Succession to the Romanian Throne, Part 1

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

I don't know if you are a monarchist or not but you seem to favour running for Karina Medforth-Mills from the UK or running for Elisabeth Biarneix from France, two total commoners to become Queen of Romania than for the Princes of Hohenzollern (like King Michael, like his daughters), royal dynasts, who were in line of succession until only seven years ago according the michaelist view or still are in line of succession according the constitutional view.

It is the same as saying in 1975: Spain has not had a King for so long, the royal Constitution was so long ago. We should go for Sandra Torlonia or her brother Marco Torlonia to become Queen resp. King of Spain, after all Doña Beatriz is senior above Don Juan (the grandfather of the current King). All this changing-how-the-wind-blows is deadly for any monarchical aspiration.

I have made it clear who I support, and how I think the process will go, and you just proved my point.
In Spain, the heir was bypassed in favour of Juan Carlos. I believe the same will happen in Romania.
The 2 Princesses ahead of Nicholas will be bypassed in favour of him, because it is the most viable solution with regards to the future. When you in essence create a new monarchy out of the ashes of a republic, it is quite common to make a choice from the existing RF, if there is one, and begin a new line. Don Juan Carlos is a prime example of just that.

[Cory]

Miss Medforth Mills and Miss Biarneix are not Princesses.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Cory

Miss Medforth Mills and Miss Biarneix are not Princesses.

The princesses being referred to are Princesses Margarita and Helen.

[Cory]

After what happened in august I really doubt Mr Medforth Mills will ever be envolved again in any activity in Romania of the King's Family.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Ocean80

I have made it clear who I support, and how I think the process will go, and you just proved my point.
In Spain, the heir was bypassed in favour of Juan Carlos. I believe the same will happen in Romania.
The 2 Princesses ahead of Nicholas will be bypassed in favour of him, because it is the most viable solution with regards to the future. When you in essence create a new monarchy out of the ashes of a republic, it is quite common to make a choice from the existing RF, if there is one, and begin a new line. Don Juan Carlos is a prime example of just that.

In Spain it was a non democratic regime in 1975 not like nowadays Romania. It can't be a comparison between the two situations and anyhow in Spain the son of the Pretender became King while in Romania the Hohenzollerns represent the traditional Line.

[Cory]

HSH Prince Ferdinand is the fourth in the Line of Succession according to the Constitution of 1923:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXFC1dkRsio&sns=fb

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Blog Real

Would not it be better Nicolae again become crown prince of Romania and his son also have a place in line?

He was "just" the Number 3 in the changed line of succession and he had no any place ay all in the line of succession according to the last royal Constitution:

The new line of succession:

- HM King Michael of Romania (1921)
Son of King Carol II of Romania and Princess Helena of Greece and Denmark

1 HRH Princess Margareta of Romania (1949)
Daughter of King Michael of Romania and Princess Anne de Bourbon de Parme

2 HRH Princess Elena of Romania (1950)
Daughter of King Michael of Romania and Princess Anne de Bourbon de Parme

- Mr Nicholas Medforth-Mills (1985)
Son of Robert Medforth-Mills and Princess Elena of Romania

3 Miss Karina Medforth-Mills (1989)
Daughter of Robert Medforth-Mills and Princess Elena of Romania

4 HRH Princess Sophia of Romania (1957)
Daughter of King Michael of Romania and Princess Anne de Bourbon de Parme

5 Miss Elisabeth Biarneix (1998)
Daughter of Alain Biarneix and Princess Sophia of Romania

6 HRH Princess Maria of Romania (1964)
Daughter of King Michael of Romania and Princess Anne de Bourbon de Parme


The constitutional line of succession:

- HM King Michael of Romania, Prince von Hohenzollern (1921)
Son of King Carol II of Romania and Princess Helena of Greece and Denmark

1 HH Prince Karl Friedrich, Fürst von Hohenzollern (1952)
Son of Prince Friedrich Wilhelm, Fürst von Hohenzollern and Princess Margarita von Leiningen

2 HH Prince Alexander, Erbprinz von Hohenzollern (1987)
Son of Prince Karl Friedrich, Fürst von Hohenzollern and Alexandra Schenck Gräfin von Stauffenberg

3 HH Prince Albrecht von Hohenzollern (1954)
Son of Prince Friedrich Wilhelm, Fürst von Hohenzollern and Princess Margarita von Leiningen

[wartenberg7]

Thank you, Duc! We were almost in urgent danger to forget about your "constitutional" line of succession....

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by wartenberg7

Thank you, Duc! We were almost in urgent danger to forget about your "constitutional" line of succession....

Well, everyone is free to invent his/her own line of succession, of course. The base on which a certain gentleman named Michael von Hohenzollern has been a head of state twice, in a parliamentary democracy named Romania, was exactly because of that very "constitutional" (your quotation marks) line of succession...

Because of the positions this Michael von Hohenzollern twice held on base of that Constitution, the post 1989 Romanian democratic Government made a settlement concerning his status and the former properties of his House. So I would be a bit more careful by acting as if that Constitution is something to wipe someone's derrière with... I am sure that Michael himself -in hindsight- probably feels he has handled these matters a but to quick indeed.

[Cory]

Hard to know what the King really feels about this complex situation.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Cory

Hard to know what the King really feels about this complex situation.

That is the big question mark indeed. But since HRH Prince Nicolae of Romania has become Nicholas Medforth-Mills again, no new steps have been taken.

His sister Karina has not become HRH Princess Elisabeta-Karina of Romania. His cousine Elisabeth Biarneix has not become HRH Princess Elisabeta-Maria of Romania. None of both ladies have been seen in Romania since his demise and none have taken up a more formal role in the Royal House and it's public outings. So, what is now the plan of the former King? In hindsight it is a complete mess.



We already know about the mess around Princess Irina and her children. But even the father of Elisabeth Biarneix seems a fraud and an imposter. On RootsWeb an author on the House of Habsburg, Dan Willis, wrote:

Alain Biarneix appeared on the scene several years ago claiming to be Michel de Habsbourg and claimed to be a a member of a junior line of the Austian Imperial family. Archduke Otto's attorney's contacted him and advised him to stop spreading the lie as it was apparent that he was not a family member.

He then started saying he was an illegitimate Habsburg. This still did not hold up and he never specifically stated which Habsburg was his father.

He was finally sued on grounds of false impersonation and was forced to give up the Habsbourg name as he was clearly no relation to them. It was then that he chose the name "de Laufenborg" which still has Habsburg connections from the 14th/15th centuries.

He sucessfully wooed and married Princess Sophie of Roumania against her family's approval. In fact her father took the extra-ordinary step of stripping his daughter of her title for marrying the faker.

Daniel A. Willis
author, The House of Habsburg
ISBN 978-0-806346-44-2

[CyrilVladisla]

Is Prince Albrecht of Hohenzollern (born 1954) still in line to the throne?

[Cory]

It is very unclear if the Family has any strategy for the future of the Dynasty.

[Cory]

Yes,of course. Why not?

[NotHRH]

Originally Posted by Cory

It is very unclear if the Family has any strategy for the future of the Dynasty.

Strategy for what dynasty?

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by wartenberg7

Thank you, Duc! We were almost in urgent danger to forget about your "constitutional" line of succession....

There is no constitutional line of succession to an abolished throne, in an abolished constitution, that hasn't had legal force for 70 years. There is however, a former King, Queen and Royal Family of Romania, whom it is logical to assume a restored throne would be based from. To repeatedly point to a long-abolished line of succession, rejected by the very heirs that used to be in it (the Hohenzollerns), serves no purpose whatsoever.

As seems clear from the current dynastic confusion in Romania, decisions will have to be made as to a proposed and supported succession, both to the throne and equally as important, as to the headship of the Royal Family itself after the Crown Princess.

To repeatedly claim that the King has usurped any legal process by signing a document legitimizing his will for the succession after his own demise, is both tedious and wrong. He has never claimed to be anything but a former King, and head of the Royal Family. His authority is restricted to expressing his wish, as the document says, 'for Parliament to consider in the event of a restoration'.

Why the King and his motives continues to be questioned when all he has done is attempt to ensure the continuation of his dynasty, continues to elude me. The same can be said for the incredibly naive worship of a long-dead constitution that will never be revived in its old form, to create a monarchy in Europe that prohibits women on the throne, and bypasses the entire Romanian Royal Family to find a suitable prince in Germany, just because the current Royal Family has its origin in the house of Hohenzollern.

Whatever will become of Nicholas Medforth-Mills, time will tell, but most Romanians with any interest in this issue, still believe he is the future for the Royal Family.

[Cory]

Because The King is a former Head of State his wishes are just wishes and the Succession remains according to the Laws at the end of Monarchy.

Obviously Mr Medforth Mills continues to be popular among many royalists.

[eya]

I believe that Nicolae is not over yet for the Monarchy in Romania. As things about the succession are cloudy and Nicolae staying popular for many royalists all can happen!

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by LadyRohan

There is no constitutional line of succession to an abolished throne, in an abolished constitution, that hasn't had legal force for 70 years. There is however, a former King, Queen and Royal Family of Romania, whom it is logical to assume a restored throne would be based from. To repeatedly point to a long-abolished line of succession, rejected by the very heirs that used to be in it (the Hohenzollerns), serves no purpose whatsoever.

[...]

Michael von Hohenzollern was head-of-state of the democratic and parliamentary state of Romania twice, under that very Constitution. In 1947 the Communists seized power and enforced the King to abdicate. Romania's Constitution was shoved aside and a Communist Constitution was implemented after the coup.

When the Communists felt in 1989, a new democratic and parliamentary state of Romania was established. The democratic Government acknowledged the illegal overturn of the last democratic head-of-state (Michael von Hohenzollern), acknowledged his position as former head-of-state (by providing him a residence, an office, etc.) and also compensated him for the illegal seizure and looting of the former royal possessions by the Communists.

They only could do that because they acknowledged that Michael von Hohenzollern was the rightful head of state, twice, on base of the last democratic Constitution. What you are implying is that this Constitution is null and void, that Michael von Hohenzollern can wipe his royal derrière with it and that he can fantasize his very own line of succession altogether.

That is all nice. But fact is that the last Constitution came veeeeery handy for Michael von Hohenzollern when he, a citizen with a Danish passport at that moment, claimed a status in Romania for him and his family. When it may be not so handy for some cases (the succession) then he quickly "forgets" the document he has solemnly sworn to maintain with all his royal powers. Jajajaja....

When a system, based on hereditary succession according established and approved rules, is ended, then a glass dome is placed over it. It is frozen in time. According the rules of that Constitution, the line of succession is so-and-so. Too bad for Michael but it is as it is. Everyone is free to support a royalist restoration in Romania and everyone is free to be loyal to the one and only ever legal binding document or be loyal to a paper which Michael von Hohenzollern once has fabricated and no one has seen, and has meen modified several times on pure unilateral and personal willpower and preferences. I assume you would have liked to see Nicholas Medforth-Mills as heir? Too bad. Grandpapa has kicked him out. You seem to support that. After all Michael can make his own succession rules you say, isn't it?

[LadyRohan]

I really don't know where this kind of writing comes from, or why it is acceptable to yourself, or this forum. I will not repeat the very unacceptable phrases used in this statement of yours, as has been done in many previous ones, but for someone who is keen on using proper titles in many other threads on these forums, it would be a good thing to do the same here.
There is no person in Romania named Michael von Hohenzollern.
The former king of Romania has a title, King, used for life by him on equal basis as any former head of state. As most monarchs, he carries no last name, but has adopted the suffix 'of Romania' for himself and his family, to make clear his allegiance to his nation. If you want to reduce him to an ordinart citizen not entitled to any respect for title or position, I guess you could call him Michael Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen. It would however be just as wrong, as he relinquished his princely title years ago.
If I met you and told you my name was Anne Anderson, née Hanson, would you call me Anne Hanson from there on?

It doesn't take much to be respectful to others, and in most cases and settings, it is assumed to come naturally. That you seem to struggle so with a former King being King, indicates an unbecoming, but seemingly rooted lack of respect for others.

When King Michael reigned in Romania, the old constitution was alive, not once has anything else been claimed. After the monarchy, and the old constitution, was abolished, the King has sought to keep with the times, and encourage parliament to adapt a new Romanian monarchy to modern times, ie by including women.

Wow. What an awful faux pas for a King to make.
It has no legality in the republic of Romania. For now, it only has standing within the family, and how the different members divide the work and tasks they undertake. We can all wish for roads to be taken in different ways onwards, but since you've made it clear you don't believe in or wish for a restoration of the Romanian monarchy, I struggle to find any other motive for the denegrating that keeps on coming towards the former King and his family, than to sabotage the monarchical cause or prospects for the monarchy in Romania.

This thread is about Nicholas, the Kings grandson, who was seen as the future of the monarchy in Romania, and whos fate many struggle to understand. Without knowing why he was removed from the proposed line of succession in Romania, I disagree with the call. Maybe it was the right decision, but I and most others don't know enough to agree with it. As I've written many times, he still might become King of Romania if the monarchy is restored, because parliament and the people will decide in the end, when and if that time comes. That does not negate the Kings ability to write documents as head of the Romanian Royal Family, for parliament to consider, AT the time of a restoration.

For him not to do anything, would indicate that the Royal Family is not interested in a future in Romania. That would be far more incendiary and reckless. Until then, to those who oppose him or anything he does, he can always be attacked. If someone finds that so very necessary to do, at least do it with a tinge of respect for the position, and a touch of humility that there are other factors at play than your own deadlocked views of the Romanian King.