It therefore follows that any future Romanian monarch will come from the RF, unless something unforeseen happens, and that is where it stands.

As always the one voice of reason in this ongoing Romanian mess.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app
  #302  
Old 02-23-2016, 01:34 PM
Jacknch's Avatar
Former Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Posts: 9,227
I remember we came to this conclusion two or three times before - if the monarchy is restored in Romania, such restoration will be based upon a brand new constitution (as opposed to any previous constitution) and the monarch will either King Michael or one of his heirs.

All that would be needed now is a referendum
__________________
JACK
  #303  
Old 02-23-2016, 09:03 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Posts: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacknch View Post
All that would be needed now is a referendum
That would be 2 referendums. Article 152 of the Constitution of Romania states that the republican form of government "shall not be subject to revision." So that would have to be amended before a referendum on the monarchy could be held.
  #304  
Old 02-24-2016, 03:27 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
The Parliament will decide in case of the Restoration of Monarchy to ask the Hohenzollerns to accept the Crown or to look for another solution.
  #305  
Old 02-24-2016, 03:46 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
The Parliament will decide in case of the Restoration of Monarchy to ask the Hohenzollerns to accept the Crown or to look for another solution.
I would express it differently: ."....to ask King Michael to accept the Crown or to look for another solution."
  #306  
Old 02-24-2016, 04:42 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
It is very unlikely the King will be still able to accept the Crown the restoration would not be possible very soon. His proposal of Succession has no constitutional vonsequences so the Succession ofvthe Hohenzollerns is automatic unless they refuse it.
  #307  
Old 02-24-2016, 05:18 AM
MAfan's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: N/A, Italy
Posts: 6,329
Do you really think that the Romanian republican Parliament will just unquestioningly ad uncritically follow what the abrogated 1923 Constitution stated about the succession, when (and if) it should chose the new King?
Isn't it practically a bit unlikely?
__________________
  #308  
Old 02-24-2016, 07:47 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
They would certainly believe a Prince of Hohenzollern could be a more neutral Head of State that the wife of a man who wanted to candidate to become the president of the republic.
  #309  
Old 02-24-2016, 07:52 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
It is very unlikely the King will be still able to accept the Crown the restoration would not be possible very soon. His proposal of Succession has no constitutional vonsequences so the Succession ofvthe Hohenzollerns is automatic unless they refuse it.
No, it is not automatic and here's why:

For anyone - King Michael, his family or the Hohenzollerns - to be offered the throne, a new constitution reinstating the monarchy would have had to be approved beforehand: you cannot offer anyone a throne that doesn't exist.

The throne would be offered to the person designated by the new constitution, according to the rules laid out in that new constitution. In effect, whoever is chosen, a new monarchy will be instated because the old one was abolished. This is essentially what happened in Spain, when the Count of Barcelona was bypassed in favour of King Juan Carlos I.
  #310  
Old 02-24-2016, 08:09 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
Bypassed but than gave up on favour of his son who was next in line. In the Romania case Prince Karl could be bypassed too in favour of other Prince of Hohenzollern if the House of Hohenzollern and the Parliament agrees.
  #311  
Old 02-24-2016, 08:13 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Bypassed but than gave up on favour of his son who was next in line. In the Romania case Prince Karl could be bypassed too in favour of other Prince of Hohenzollern if the House of Hohenzollern and the Parliament agrees.
He could be: new constitution, new rules! Then again, maybe the Hohenzollerns wouldn't be considered by Parliament at all.
  #312  
Old 02-24-2016, 08:17 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 13,236
Two things are mixed here: a restoration and the line of succession.

In case of a restoration of the monarchy, a most unlikely event, the Romanians will decide and then also the rules of the game (like the succession) will be set. That is one. I agree with all posters who say that nothing is automatic. Not for Miss Medforth Mills, not for Miss Biarneix but also not for the Fürst von Hohenzollern or his son Prince Alexander.

Then comes two: the line of succession. This is the big division here. A group on this forum thinks that the succession can be unilaterally changed, totally to King Michael's daily whims. He can decide to add Princess Irina, Michael Torsten, Kohen Torsten, Angelica Knight, Courtney Knight and Diana Knight. With one scratch from his pen he can remove them again. Scccrrrrrrrrrraaaatchhhhh, there they went, out of the window, all of them...! With the same pen he can simply remove Nicholas Medforth-Mills. Just for his daily whims. Bam! He has been added to the line of succession. Bam! He gets a title and the prefix HRH. Bam! He is removed again. Bam! He has lost his title and prefix. Byeeee.

And then there is another group on this forum which has a more legalistic view. Until 8 years ago simply the Constitution of 1923 was followed. For more than 60 years the very same King Michael followed the Constitution. With the usual stance: when a monarchy has become defunct, the situation is frozen, as there is no legal Government and no legal Parliament to change it. This second group on this forum questions King Michael's right to "regulate" the succession depending to the mood of the day.

This second group sees the monarchal system always part of, and embedded in, a legal system with checks and balances. The first group accepts a dictatorship: The Great Michael Has Spoken, And So Will Be Done.

That is all. In my personal opinion King Michael had no right to decide unilaterally. Had he done it in close consultation with the Fürst von Hohenzollern and Prince Alexander, solemnly signed and added with the Grand Seal of both, okay... then we can say that all parties involved in the succession to the defunct throne have agreed on a new settlement. But here it is all one-sided. That is the real problem.
  #313  
Old 02-24-2016, 11:09 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
Even a Royal Family does not reign anymore the rules of Succession remain and the Succession is automatic. Those that are against the Succession of the Hohenzollerns deny all the Romanian royal tradition, all the Romanian royal Constitution.
  #314  
Old 02-24-2016, 11:36 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Two things are mixed here: a restoration and the line of succession.

In case of a restoration of the monarchy, a most unlikely event, the Romanians will decide and then also the rules of the game (like the succession) will be set. That is one. I agree with all posters who say that nothing is automatic. Not for Miss Medforth Mills, not for Miss Biarneix but also not for the Fürst von Hohenzollern or his son Prince Alexander.

Then comes two: the line of succession. This is the big division here. A group on this forum thinks that the succession can be unilaterally changed, totally to King Michael's daily whims. He can decide to add Princess Irina, Michael Torsten, Kohen Torsten, Angelica Knight, Courtney Knight and Diana Knight. With one scratch from his pen he can remove them again. Scccrrrrrrrrrraaaatchhhhh, there they went, out of the window, all of them...! With the same pen he can simply remove Nicholas Medforth-Mills. Just for his daily whims. Bam! He has been added to the line of succession. Bam! He gets a title and the prefix HRH. Bam! He is removed again. Bam! He has lost his title and prefix. Byeeee.

And then there is another group on this forum which has a more legalistic view. Until 8 years ago simply the Constitution of 1923 was followed. For more than 60 years the very same King Michael followed the Constitution. With the usual stance: when a monarchy has become defunct, the situation is frozen, as there is no legal Government and no legal Parliament to change it. This second group on this forum questions King Michael's right to "regulate" the succession depending to the mood of the day.

This second group sees the monarchal system always part of, and embedded in, a legal system with checks and balances. The first group accepts a dictatorship: The Great Michael Has Spoken, And So Will Be Done.

That is all. In my personal opinion King Michael had no right to decide unilaterally. Had he done it in close consultation with the Fürst von Hohenzollern and Prince Alexander, solemnly signed and added with the Grand Seal of both, okay... then we can say that all parties involved in the succession to the defunct throne have agreed on a new settlement. But here it is all one-sided. That is the real problem.
The Hohenzollerns had no dialogue with the King regarding the Succession in 2007.
  #315  
Old 02-24-2016, 11:46 AM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Even a Royal Family does not reign anymore the rules of Succession remain and the Succession is automatic. Those that are against the Succession of the Hohenzollerns deny all the Romanian royal tradition, all the Romanian royal Constitution.
There is no succession to a throne that does not exist. There is therefore no automatic succession to an abolished throne. If Romania had been a monarchy continually and not had this period as a republic, the constitution would had been amended to allow female succession when it was clear the King would only have daughters. Ask anyone in Romanian politics or civil life that question, and they will all confirm it.
If the monarchy is restored, it is therefore illogical to assume, and almost demand, that every member of the Royal Family be bypassed, in favour of a member of the Hohenzollern house, just because they were in the line of succession in 1947, when the monarchy was abolished.

There is a Royal Family in Romania, with enough members in it, active and engaged in Romanian civic and social life to be a basis for a revived monarchy. When they have clearly stated their willingness to serve Romania in whatever capacity the nation wants, and when the Hohenzollerns equally made it clear many years ago that they have no interest in the Romanian throne, that really is undeniably clear.

If the Royal Family did not want to return to the throne, it would make sense to look to the historical lines of succession and family to find a potential heir to ask. But here's the thing: In order for the question to even be asked, in order for people to care and politicians to address the issue, someone has to draw reasonable attention to the issue.

Only the Romanian Royal Family does that, for good, bad and everything in between.
__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
  #316  
Old 02-24-2016, 11:51 AM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
The Hohenzollerns had no dialogue with the King regarding the Succession in 2007.
if you have evidence to support that statement, please provide it. Otherwise it is just an unsubstantiated claim, countered by the facts. The head of the Hohenzollern answered the question of Romania before the King drew up a new suggested line of succession, in case of a restoration, where, again, he made it clear the Hohenzollerns had no interest in the Romanian throne, after that, it was logical for the King to sever formal ties with the princely house, and make it clear the Royal Family was from, for and of Romania.
__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
  #317  
Old 02-24-2016, 12:15 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRohan View Post
There is no succession to a throne that does not exist. There is therefore no automatic succession to an abolished throne. If Romania had been a monarchy continually and not had this period as a republic, the constitution would had been amended to allow female succession when it was clear the King would only have daughters. Ask anyone in Romanian politics or civil life that question, and they will all confirm it.
If the monarchy is restored, it is therefore illogical to assume, and almost demand, that every member of the Royal Family be bypassed, in favour of a member of the Hohenzollern house, just because they were in the line of succession in 1947, when the monarchy was abolished.

There is a Royal Family in Romania, with enough members in it, active and engaged in Romanian civic and social life to be a basis for a revived monarchy. When they have clearly stated their willingness to serve Romania in whatever capacity the nation wants, and when the Hohenzollerns equally made it clear many years ago that they have no interest in the Romanian throne, that really is undeniably clear.

If the Royal Family did not want to return to the throne, it would make sense to look to the historical lines of succession and family to find a potential heir to ask. But here's the thing: In order for the question to even be asked, in order for people to care and politicians to address the issue, someone has to draw reasonable attention to the issue.

Only the Romanian Royal Family does that, for good, bad and everything in between.
The Romanian royalist politicians met the King different times after 1990 in order to convince him to have a dialogue withthe Hohenzollerns or to adopt his grandson Nicholas.

The Succession is to the dynastic rights is automatic and is accrding to the 1947 rules because no Parliament could decide to change them in meantime.

Regarding the descendants of the King both his grandaughters do not live in the country and do not see to have too much interest in it either.
  #318  
Old 02-24-2016, 12:17 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 13,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRohan View Post

[...]
There is a Royal Family in Romania, with enough members in it, active and engaged in Romanian civic and social life to be a basis for a revived monarchy.
[...]
Enough members? Active? Engaged? It is Radu with Margaretha. So now and then assisted by Maria. That is it.

The King
lives outside Romania

The Queen
lives outside Romania

Princess Margareta
does some activities

Radu Duda
the most active member of all

Princess Elena
lives outside Romania

Nicholas Medforth-Mills
is no member of the Royal House

Karina Medforth-Mills
lives outside Romania

Princess Irina
is no member of the Royal House

Michael Kreuger
is no member of the Royal House

Kohen Kreuger
is no member of the Royal House

Angelica Kreuger
is no member of the Royal House

Courtney Knight
is no member of the Royal House

Bianca Knight
is no member of the Royal House

Princess Sophie
lives outside Romania

Elisabeth Biarneix
lives outside Romania

Princess Maria
has some public appearances in Romania
  #319  
Old 02-24-2016, 12:23 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,668
The Kreugers, the Knights, Miss Medforth Mills and Miss Biarneix have never been members of the Royal Family anyhow.
Michael Kreuger's son and Angelica Kreuger Knight's daughers have never been mentioned even in the proposed line of succession desired by the Elisabeta Palace.
  #320  
Old 02-24-2016, 12:28 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 13,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
The Kreugers, the Knights, Miss Medforth Mills and Miss Biarneix have never been members of the Royal Family anyhow.
Michael Kreuger's son and Angelica Kreuger Knight's daughers have never been mentioned even in the proposed line of succession desired by the Elisabeta Palace.
Yes but I was more thinking about "the Royal House" not about the succession. For a comparison: Princess Philippa, Princess Flaminia and Princesa Antonia are in no any line of succession but are very much members of the House of Hohenzollern as their brother Prince Alexander. Like Radu Duda is a member of the House of Romania without having succession rights.
Closed Thread

Tags
hohenzollern, hohenzollern-sigmaringen, romania, royal family of romania, succession


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Mechanics of Abdication and of Succession to the Throne Ellie2 British Royals 234 12-23-2021 05:11 PM
Order of Succession to the Throne GRspecialforces The Royal Family of Greece 38 08-20-2020 08:38 AM
Are the Orleans-Braganza in the line of succession to the French throne? Lecen Royal Families of France 7 12-27-2014 08:49 PM




Popular Tags
#alnahyan #baby #princedubai #rashidmrm america arcadie arcadie claret british caroline charles iii claret crest current events defunct thrones duarte pio edward vii elizabeth ii emperor naruhito fabio bevilacqua fallen empires fallen kingdom fifa women's world cup football genealogy general news grace kelly grimaldi hamdan bin ahmed history hollywood hotel room for sale international events introduction jewels king king charles king willem-alexander leopold ier list of rulers matrilineal monaco monarchy new zealand; cyclone gabrielle official visit order of the redeemer overseas tours pamela hicks portugal preferences prince & princess of wales prince albert monaco prince christian princess of wales queen queen camilla queen elizabeth ii queen mathilde queen maxima ray mill republics restoration royal without thrones silk soccer spain spanish royal family state visit to germany switzerland visit william


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:17 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2023
Jelsoft Enterprises