Succession to the Romanian Throne, Part 1

[JR76]

One could always add, although it is with hesitation, knowing the debate it always causes, that the House of Hohenzollern relinquished their rights to the Romanian throne as late as 2008. The princely house of Hohenzollern has thus made it very clear that Romania and the house of Hohenzollern parted ways centuries ago, and despite being from the same lineage, the two entities are distinct now.

If an heir to a restored Romania throne were to be sought outside of the Romanian Royal Family at a time of restoration, it might be that the house of Hohenzollern is asked to provide an heir again, but as long as there is a Royal Family in Romania, willing to serve and able to communicate and connect with the Romanians, it is logical to assume that a dynastic restoration would start from the RF.

Which member(s)? Only time can tell, but to claim that the only 'legal' way to restore a monarchy in Romania is to restore a long-gone constitution is on par with believeing that only 3/5 of black people in America should be counted as citizens, as the American constitution originally said in its 13th amendment, or that one can be stoned to death if wearing clothes made from two different fabrics, as it says in the Bible, Leviticus 19:19.

Time's change, laws, rules and principles adjust to be relevant and a monarchy most of all, banging its head into the wall of democracy as it does, must live in the now to continue to exist. To bang on about a dead constitution and a line of succession rejected by the foreign house once in it, just serves to undermine the monarchical cause, in Romania as well as in other states where a restoration is possible.

When the house of Hohenzollern made it clear that they do not wish to claim rights to the Romanian throne, and King Michael thereafter wrote a proposed new line of succession for parliament to consider should they wish to restore the monarchy, it seems to me that things were done correctly by the dynastic members of both the house of Hohenzollern and the Romanian RF. It therefore follows that any future Romanian monarch will come from the RF, unless something unforeseen happens, and that is where it stands.

As always the one voice of reason in this ongoing Romanian mess.


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[Jacknch]

I remember we came to this conclusion two or three times before - if the monarchy is restored in Romania, such restoration will be based upon a brand new constitution (as opposed to any previous constitution) and the monarch will either King Michael or one of his heirs.

All that would be needed now is a referendum

 

[Chubb Fuddler]

All that would be needed now is a referendum

That would be 2 referendums. Article 152 of the Constitution of Romania states that the republican form of government "shall not be subject to revision." So that would have to be amended before a referendum on the monarchy could be held.

 

[Cory]

The Parliament will decide in case of the Restoration of Monarchy to ask the Hohenzollerns to accept the Crown or to look for another solution.

 

[Andy T]

The Parliament will decide in case of the Restoration of Monarchy to ask the Hohenzollerns to accept the Crown or to look for another solution.

I would express it differently: ."....to ask King Michael to accept the Crown or to look for another solution."

 

[Cory]

It is very unlikely the King will be still able to accept the Crown the restoration would not be possible very soon. His proposal of Succession has no constitutional vonsequences so the Succession ofvthe Hohenzollerns is automatic unless they refuse it.

 

[MAfan]

Do you really think that the Romanian republican Parliament will just unquestioningly ad uncritically follow what the abrogated 1923 Constitution stated about the succession, when (and if) it should chose the new King?
Isn't it practically a bit unlikely?

 

[Cory]

They would certainly believe a Prince of Hohenzollern could be a more neutral Head of State that the wife of a man who wanted to candidate to become the president of the republic.

 

[Andy T]

It is very unlikely the King will be still able to accept the Crown the restoration would not be possible very soon. His proposal of Succession has no constitutional vonsequences so the Succession ofvthe Hohenzollerns is automatic unless they refuse it.

No, it is not automatic and here's why:

For anyone - King Michael, his family or the Hohenzollerns - to be offered the throne, a new constitution reinstating the monarchy would have had to be approved beforehand: you cannot offer anyone a throne that doesn't exist.

The throne would be offered to the person designated by the new constitution, according to the rules laid out in that new constitution. In effect, whoever is chosen, a new monarchy will be instated because the old one was abolished. This is essentially what happened in Spain, when the Count of Barcelona was bypassed in favour of King Juan Carlos I.

 

[Cory]

Bypassed but than gave up on favour of his son who was next in line. In the Romania case Prince Karl could be bypassed too in favour of other Prince of Hohenzollern if the House of Hohenzollern and the Parliament agrees.

 

[Andy T]

Bypassed but than gave up on favour of his son who was next in line. In the Romania case Prince Karl could be bypassed too in favour of other Prince of Hohenzollern if the House of Hohenzollern and the Parliament agrees.

He could be: new constitution, new rules! Then again, maybe the Hohenzollerns wouldn't be considered by Parliament at all.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Two things are mixed here: a restoration and the line of succession.

In case of a restoration of the monarchy, a most unlikely event, the Romanians will decide and then also the rules of the game (like the succession) will be set. That is one. I agree with all posters who say that nothing is automatic. Not for Miss Medforth Mills, not for Miss Biarneix but also not for the Fürst von Hohenzollern or his son Prince Alexander.

Then comes two: the line of succession. This is the big division here. A group on this forum thinks that the succession can be unilaterally changed, totally to King Michael's daily whims. He can decide to add Princess Irina, Michael Torsten, Kohen Torsten, Angelica Knight, Courtney Knight and Diana Knight. With one scratch from his pen he can remove them again. Scccrrrrrrrrrraaaatchhhhh, there they went, out of the window, all of them...! With the same pen he can simply remove Nicholas Medforth-Mills. Just for his daily whims. Bam! He has been added to the line of succession. Bam! He gets a title and the prefix HRH. Bam! He is removed again. Bam! He has lost his title and prefix. Byeeee.

And then there is another group on this forum which has a more legalistic view. Until 8 years ago simply the Constitution of 1923 was followed. For more than 60 years the very same King Michael followed the Constitution. With the usual stance: when a monarchy has become defunct, the situation is frozen, as there is no legal Government and no legal Parliament to change it. This second group on this forum questions King Michael's right to "regulate" the succession depending to the mood of the day.

This second group sees the monarchal system always part of, and embedded in, a legal system with checks and balances. The first group accepts a dictatorship: The Great Michael Has Spoken, And So Will Be Done.

That is all. In my personal opinion King Michael had no right to decide unilaterally. Had he done it in close consultation with the Fürst von Hohenzollern and Prince Alexander, solemnly signed and added with the Grand Seal of both, okay... then we can say that all parties involved in the succession to the defunct throne have agreed on a new settlement. But here it is all one-sided. That is the real problem.

 

[Cory]

Even a Royal Family does not reign anymore the rules of Succession remain and the Succession is automatic. Those that are against the Succession of the Hohenzollerns deny all the Romanian royal tradition, all the Romanian royal Constitution.

 

[Cory]

Two things are mixed here: a restoration and the line of succession.

In case of a restoration of the monarchy, a most unlikely event, the Romanians will decide and then also the rules of the game (like the succession) will be set. That is one. I agree with all posters who say that nothing is automatic. Not for Miss Medforth Mills, not for Miss Biarneix but also not for the Fürst von Hohenzollern or his son Prince Alexander.

Then comes two: the line of succession. This is the big division here. A group on this forum thinks that the succession can be unilaterally changed, totally to King Michael's daily whims. He can decide to add Princess Irina, Michael Torsten, Kohen Torsten, Angelica Knight, Courtney Knight and Diana Knight. With one scratch from his pen he can remove them again. Scccrrrrrrrrrraaaatchhhhh, there they went, out of the window, all of them...! With the same pen he can simply remove Nicholas Medforth-Mills. Just for his daily whims. Bam! He has been added to the line of succession. Bam! He gets a title and the prefix HRH. Bam! He is removed again. Bam! He has lost his title and prefix. Byeeee.

And then there is another group on this forum which has a more legalistic view. Until 8 years ago simply the Constitution of 1923 was followed. For more than 60 years the very same King Michael followed the Constitution. With the usual stance: when a monarchy has become defunct, the situation is frozen, as there is no legal Government and no legal Parliament to change it. This second group on this forum questions King Michael's right to "regulate" the succession depending to the mood of the day.

This second group sees the monarchal system always part of, and embedded in, a legal system with checks and balances. The first group accepts a dictatorship: The Great Michael Has Spoken, And So Will Be Done.

That is all. In my personal opinion King Michael had no right to decide unilaterally. Had he done it in close consultation with the Fürst von Hohenzollern and Prince Alexander, solemnly signed and added with the Grand Seal of both, okay... then we can say that all parties involved in the succession to the defunct throne have agreed on a new settlement. But here it is all one-sided. That is the real problem.

The Hohenzollerns had no dialogue with the King regarding the Succession in 2007.

 

[LadyRohan]

Even a Royal Family does not reign anymore the rules of Succession remain and the Succession is automatic. Those that are against the Succession of the Hohenzollerns deny all the Romanian royal tradition, all the Romanian royal Constitution.

There is no succession to a throne that does not exist. There is therefore no automatic succession to an abolished throne. If Romania had been a monarchy continually and not had this period as a republic, the constitution would had been amended to allow female succession when it was clear the King would only have daughters. Ask anyone in Romanian politics or civil life that question, and they will all confirm it.
If the monarchy is restored, it is therefore illogical to assume, and almost demand, that every member of the Royal Family be bypassed, in favour of a member of the Hohenzollern house, just because they were in the line of succession in 1947, when the monarchy was abolished.

There is a Royal Family in Romania, with enough members in it, active and engaged in Romanian civic and social life to be a basis for a revived monarchy. When they have clearly stated their willingness to serve Romania in whatever capacity the nation wants, and when the Hohenzollerns equally made it clear many years ago that they have no interest in the Romanian throne, that really is undeniably clear.

If the Royal Family did not want to return to the throne, it would make sense to look to the historical lines of succession and family to find a potential heir to ask. But here's the thing: In order for the question to even be asked, in order for people to care and politicians to address the issue, someone has to draw reasonable attention to the issue.

Only the Romanian Royal Family does that, for good, bad and everything in between.

 

[LadyRohan]

The Hohenzollerns had no dialogue with the King regarding the Succession in 2007.

if you have evidence to support that statement, please provide it. Otherwise it is just an unsubstantiated claim, countered by the facts. The head of the Hohenzollern answered the question of Romania before the King drew up a new suggested line of succession, in case of a restoration, where, again, he made it clear the Hohenzollerns had no interest in the Romanian throne, after that, it was logical for the King to sever formal ties with the princely house, and make it clear the Royal Family was from, for and of Romania.

 

[Cory]

There is no succession to a throne that does not exist. There is therefore no automatic succession to an abolished throne. If Romania had been a monarchy continually and not had this period as a republic, the constitution would had been amended to allow female succession when it was clear the King would only have daughters. Ask anyone in Romanian politics or civil life that question, and they will all confirm it.
If the monarchy is restored, it is therefore illogical to assume, and almost demand, that every member of the Royal Family be bypassed, in favour of a member of the Hohenzollern house, just because they were in the line of succession in 1947, when the monarchy was abolished.

There is a Royal Family in Romania, with enough members in it, active and engaged in Romanian civic and social life to be a basis for a revived monarchy. When they have clearly stated their willingness to serve Romania in whatever capacity the nation wants, and when the Hohenzollerns equally made it clear many years ago that they have no interest in the Romanian throne, that really is undeniably clear.

If the Royal Family did not want to return to the throne, it would make sense to look to the historical lines of succession and family to find a potential heir to ask. But here's the thing: In order for the question to even be asked, in order for people to care and politicians to address the issue, someone has to draw reasonable attention to the issue.

Only the Romanian Royal Family does that, for good, bad and everything in between.

The Romanian royalist politicians met the King different times after 1990 in order to convince him to have a dialogue withthe Hohenzollerns or to adopt his grandson Nicholas.

The Succession is to the dynastic rights is automatic and is accrding to the 1947 rules because no Parliament could decide to change them in meantime.

Regarding the descendants of the King both his grandaughters do not live in the country and do not see to have too much interest in it either.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...]
There is a Royal Family in Romania, with enough members in it, active and engaged in Romanian civic and social life to be a basis for a revived monarchy.
[...]

Enough members? Active? Engaged? It is Radu with Margaretha. So now and then assisted by Maria. That is it.

The King
lives outside Romania

The Queen
lives outside Romania

Princess Margareta
does some activities

Radu Duda
the most active member of all

Princess Elena
lives outside Romania

Nicholas Medforth-Mills
is no member of the Royal House

Karina Medforth-Mills
lives outside Romania

Princess Irina
is no member of the Royal House

Michael Kreuger
is no member of the Royal House

Kohen Kreuger
is no member of the Royal House

Angelica Kreuger
is no member of the Royal House

Courtney Knight
is no member of the Royal House

Bianca Knight
is no member of the Royal House

Princess Sophie
lives outside Romania

Elisabeth Biarneix
lives outside Romania

Princess Maria
has some public appearances in Romania

 

[Cory]

The Kreugers, the Knights, Miss Medforth Mills and Miss Biarneix have never been members of the Royal Family anyhow.
Michael Kreuger's son and Angelica Kreuger Knight's daughers have never been mentioned even in the proposed line of succession desired by the Elisabeta Palace.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The Kreugers, the Knights, Miss Medforth Mills and Miss Biarneix have never been members of the Royal Family anyhow.
Michael Kreuger's son and Angelica Kreuger Knight's daughers have never been mentioned even in the proposed line of succession desired by the Elisabeta Palace.

Yes but I was more thinking about "the Royal House" not about the succession. For a comparison: Princess Philippa, Princess Flaminia and Princesa Antonia are in no any line of succession but are very much members of the House of Hohenzollern as their brother Prince Alexander. Like Radu Duda is a member of the House of Romania without having succession rights.

 

[Cory]

The last members of the Romanian Royal Family from the descendants of the King are the 4 Princesses.

 

[maria-olivia]

In a thread about Princess Margarthe of Denmark and Prince René of Bourbon Parme it was told that a Princess of Roumania has a relationship with former British Prime Minister Gordon Brown between 2007 and 2010 ?

Is that correct ? I never heard about that before.

 

[eya]

Yes is true. Here an old article about that

'Romantic. Beautiful. I fell madly in love' - Telegraph

The Romania has and have Royal Family. When and if monarchy restore the currently Royal Family there is the first option.

I agree JR76 just pure fantasy!

This constitution of 1923 did (i don't have read it)says something about the religion that should be the future king?

It says that the King has to be orthodox, but for some reason, some people here say that this should be ignored as being irrelevant in 2016, while those of us who advocate updating a line of succession to correspond with 2016, are ignorant of history.

Figure it out those who can

It says that should be Orthodox? But then should not ignore the constitution. But I imagine that if the Hohenzollerns accept the throne that can simply be changed and their religion.

 

[LadyRohan]

In a thread about Princess Margarthe of Denmark and Prince René of Bourbon Parme it was told that a Princess of Roumania has a relationship with former British Prime Minister Gordon Brown between 2007 and 2010 ?

Is that correct ? I never heard about that before.

The relationship took place in the late 70's, while they were both at university.

 

[Cory]

Here we speak about the Succession rights ofvthe House of Hohenzollerns not about the love affairs of a Princess.

 

[LadyRohan]

Here we speak about the Succession rights ofvthe House of Hohenzollerns not about the love affairs of a Princess.

This thread is about the succession to the Romanian throne. It is not singled out as a propaganda-thread for the Princely House of Hohenzollern.

To ask, and answer, a question about the Crown Princess of Romania, in one sentence, probably does not wreak havoc on the thread. It could instead lead to amusing thinking around whether the Romanian heiress would be married to someone who became PM in Britain now, and what that would had done for the question of succession.

 

[NotHRH]

This thread is about the succession to the Romanian throne. It is not singled out as a propaganda-thread for the Princely House of Hohenzollern.

To ask, and answer, a question about the Crown Princess of Romania, in one sentence, probably does not wreak havoc on the thread. It could instead lead to amusing thinking around whether the Romanian heiress would be married to someone who became PM in Britain now, and what that would had done for the question of succession.

Romania does not have an heiress as they have an ex-royal family. It has been stated that when the ex-king served as one of country's prime ministers, the ex-royal family of Romania validated that Romania is now a republic. C'est la vie!

 

[Cris M]

Romania does not have an heiress as they have an ex-royal family. It has been stated that when the ex-king served as one of country's prime ministers, the ex-royal family of Romania validated that Romania is now a republic. C'est la vie!

The King of Romania was never Prime Minister. It was the King of the Bulgarians who served as Prime Minister of his country.

The King of Romania was deposed by a Communist coup d'état in 1947, and he never validated that Romania is now a Republic.

 

[Lee-Z]

Romania does not have an heiress as they have an ex-royal family. It has been stated that when the ex-king served as one of country's prime ministers, the ex-royal family of Romania validated that Romania is now a republic. C'est la vie!

Like Cris M said, you're mixing up Romania and Bulgaria here..

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Romania does not have an heiress as they have an ex-royal family. It has been stated that when the ex-king served as one of country's prime ministers, the ex-royal family of Romania validated that Romania is now a republic. C'est la vie!

Romania does not have an heiress, but the House of Romania does.

Princess Margareta is, according her father, the Heiress to the current head of the House of Romania.

Prince Alexander is the Heir to his father, the Fürst von Hohenzollern, the current head of the House of Hohenzollern.

Lord Henry Miles Fitzalan-Howard is the Heir to his father, the Duke of Norfolk, the current head of the House of Norfolk.

Don Fernando Juan Fitz-James Stuart y de Solís is the Heir to his father, the Duke of Alba, the current head of the House of Alba.

Etc.