Restoration of the Monarchy in Romania

[Benjamin]

Yes, Fürst Karl was very interested indeed in cooperating with Paul and Lia Lambrino, who are now heavily investigated by the Romanian authorities for several serious crimes.

 

[Cory]

Furst Karl has nothing to do with the Lambrinos trials. He obviously did not want either his surname to be associated with the son of a Romanian left wing politician.

 

[Benjamin]

Furst Karl has nothing to do with the Lambrinos trials. He obviously did not want either his surname to be associated with the son of a Romanian left wing politician.

You are perhaps not informed of the matter to which I am referring. The then Erbprinz Karl was quite involved with the Lambrinos during the course of a drawn out legal case between Prince Radu and Royalty Magazine. It eventually was determined that many of the documents that the aforementioned trio had submitted to the court as evidence were in fact forgeries.

 

[Cory]

We are speaking here about the restoration of Monarchy not about the Lambrino family.
The cause of Monarchy was not certainly damaged by Furst Karl.

 

[LadyRohan]

The talent "monarchists" have to derail the progress of the monarchist cause is beyond competition...

Quite right, but looking at recent news, it's not a campaign that has a lot of traction so far, so one can only hope, from a monarchical perspective, that it won't cause too much damage.

 

[LadyRohan]

Furst Karl has nothing to do with the Lambrinos trials. He obviously did not want either his surname to be associated with the son of a Romanian left wing politician.

The father of Prince Radu is irrelevant for his title or position. What is the point of continually trying to drag this man down? The late Prince of Hohenzollern gave his assent to Prince Radu receiving the family name, back when that was an issue, so to rehash it constantly, serves no purpose whatsoever.

 

[Cory]

Quite right, but looking at recent news, it's not a campaign that has a lot of traction so far, so one can only hope, from a monarchical perspective, that it won't cause too much damage.

If you speak about those that declare themselves "royalists" but practically suppport the republic you are right.

 

[LadyRohan]

If you speak about those that declare themselves "royalists" but practically suppport the republic you are right.

The only ones supporting the republic are those pushing a negative campaign against the only ones seeking to restore the monarchy in Romania by doing practical work to increase its profile and stature, the Royal Family.

 

[Cory]

The monarchists are trying to convince the people to restore the Monarchy and in this they continue the real legacy of the King. Their problem is they have to be very clear who they will support after the King.
The King's young descendants do not live in the country and have no really connections with it. Not only they do not have dynastic rights according to the Constitutions of the Kingdom of Romania but they are not known by the people,they have a life far away from Romania and certainly they are not perceived by anybody as the future of a "Line of Pretenders". So the compromise with the republic is good enough for the three members of the Family that live in Bucharest and can hardly believe they will ever have a support themselves for a restoration.

 

[LadyRohan]

The monarchists are trying to convince the people to restore the Monarchy and in this they continue the real legacy of the King.

The legacy of the King is his 5 children, and numerous grand- and great-grandchildren, and in any other monarchy or former monarchy, that constitutes a Royal Family. The 'monarchists' who are dissenting with the view of the Royal House, and they're a minority, risk making both the Royal Family personally, and the monarchy as an institution, more ridiculous and outdated, by spending time and energy discussing who's grandchild lives where, or who's parents were left-wing politicians and not.

The argument you keep using about the Kings grandchildren living abroad is not more valid than the fact that every other person you advocate ascending the Romanian throne, the German family of Hohenzollern, all live abroad, not one speaks the language and not one is interested in the throne.

What the line of succession will end up looking like, is a matter for decision when the future of the monarchy is on the table, but right now, the decisions made are done to raise the profile of the monarchy and the knowledge among people about the institution. The only way to do that, is with the attention and shine that befalls actual royalty, when they're out and about, representing, attending and doing.

The only thing this debate that some are trying to rile up on a constant basis these days, making unfounded claims and trouncing every action made by the Royal Family, is destroying the chances of any restoration in Romania.
People might want to think about their own roles, and whether or not what they are doing, contributes to the cause of monarchy, or is destructive to the very thing they want to have happen.

 

[Cory]

Nobody can ask the Romanians to support the Monarchy without explaining who will represent this Monarchy in the future. The King's Family had a possibility of continuity with Mr Medforth Mills but we know hiw it ended. Now the King's Family has nobody young to represent a sort of continuity in the country. The "pragmatic" position of the three members of the King's Family living in Bucharest has nothing really to do with a future Restoration of Monarchy but try to solve the urgent matter of the use of Elisabeta Palace and also funds from the state.
Regarding the monarchists the biggest Association is the Monarchists Clubs leaded by Dr. Marinca and this Association is not close to Elisabeta Palace and probably even less to the "Line of Succession" proposed by Elisabeta Palace. The Movement for Kingdom and Crown is against the new project of law and cooperates very well with the Monarchists Club of Dr. Marinca and in its Statutes does not specify details about a certain Line of Succession.

 

[LadyRohan]

While the monarchist clubs debate what the line of succession should be and how a future monarchy in Romania should come into being, the Royal Family continue their work towards a practical solution for the Royal House, so they can become an integral part of society in Romania once again. Hopefully from there, if they do their job well and if 'well-wishers' don't spend too much time trying to deconstruct the image they're working on building up, we might actually have a restoration of the monarchy, asked for by the citizens, when they ask: Why have a president and republic at all, when we have a great Royal Family doing the good job they do?

That's how the monarchy will come into being in Romania, once again, and what a great day that will be.

 

[Cory]

Living in a dream seems better than in reality but does not solve anything. Even those that are not monarchists hardly understand how some members of the King's Family accept or even promote such a project of law. With no younger generation from the Family with them in Romania, the three members of the King's Family in Bucharest try to get what they can from the state in order to continue their activities. Restoration means public support and a Line of Succession with young prople envolved in the country. They hardly have both.

 

[LadyRohan]

Living in a dream seems better than in reality but does not solve anything. Even those that are not monarchists hardly understand how some members of the King's Family accept or even promote such a project of law. With no younger generation from the Family with them in Romania, the three members of the King's Family in Bucharest try to get what they can from the state in order to continue their activities. Restoration means public support and a Line of Succession with young prople envolved in the country. They hardly have both.

Really have no idea what you're on about, but if the inference is that the Royal Family are the ones living in a dream, while people sitting in a room debating which German should be asked to assume a throne are the realists, I just wonder about what sense of reality you live under.
The Royal Family is working towards a restoration, end of story. There is a line of succession proposed, if more members of the Royal Family move to Romania when the new law is in place remains to be seen.

There is one family representing the monarchy in Romania. Let them do their job, support that if you want the monarchy restored or wake up one day and realize the monarchy is gone for good.

 

[Cory]

There are two Princesses representing the King which is quite different.
Leaving in a dream means insisting to present a Family that wants to.continue to live in a state palace and have funds from the state as really interested in the Monarchy when it is obvious the younger generation of the same family living abroad has hardly connection with the country and the membets living in Bucharest have never campaigned themselves for the abolition of the article of the Constitution that forbids a revision of the form of government. In the vision for 30 years of the same Family nobody finds anything to do with a campaign for the restoration of Monarchy.
It is important more and more monarchists understand the situation and rediscover the traditions of the country prior to 1947.

 

[Hairball]

I just saw this; I'm new here.

Fascinating stuff! But I thought the Hohenzollern family was part of the royal family. Did something happen to them?

 

[LadyRohan]

There are two Princesses representing the King which is quite different.
Leaving in a dream means insisting to present a Family that wants to.continue to live in a state palace and have funds from the state as really interested in the Monarchy when it is obvious the younger generation of the same family living abroad has hardly connection with the country and the membets living in Bucharest have never campaigned themselves for the abolition of the article of the Constitution that forbids a revision of the form of government. In the vision for 30 years of the same Family nobody finds anything to do with a campaign for the restoration of Monarchy.
It is important more and more monarchists understand the situation and rediscover the traditions of the country prior to 1947.

Once again, this doesn't make sense. Every Royal Family lives in a palace, and receives funding for a role performed. The fact that it's done while Romania is still a republic, makes it incredibly generous, and not something to scoff at. The Royal Family has stated publicly many times, why does it need to be repated all the time?, that they want a restoration of the monarchy. Why is that not enough for some?
Why is it worse for the monarchy in Romania that the young generation of the King lives abroad, than every single German Prince, who does not want the Romanian throne, who does the same?

'Rediscovering' traditions prior to 1947, what does that mean? Should we abolish womens liberation, social and economic progress as well, or does this principle only apply to the monarchy?
The monarchy cannot live in a vacuum, and anyone who tries is doomed to fail. Luckily, the Royal Family has moved on. Maybe the rest of us should as well.

 

[LadyRohan]

I just saw this; I'm new here.

Fascinating stuff! But I thought the Hohenzollern family was part of the royal family. Did something happen to them?

The Hohenzollerns are a princely family residing in Germany. In the old constitutions, they were listed as heirs in case the male lines of the Romanian Royal Family would expire, because the first Romanian monarch after the unification was a prince from the House of Hohenzollern back in 1866. They're not a part of the Romanian Royal Family, but some monarchists advocate them being offered the throne, should it be restored, because all the children of the former King, are women, and once upon a time, women weren't eligible to inherit the throne.

The King advocates a new line of succession that consists on equal succession, in line with other Western monarchies, and since his illness and withdrawal from public life, he has designated his eldest daughter his heir, Custodian of the Crown and Head of the Royal House of Romania.

 

[Hairball]

The Hohenzollerns are a princely family residing in Germany. In the old constitutions, they were listed as heirs in case the male lines of the Romanian Royal Family would expire, because the first Romanian monarch after the unification was a prince from the House of Hohenzollern back in 1866. They're not a part of the Romanian Royal Family, but some monarchists advocate them being offered the throne, should it be restored, because all the children of the former King, are women, and once upon a time, women weren't eligible to inherit the throne.

The King advocates a new line of succession that consists on equal succession, in line with other Western monarchies, and since his illness and withdrawal from public life, he has designated his eldest daughter his heir, Custodian of the Crown and Head of the Royal House of Romania.

Good heavens, I just learned in 40 seconds what took me half a quarter in college!

I did not know that. Thank you!

 

[LadyRohan]

Good heavens, I just learned in 40 seconds what took me half a quarter in college!

I did not know that. Thank you!

You're very welcome indeed. I think all subjects should be taught on index-cards, makes it all so much easier

 

[Hairball]

You're very welcome indeed. I think all subjects should be taught on index-cards, makes it all so much easier

I agree!

Do they still own Vlad's Castle in Brasov? Wasn't it a royal residence once? Didn't Queen Marie redecorate it?

 

[LadyRohan]

I agree!

Do they still own Vlad's Castle in Brasov? Wasn't it a royal residence once? Didn't Queen Marie redecorate it?

Quoted and replied to in the correct thread, http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...alaces-and-residences-5176-7.html#post1907794

 

[Katrianna]

Indeed, a very fascinating history and topic. I don't mean to sound flippant, far from it, but how much of a reality is the possible restoration of the Monarchy in Romania? I realize the King was warmly welcomed back after the fall of the Communists and the Royal Family always warmly received by the Romanian public. Nicholas was very popular as I've read and I'm sure especially by the younger generation, now that he's out of the succession, how many younger Romanians are going to be interested in restoration of the Monarchy? I can see interest rising in the Monarchy among older generations and perhaps the younger also in light of a Republic that has had continuous economic ills and corruption for years.
Of course, the Crown Princess is in line to succeed her father, but can the family come up with her successor that will be popular enough to with the up and coming younger generations? Nicholas is out of the question, of course, who could match his popularity? Maybe his sister or could he eventually be placed back in line of succession? I doubt it myself.

 

[Cory]

I just saw this; I'm new here.

Fascinating stuff! But I thought the Hohenzollern family was part of the royal family. Did something happen to them?

There were two branches originated from the Siegmaringen Line: the princile branch and the royal branch of Romania. The second one has its last direct male and after that the other Line can have the Succession like happened in 1889.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

In between all the heated debate I must say Cory raised a valid point. Princess Margareta and Mr Duda have been offered a generous deal by the State of Romania, which they can not refuse in my opinion. At the same time it is all very short-term thinking. When you are a royalist, and isn't monarchy per definition a system of hereditary succession?- then "Elisabeta Palace" should be clear about the future.

Is the "deal" indeed meant to appease and to accomodate and to encapsulate the last Romanian Hohenzollern and will the monarchist ideal end with her? If no, who then will be the torchbearer for the monarchist cause? Karina Medforth-Mills? Elisabeth Biarneix? Or will it be the Fürst von Hohenzollern? Are these three intersted at all in Romania and in it's former Royal House?

I agree with Cory that this remains all foggy and unclear. Depending on how you look to it, the impression is not out of the blue that Princess Margarita and Mr Duda have ensured themselves a good life and the monarchy... ach... "Apres nous la deluge".

 

[Cory]

Indeed, a very fascinating history and topic. I don't mean to sound flippant, far from it, but how much of a reality is the possible restoration of the Monarchy in Romania? I realize the King was warmly welcomed back after the fall of the Communists and the Royal Family always warmly received by the Romanian public. Nicholas was very popular as I've read and I'm sure especially by the younger generation, now that he's out of the succession, how many younger Romanians are going to be interested in restoration of the Monarchy? I can see interest rising in the Monarchy among older generations and perhaps the younger also in light of a Republic that has had continuous economic ills and corruption for years.
Of course, the Crown Princess is in line to succeed her father, but can the family come up with her successor that will be popular enough to with the up and coming younger generations? Nicholas is out of the question, of course, who could match his popularity? Maybe his sister or could he eventually be placed back in line of succession? I doubt it myself.

King Mihai is still very popular and his grandson was the only possibility of his Family to have a change to restore Monarchy. Now the monarchists continue the campaign for the restoration but many people do not know very well the 13 Princes of Hohenzollern that are in Line for Succession.
In Romania accorxing to the Constitutions of the Kingdom women can inherit the Crown so the King's daughters do not have dynastic rights even if the King ask in a document sogned in 2007 that in case of return of Monarchy his daughters and theirs descendants should be allowed to succeed.
It is a rather complex situation with more and more monarchists are not too keen to support the King's elsest daughter that because of the private document of 2007 styles herself as "Custodian of the rown", a title that has nothing to do with Romanian tradition.

 

[Cory]

In between all the heated debate I must say Cory raised a valid point. Princess Margareta and Mr Duda have been offered a generous deal by the State of Romania, which they can not refuse in my opinion. At the same time it is all very short-term thinking. When you are a royalist, and isn't monarchy per definition a system of hereditary succession?- then "Elisabeta Palace" should be clear about the future.

Is the "deal" indeed meant to appease and to accomodate and to encapsulate the last Romanian Hohenzollern and will the monarchist ideal end with her? If no, who then will be the torchbearer for the monarchist cause? Karina Medforth-Mills? Elisabeth Biarneix? Are the interested at all in Romania and in it's former Royal House? I agree with Cory that this remains all foggy and unclear. Depending on how you look to it, the impression is not out of the blue that Princess Margarita and Mr Duda have ensured themselves a good life and the monarchy... ach... Apres Nous La Déluge...

They try to get the best they can for them and that's even understandable but the future of their Family in the country is uncertain. The cause of the restoration can't be stopped by the republican deal but the monarchists must have clear ideas about their strategy for the near future without hoping too much help from Elisabeta Palace.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The King advocates a new line of succession that consists on equal succession, in line with other Western monarchies, and since his illness and withdrawal from public life, he has designated his eldest daughter his heir, Custodian of the Crown and Head of the Royal House of Romania.

Sons are placed before daughters by the house law of December 30, 2007.

Fundamental Rules Of The Royal Family Of Romania: The Complete House Statute

C. The Romanian Crown shall pass from the Head of the Royal House to the first male issue and, in absence of a male issue, to the subsequent female issue.

D. In the absence of direct descendants, the Crown shall be inherited by the eldest brother and, in the absence of one, by the eldest sister of the Head of the Royal House.

E. The place of the persons mentioned at paragraph D, if they are deceased, is occupied by their descendants, whereby male siblings shall take precedence.

In 2007, this was the rule of succession in Great Britain, Spain, Denmark, and Monaco, while the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, and Norway followed absolute primogeniture, and Luxembourg and Liechtenstein had male succession only.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

What puts me off in King Michael is not my "archaïc" or "outdated" view as some think. I still prefer a clear and written rule above a Ceaucescu-like dictatorship with unlogic inconsequences.

Until 2007 the succession was clear: the Prince of Hohenzollern, and then his son the Hereditary Prince. Period.

Then King Michael changes it all: his daughters will succeed him. One of them, Princess Sofia, made an undynastical marriage with a fraud, an imposter. But after het divorce she and her daughter Elisabeth Biarneix came back in grace and favour and are in the new michaelist line of succession. Allez... one will think: why cast the daughter with her mother's wrongdoing?

But then this same principle was not applied to the children of Princess Irina: after their mother's ridiculous removal from the michaelist succession, they lost their position as well....

The adagium that children are not cast with parental sin is applied on Elisabeth but not on her American cousins. How much more inconsequence does one want?

Where in normal monarchies a successor van not be removed without a whole legislative procedure, in Romania King Michael just removed his grandson from his michaelist succession, including the stripping off from his titles. No explanation, just a cryptic memo via thirds. Nicolae Ceaucescu would not have done it better, these intrigues!

And that, my ladies and gentlemen fellow forummers, is why I favor a written and democratically approved and extensively written system above the daily nood and the whims of a man in Switzerland.

On itself I have an understanding for the Fundamental Rules of 2007, but King Michael is meddling too much with his own rules. It is like the previous Duc d'Orléans becoming on non-speaking terms with his son and therefore seeing his grandson as his Heir. Unacceptable and deadly for royal aspirations, as we have seen with the intrigues around Nicholas Medforth-Mills.

 

[CSENYC]

The 1923 Constitution is no longer in effect. Romania's current constitution, which provides for a republic, was validly approved after the end of Communism. Let's stop sounding crazy by claiming that the 1923 version is still applicable.