Romanian Succession, Claimants, Titles and Restoration

[Cory]

How many pro ? Source ?

But then comes the campaign. And debates. And then the arguments come. The will of the people or the womb of the sister to the current head of the former royal family? Bring Romania forth in the 21st C or back to the 19th C? Choose the candidate who you thinks best or wait for the sister of the current head "making" her own Swiss-born British son a "successor" (again).

My advice is: the former royal family better accepts the current situation as the best they can achieve. A divisive Referendum will only harm their position. They will never win it. Du moment that a royal becomes partisan, his/her case is lost. Ask Simeon von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha, whom blew up all his chances by his own hand.

Which source?The last polls of few days ago:

https://www.dcnews.ro/mobile/sondaj-avangarde-despre-monarhie-procentele-momentului_577834.html

 

[LadyRohan]

I would not mind when my country becomes a republic,[...].

We know, monsieur le Duc, we know

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

We know, monsieur le Duc, we know

I am not advocating it. Like the overwhelming majority of the Dutch we take the monarchy as a fact of life, like a pimple on someone's butt. It is there. Okay.

I make no any illusions about the mindset of the average Dutchie in the street regarding the monarchy. Let us say so: not for nothing the lawmaker was so wise to specifically declare the monarchy as "non-referendable"...


The situation as it is in Romania today is -in my eyes- the best of two worlds.

 

[Cory]

The situation in Romania is sad. A republic based on a corrupted system whose people prefer to leave the country than to have to witness injustice. What can be seen as " the best" in this republic that lacks legitimacy?
The republican establishment changed its strategy regarding the descendants of the late Royal Family and tried to convince some of them to attend public events organised by the republic in order to silence the desire of the monarchists asking for a restoration.

 

[LadyRohan]

I am not advocating it. Like the overwhelming majority of the Dutch we take the monarchy as a fact of life, like a pimple on someone's butt. It is there. Okay.

I make no any illusions about the mindset of the average Dutchie in the street regarding the monarchy. Let us say so: not for nothing the lawmaker was so wise to specifically declare the monarchy as "non-referendable"...


The situation as it is in Romania today is -in my eyes- the best of two worlds.

As someone who doesn't really see the virtue of electing a ceremonial leader without real political power anyway, as in constitutional monarchies, I don't agree, but I do see your side of the argument certainly. In my view it simply is preferable to have a ceremonial leader who is trained to do the job and fill the role expected, instead of elevating people who often time corrupt their way to the top etc etc.

As you also point out, the direction Romania is going in at the moment is a triumph in itself for the Royal Family and the memory of His late Majesty, by the RF becoming a more formalized and integral part of institutional life in Romania. If it doesn't lead to a full-scale 'restoration' in the end, it is certainly a better situation for all involved than the more or less completely exclusion of other former royal families from their native lands. It is for sure a situation that the royal dynasties of Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Afghanistan, Russia, Portugal, Austria, Italy, Iraq, Iran, Laos, Vietnam, China, Korea, Ethiopia, France, Georgia, Brazil, Mexico und so weiter, und so weiter can only dream of.

 

[Frozen Royalist]

Still even if there is a referendum I think there will be a problem with choosing between the now known as House of Romania or Nicholas Medforth-Mills, considering how popular both he and the now deceased King Michael I's oldest daughter are. I don't think Prince Charles would work because, well, he's supposed to become the king of the United Kingdom and the British Commonwealth Realms as we all all know.

Like it or not I honestly believe that the Romanian people, the Romanian parliament at least, are going to have to:

a. Declare the House of Romania as the royal family of the Restored Kingdom of Romania.

b. Establish the House of Medforth-Mills as the new royal family of Romania.

c. Find a new dynasty entirely with little to no relation to the House of Romania/Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen.

d. Or not have a referendum/restoration at all.

I do think that Romania can be accomplished in terms of monarchy restoration along with a couple other nations in my opinion. But the problem is that Romanian monarchists are starting to become divided like French monarchists in my opinion. What a mess.

-Frozen Royalist

 

[Cory]

Still even if there is a referendum I think there will be a problem with choosing between the now known as House of Romania or Nicholas Medforth-Mills, considering how popular both he and the now deceased King Michael I's oldest daughter are. I don't think Prince Charles would work because, well, he's supposed to become the king of the United Kingdom and the British Commonwealth Realms as we all all know.

Like it or not I honestly believe that the Romanian people, the Romanian parliament at least, are going to have to:

a. Declare the House of Romania as the royal family of the Restored Kingdom of Romania.

b. Establish the House of Medforth-Mills as the new royal family of Romania.

c. Find a new dynasty entirely with little to no relation to the House of Romania/Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen.

d. Or not have a referendum/restoration at all.

I do think that Romania can be accomplished in terms of monarchy restoration along with a couple other nations in my opinion. But the problem is that Romanian monarchists are starting to become divided like French monarchists in my opinion. What a mess.

-Frozen Royalist

For the moment there is no debate in the Parliament on such issues.
There is not such a thing like the House of Medforth Mills.

 

[LadyRohan]

Still even if there is a referendum I think there will be a problem with choosing between the now known as House of Romania or Nicholas Medforth-Mills, considering how popular both he and the now deceased King Michael I's oldest daughter are. I don't think Prince Charles would work because, well, he's supposed to become the king of the United Kingdom and the British Commonwealth Realms as we all all know.

Like it or not I honestly believe that the Romanian people, the Romanian parliament at least, are going to have to:

a. Declare the House of Romania as the royal family of the Restored Kingdom of Romania.

b. Establish the House of Medforth-Mills as the new royal family of Romania.

c. Find a new dynasty entirely with little to no relation to the House of Romania/Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen.

d. Or not have a referendum/restoration at all.

I do think that Romania can be accomplished in terms of monarchy restoration along with a couple other nations in my opinion. But the problem is that Romanian monarchists are starting to become divided like French monarchists in my opinion. What a mess.

-Frozen Royalist

The House of Romania is already the recognized Royal Family in Romania, and no other avenue is realistic or spoken of in serious political circles. If Nicholas is included into a proposed line of succession, it won't create a new Royal House of Medforth-Mills (*giggle*), but will be a strict continuation of the Royal Family itself, to which Nicholas has always belonged.

 

[Cory]

Still even if there is a referendum I think there will be a problem with choosing between the now known as House of Romania or Nicholas Medforth-Mills, considering how popular both he and the now deceased King Michael I's oldest daughter are. I don't think Prince Charles would work because, well, he's supposed to become the king of the United Kingdom and the British Commonwealth Realms as we all all know.

Like it or not I honestly believe that the Romanian people, the Romanian parliament at least, are going to have to:

a. Declare the House of Romania as the royal family of the Restored Kingdom of Romania.

b. Establish the House of Medforth-Mills as the new royal family of Romania.

c. Find a new dynasty entirely with little to no relation to the House of Romania/Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen.

d. Or not have a referendum/restoration at all.

I do think that Romania can be accomplished in terms of monarchy restoration along with a couple other nations in my opinion. But the problem is that Romanian monarchists are starting to become divided like French monarchists in my opinion. What a mess.

-Frozen Royalist

The Romanian royalists are divided because of the different attempts to silence them and make them accept the republican establishment.

 

[JR76]

What kind of attempts and why have they led to the royalists becoming divided?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

We will see how it all unfold. It is still not an easy ride for Margareta. Look at the situation around Elisabeta Palace. In the emotional maelstrom of events after the passing of the King one would think the goodwill and mood would be so sympathetic to the former Royal House that "of course" they could continue Elisabeta Palace etc. But on the contrary: it needed dealings behind the screens and Margareta has to pay rent now, etc. Still a great result but it shows she can not take anyting for granted. She still has to be on her qui-vive and be attentive to maintain her position in Romanian society.

 

[Cory]

What kind of attempts and why have they led to the royalists becoming divided?

Attempts made by the circles that do not respect the Constitution of 1923 and want a deal with the republic and not the restoration of Monarchy. The majority of royalists refused the compromises and continue their campaign for Monarchy.

 

[Andy T]

Still even if there is a referendum I think there will be a problem with choosing between the now known as House of Romania or Nicholas Medforth-Mills, considering how popular both he and the now deceased King Michael I's oldest daughter are. I don't think Prince Charles would work because, well, he's supposed to become the king of the United Kingdom and the British Commonwealth Realms as we all all know.

Like it or not I honestly believe that the Romanian people, the Romanian parliament at least, are going to have to:

a. Declare the House of Romania as the royal family of the Restored Kingdom of Romania.

b. Establish the House of Medforth-Mills as the new royal family of Romania.

c. Find a new dynasty entirely with little to no relation to the House of Romania/Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen.

d. Or not have a referendum/restoration at all.

I do think that Romania can be accomplished in terms of monarchy restoration along with a couple other nations in my opinion. But the problem is that Romanian monarchists are starting to become divided like French monarchists in my opinion. What a mess.

-Frozen Royalist

Any agenda to make people choose between the House of Romania and Nicholas will hopefully evaporate once the rift is healed. We have already seen steps taken in that direction and can reasonably expect a reconciliation as long as both parties are able to move forward. For Nichoas, this means settling his paternity case, and for the Royal house, reinstating him in the line of succession and reintegrating him into the familiy's activities. The Royal House can then present a united front and a clear line for the future.

The Hohenzollerns are dead ducks as far as the Romanian Monarchy is concerned and although the various monarchist cliques can cause damage and fuel conflict, they have absolutely no legal power or moral authority and ultimately no say in the matter and are best ignored - or at least sidelined as much as possible.

The Romanian Royal House is by far the one which is making real progress towards establishing a constitutional role for itself in a 21st Century Romania, and who knows, its labours may one day bear fruit in persuading the Romanians that a ceremonial monarchy is the preferable way forward.
They are right to maintain a distance from the motley collection of "royalists", especially those whose values are C19th (concerning gender equality and the role of Monarchy, for example) and instead focus on building on their considerable achievements in the last 25 years.

 

[Marengo]

This thread has been cleaned up & reopened.

 

[Cory]

As the last public events show there is no real reconciliation between Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills and his eldest aunt. They arrive separately, sit separately and almost avoid each other. The case in Switzerland was closed or continues? Any hope for a reconciliation in this family?
It us not known which is Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills opinion about his aunt's continuous dialogue with post-communist republican more or less controversial politicians to get special privileges from the state preserving the republic.

 

[Cory]

There are only 13 Princes of Hohenzollern in the legitimist Line of Succession to the Romanian Throne now. They do not officially give up their dynastic right but they don't publicly get involved in Romania either. Just planning the future opportunities?

 

[LadyRohan]

Any agenda to make people choose between the House of Romania and Nicholas will hopefully evaporate once the rift is healed. We have already seen steps taken in that direction and can reasonably expect a reconciliation as long as both parties are able to move forward. For Nichoas, this means settling his paternity case, and for the Royal house, reinstating him in the line of succession and reintegrating him into the familiy's activities. The Royal House can then present a united front and a clear line for the future.

The Hohenzollerns are dead ducks as far as the Romanian Monarchy is concerned and although the various monarchist cliques can cause damage and fuel conflict, they have absolutely no legal power or moral authority and ultimately no say in the matter and are best ignored - or at least sidelined as much as possible.

The Romanian Royal House is by far the one which is making real progress towards establishing a constitutional role for itself in a 21st Century Romania, and who knows, its labours may one day bear fruit in persuading the Romanians that a ceremonial monarchy is the preferable way forward.
They are right to maintain a distance from the motley collection of "royalists", especially those whose values are C19th (concerning gender equality and the role of Monarchy, for example) and instead focus on building on their considerable achievements in the last 25 years.

There are continuous small steps taken to re-establish the Royal Family as a viable alternative to the republic, and Nicholas de Roumanie and his wife re-locating to Bucharest earlier this month is a good step in that direction. Although there are five highborn princesses in the Royal Family, the Custodian knows very well that in order to secure the future for the House, the next generation has to be embraced and included at some point, and for all intents and purposes, that includes and encompasses Nicholas. The symbolic gestures of unity that we see these days in Romania are strengthening the narrative of the Royal Family coming together, and I am quite sure we will see more of those throughout this year.

In one way or another, hopefully with an ultimate change of governing system, Romania is by far the one former monarchy where we can realistically expect the Royal Family being restored to their rightful place, not mainly for their own sake, but for the sake of all Romanians, who deserve better governance, and stronger, more unifying institutions.

 

[Cory]

There is no desire to restore the Monarchy among the politicians but on the contrary to strengthen the republic.

 

[LadyRohan]

There is no desire to restore the Monarchy among the politicians but on the contrary to strengthen the republic.

That is the view you assign to them, not one they have themselves expressed. All ambitious politicians care much more about their own future and positioning than they do the system, and if a change could benefit them, they would support the change easily. With regards to a restoration, it's a matter of continuously building public support and making it clear to the politicians what people want. If that's clear, they will jump on that wagon quicker than you can say 'Hohenzollern won't happen', and the monarchy will be restored.

 

[Cory]

No political party in the Parliament supports Monarchy. In case of a bigger support for Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills there could really be a change but that's pure supposition.

 

[LadyRohan]

The change will come from the work the Royal Family does, which includes Nicholas, under the leadership of the Custodian. One piece doesn't exclude another, and nothing good comes from sowing seeds of discontent instead of advocating unity.

 

[Marengo]

You can continue this discussion in the thread dedicated to issues around Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills, here: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ussion-succession-paternity-claims-44223.html

 

[Cory]

Nobody can ask the monarchists to support titles that do not exist the the Romanian tradition and Lines of Succession contrary to all the Romanian royal Constitutions.
Why we respect succession laws in all countries but about Romania some deny the succession laws in place during the Monarchy?

 

[LadyRohan]

Nobody can ask the monarchists to support titles that do not exist the the Romanian tradition and Lines of Succession contrary to all the Romanian royal Constitutions.
Why we respect succession laws in all countries but about Romania some deny the succession laws in place during the Monarchy?

There are no succession laws in an abolished monarchy. There's realism, and you refuse to see that.
You don't simply refuse to acknowledge titles given by the King to his children, which is done in every monarchy, but because of their choices of partners, you choose to ignore those rights. Princesses born in a legal marriage between a King and a born Princess, remain princesses their lives through. You refuse to accept that, and call them 'daughters of the King', to denigrate their position from birth. If you don't accept their changed titles in life, at least accept what they're born as, or just admit to being a republican, because a princess is a princess, no matter what.

You just claimed that the future of the monarchy in Romania lies with Nicholas M-M in another thread, despite refusing to acknowledge the rights of his mother and aunts as legal heirs. A grandson being an heir without his parent being legal, is just beyond foolish.

What is the point of the continuous spam, where one post in one thread is contrary to your next post in another thread?

There is no royal constitution in Romania, and ancient constitutions are never reborn. Never have been in any country, never will be anywhere. Documents are living, breathing things that need to be relevant to the times they exist in, and no monarchy in Europe will exist anymore without succession that acknowledges women. That is why the Royal Family continues to carry influence in Romania, and is growing in stature. Hopefully, that leads to something positive along the way.

 

[Cory]

The daughters of a King of Romania remain Princesses and have also the surname of their husband. They do not have dynastic rights.
Titles given after 1947 and in contradiction to all the Royal Constitutions are invalid.

 

[LadyRohan]

The daughters of a King of Romania remain Princesses and have also the surname of their husband. They do not have dynastic rights.
Titles given after 1947 and in contradiction to all the Royal Constitutions are invalid.

Then call them princesses, and not 'daughters of the King', to reduce them in stature. That's what they are. The King had every right to ensure the survival of the Royal Family. Every monarch in the world does, and every monarch should. It's called being responsible.

Fighting against that, when only a few years ago you fully supported Margareta, is just contrary and against any chance of monarchical progress in Romania.

 

[Cory]

Strangely enough the King did not act in any way against the Constitution of 1923 before he was in his 80's.
A Dynasty can become extinct which is the case in Romania.
A constitutional monarch can't decide alone on the Succession and the King recognized that in 2007 too asking the Parliament in case of restoration to solve the issue.

 

[LadyRohan]

Strangely enough the King did not act in any way against the Constitution of 1923 before he was in his 80's.
A Dynasty can become extinct which is the case in Romania.
A constitutional monarch can't decide alone on the Succession and the King recognized that in 2007 too asking the Parliament in case of restoration to solve the issue.

He asked parliament to accept his wishes in the event of a restoration. Until an actual restoration, we therefore only have the Kings wishes to go on. One can choose to ignore them, but it's hard to call oneself a supporter of the King if one does.

 

[Cory]

The Parliament will decide to accept or not the proposals signed by the King in 2007.
The monarchists support the restoration of Monarchy.

 

[LadyRohan]

The Parliament will decide to accept or not the proposals signed by the King in 2007.
The monarchists support the restoration of Monarchy.

Which is exactly what most of us have said for years, and what you've fought against in every post on TRF. 'Parliament does not decide who the heirs are'. Well, yes, they will, in the case of a restoration, and it's wonderful that you've come around to share that view.