Succession to the Romanian Throne, Part 1

[Cory]

It is hard to know if King Michael's descendants really hope for a Restoration but they know in the case of a Restoration probably they won't be chosen to reign.

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Cory

It is hard to know if King Michael's descendants really hope for a Restoration but they know in the case of a Restoration probably they won't be chosen to reign.

This is pure misinformation. Crown Princess Margarita made it clear before Christmas that the Royal Family is positive towards a restoration of the monarchy, and there is no reason they would 'know in the case of a restoration probably the won't be chosen to reign'.

It is both illogical and highly wishful thinking to state that the Royal Family of Romania does not see themselves in the future of a Romanian monarchy. That you wish for a different solution is fine and fair, Cory, but it's disingenuous to make claims you know to be wrong, as the RF has made clear on many occasions.

[Cory]

Do you suppose they really believe they could reign?Even if they say it I really doubt they do not understand what is going on. Only a part of the royalists really support Princess Margareta not to speak about the majority of the people. After what happened in the last months their chances to ever reign are not really great.
They know in the case of Restoration of Monarchy the Parliament can choose to remain faithful to what has always been the royalist Romanian tradition and to call the Hohenzollerns.
The royalists have never been so divided and those supporting the descendants of the King look with sympathy more to Mr Medforth Mills than to anybody else.

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Cory

Do you suppose they really believe they could reign?Even if they say it I really doubt they do not understand what is going on. Only a part of the royalists really support Princess Margareta not to speak about the majority of the people. After what happened in the last months their chances to ever reign are not really great.
They know in the case of Restoration of Monarchy the Parliament can choose to remain faithful to what has always been the royalist Romanian tradition and to call the Hohenzollerns.
The royalists have never been so divided and those supporting the descendants of the King look with sympathy more to Mr Medforth Mills than to anybody else.

The short answer is yes. I do believe they believe in what they say. 'We are ready to serve our country if called upon'. That seems fairly clear to me. If you want to say their words mean the opposite, I guess that's up to you, but it holds no basis or logic.
Most of your post again attack the Romanian Royal Family, but I ask you again, can you please point to ANY source in Romania who actively support restarting the monarchy under a German prince of Hohenzollern? I still have not seen one.

There is uncertainty in Romania, as there would be in most countries, about how to restart a monarchy, when there is no clear heir. If the King had a son, he would be the Crown Prince and seen as a natural heir. I wish you would consider that sometimes, that in this world, in 2016, it is no longer natural to exclude Kings daughters because they're women, and that the Royal Family in Romania is seen, in the country, as the Royal Family, because they're the family of the King. That's how a Royal Family is defined. Whom in the family would be chosen to reign in a restored monarchy, I don't know, it will be up to parliament, but as you yourself say, most royalists still look to Nicholas, and so do I.

[Cory]

You do not really fully understand the reality of Romania and obviously you do not know the Romanian royalists. The King is still very respected by everybody but many royalists doubt that things would be the same when he won' t be here anymore. There are royalists who look with hope towards the Hohenzollerns but no royalist Associatian officially speak about such an issue. The Succession of the Hohenzollerns represent the royalist Romanian tradition not my personal idea. I completely agree both males and females could inherit the Throne but that could be decided only by the Parliamemt when the Monarchy is restored. After what happened last august the royalists that support the King's descendants are divided between those that are in favour of Princess Margareta (whose proposed Line of Succession includes after her three sisters and two nieces) and those who still believe in Mr Medforth Mills. Uncertainty is a soft word to describe the reality of Romanian royalists.
When we speak about a reality it is wonderful if we know it a little bit otherwise is more wishful thinking.
I do not attack anybody but I know the Romanian realities more than people that only visited that country.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by LadyRohan

[...] There is no person in Romania named Michael von Hohenzollern. [...]

On the 10th of May 2011 the then 89-years old Michael von Hohenzollern (Sigmaringen branch) decided to sever all ties with his House and since then he names himself and his descendants as Al României. When there was no person in Romania named Michael von Hohenzollern, as you claim: why then all this fuss on May 10th 2011????

Until May 10th he was Majestatea Sa Mihai I, prin grația lui Dumnezeu și voința națională, Rege al României, Mare Voievod de Alba Iulia, Principe al României, Principe de Hohenzollern (His Majesty Michael I, by the Grace of God and by national will, King of Romania, Grand-Duke of Alba Iulia, Prince of Romania, Prince of Hohenzollern).

Michael is as much a Hohenzollern as Carl-Gustaf is a Bernadotte. Come on!

[Marengo]

True and I am sure king Carl Gustav will be the first to agree that he is a member of the house Bernadotte. However, he may also point out that despite that, Bernadotte is not his last name as he has no last name.

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Marengo

True and I am sure king Carl Gustav will be the first to agree that he is a member of the house Bernadotte. However, he may also point out that despite that, Bernadotte is not his last name as he has no last name.

Hear, hear.
There is a significant difference between a last name and a family name/house of descendancy. The King made a choice as to his affiliation, that is his prerogative and I see no reason to disregard his own, sovereign wish. It does not negate the family history, but speaks clearly about his wish for the future.

[Cory]

A reigning King can decide to change the surname of thid Royal Family and the Parliament can approve it. King Michael's decision is a private one and the Hohenzollerns did not even isdued a Statement to answer to such a decision.
The royal history of Romania is all linked with Hohenzollerns that were proud to be Hohenzollerns.
Now anyway it is irrelevant .

[MAfan]

Originally Posted by Cory

King Michael's decision is a private one and the Hohenzollerns did not even isdued a Statement to answer to such a decision.

On the contrary, they gave a response to King Michael's decision: more precisely, a spokeman for the Prince of Hohenzollern back in 2011 said that the Prince didn't care about it, considering the process of historical evolution that took place in the past century.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Marengo

True and I am sure king Carl Gustav will be the first to agree that he is a member of the house Bernadotte. However, he may also point out that despite that, Bernadotte is not his last name as he has no last name.

Gosh... the King's son-in-law adding the name Bernadotte to his name. Where did that come from, all out of the blue... So weird... they are not Bernadottes, you claim ?

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Cory

A reigning King can decide to change the surname of thid Royal Family and the Parliament can approve it. King Michael's decision is a private one and the Hohenzollerns did not even isdued a Statement to answer to such a decision.
The royal history of Romania is all linked with Hohenzollerns that were proud to be Hohenzollerns.
Now anyway it is irrelevant .

That is true. All those changes, additions and removals by Michal's own personal whims are most discutable. What I say: when a monarchy is no longer functional, a glass dome is placed over it. Everything is frozen. Too bad for them.

Some German Hohenzollern-relatives went to Court to fight the Hausgesetz which also regulates who is in line of succession for the headship of the House. Some German Hohenzollerns found the Hausgesetz outdated (as some fellow posters here find the Romanian Royal Constutition outdated). Some thought they were unlawfully removed because of a non-Standesgemäß marriage, some thought that females and males should have equal rights, etc. Anyway, plenty of reasons also heard here why the Romanian rules "should cope with modern time".

The Bundesgerichtshof (the highest administrative and civil Court of Justice in Germany) ruled the Hohenzollern Hausgesetz as lawful and applicable. The Justices ruled that violations of fundamental rights of descendants in a Will can cause that -in exceptional cases- the protected testamentary freedom of a testator should be overruled because the testamentary disposition is immoral and therefore void. For an example when a regulation aims to restrict the freedom of those affected in their highly personal decisions or reducing them in their human dignity.

The Bundesgerichtshof disagreed that the disputed Erbunfähigkeitsklausel (the clausule making Heirs unfit for succession) would aim to intervene in the selection of a particular spouse or children, or to defame not evenly matched marriage according to the views of the Nobility. Rather the aim was that a suitable successor should be found for the historic and traditional patrimonium. Such an objective is covered by the testamentary freedom. In contrast, the invasion of the fundamental rights falls not so significant that the Erbunfähigkeitsklausel would be immoral and therefore void. The legitimate interests of the descendants are already safeguarded by the inheritance laws, which assures every legal heir a part of the estate.

After this verdict by the Bundesgerichtshof the present head of the House, Prince Georg Friedrich, remained the head indeed, notwithstanding the fact that he is by no means the most senior agnate at all and that according "modern idea" Standesgemäß marriages are rubbish and that these Hohenzollerns who violated the Hausgesetz should be in line of succession too. This shows that the Justices still attach importance to legal documents from before 1918, even though there is no longer an existing monarchy.

The most senior male Hohenzollern, the Evangelic Vicar Prince Philipp Kirill von Hohenzollern (* 1968) can -like King Michael- take a pen and paper, call himself the Chef des Hauses and place his six children with Mrs Anna Soltau in line of the Prussian succession, but this is not how it works. The Bundesgerichtshof was clear that House rules are in force as long as no legal rights are infringed. So Cory is right: a King in exile can not just change everything to his own whims.

[Andy T]

The trouble with royalist groups and associations in former monarchies is that they seem to grow too big for their boots and have delusions that they somehow can decree what should happen in the event of a restoration. More often than not they give monarchism a bad name with their factions, bitching and back-biting.

Ironically, if a restoration does ever occur - in Romania or anywhere else - it will be (i) because enough influential politicians & opinion-makers see the interest (for them!) in it and (ii) because Joe/Jo Public 'decides' (is persuaded) that it's what s/he wants.
This is what happened in France in 1852 (and almost in 1872-3), in Greece in 1935 and in Spain in 1975.

If the Romanian public at large were asked to choose between HRH Princess Margareta of Romania, Mr. Nicholas Medforth-Mills and Herr Karl Friedrich Prinz von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen as their restored Monarch, I wonder whom they would vote for?

[Cory]

Mr Medforth Mills has many supporters without any doubt.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Andy T

The trouble with royalist groups and associations in former monarchies is that they seem to grow too big for their boots and have delusions that they somehow can decree what should happen in the event of a restoration. More often than not they give monarchism a bad name with their factions, bitching and back-biting.

Ironically, if a restoration does ever occur - in Romania or anywhere else - it will be (i) because enough influential politicians & opinion-makers see the interest (for them!) in it and (ii) because Joe/Jo Public 'decides' (is persuaded) that it's what s/he wants.
This is what happened in France in 1852 (and almost in 1872-3), in Greece in 1935 and in Spain in 1975.

If the Romanian public at large were asked to chose between HRH Princess Margareta of Romania, Mr. Nicholas Medforth-Mills and Herr Karl Friedrich Prinz von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen as their restored Monarch, I wonder whom they would vote for?

Do you speak about HH Prince Karl of Hohenzollern?

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Andy T

[...]
If the Romanian public at large were asked to choose between HRH Princess Margareta of Romania, Mr. Nicholas Medforth-Mills and Herr Karl Friedrich Prinz von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen as their restored Monarch, I wonder whom they would vote for?

I have the idea the average man in the street in Brasov, Timisoara or Constanta, not so interested in royalty and busy with daily survival, will look to you with a confused face and say "Huh...? Midforth? Hohenzollern?"



By the way it is not Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen. When in 1869 the branch Hohenzollern-Hechingen became extinct, there is one fürstliche House left and they all have the name Hohenzollern: the need to designate in branches has disappeared.

[Andy T]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

I have the idea the average man in the street in Brasov, Timisoara or Constanta, not so interested in royalty and busy with daily survival, will look to you with a confused face and say "Huh...? Midforth? Hohenzollern?"



By the way it is not Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen. When in 1869 the branch Hohenzollern-Hechingen became extinct, there is one fürstliche House left and they all have the name Hohenzollern: the need to designate in branches has disappeared.

I think you're probably right!

Do you think the names Principele Nicolae and Principele Carol (Hohenzollern) would be more familiar/recognisable to the average citizen of Romania?

[Cory]

Do not forget there is not a royalist majority in the country.
A lot of people would not really know the nowadays Hohenzollerns but they heard about Mr Medforth Mills.

[RomanianRoyality]

Originally Posted by Cory

Do not forget there is not a royalist majority in the country.
A lot of people would not really know the nowadays Hohenzollerns but they heard about Mr Medforth Mills.

I strongly disagree. Romanians are aware of their Kings and dinasty who creates the Greater Romania

Sent from my ASUS_Z00ED using Tapatalk

[Cory]

How many Romanians would know who HH Prince Karl pf Hohenzollern is?