Restoration of the Monarchy in Romania

[Duc_et_Pair]

Forget Nicholas. He will date a nice girl somewhere, start a family and career. His house will have some family portraits. There will be some royal porcelain and silverware here, maybe a diamond rivière there and that was it.

[Cory]

The number or royalists are growing so we shall see whom they support in the near future as Pretender.

After King Mihai it is the risk the royalists will support different Pretenders.

It is true there are at least these two groups of royalists. It seems the ANRM is in favour of the descendants of the King.

There are more and more royalists in favour of the Hohenzollerns but no important royalist group will publicly support Prince Karl until the King is still among us.

For the Romanian royalists the purpose is to restore the Monarchy and even those who officially support the descendants of the King know the reality. Many respect too much the King to contradict him so only at the moment of the Succession of the Sovereign we shall see who stii supports his descendants.

The royalists do not want to disagree with the very old King but very few will continue to support the King's Family when the King win't be anymore.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Cory

After King Mihai it is the risk the royalists will support different Pretenders.

Don't they already do? Some royalists consider themselves legitimists (seeing the Fürst and the Erbprinz von Hohenzollern as successors) and some royalists consider themselves michaelists, seeing Princess Margareta as the Heiress.

[Benjamin]

Are there any royalist groups that actively support the Prince of Hohenzollern as successor to the King?

I have not seen mention of any in Romania, and, normally, such a thing would receive coverage of some sort.

The issue is that Prince Karl Friedrich has openly stated that he is not interested in pressing any claims in Romania.

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Cory

There are more and more royalists in favour of the Hohenzollerns but no important royalist group will publicly support Prince Karl until the King is still among us.

There is no evidence of this, and seeing what else the press, politicians and prominent Romanians have said about the King before, I doubt his being alive is a factor in whom they support. The facts are that there is no established support for any other faction than the Romanian Royal Family, which does not negate that there are individuals who feel differently.

As always however, it is a question of what is realistically possible. It seems to me the monarchists in Romania are aware of this, and support continuing the monarchy from the current Royal Family, to make sure the monarchy can be restored without having to establish a new Royal House, with the conflicts, discussions and debates that will undoubtedly include.

[Duc_et_Pair]

That is my impression too. The royalists know the King has taken a cul-de-sac with his adventures regarding the succession, but are too polite to disagree with him, as long as it is all nothing more than theoretical free-wheeling.

[Cory]

Even if a lot of people would not accept some of the decisions taken by the Sovereign since 1996 very few will criticize him openly. Many prefer to criticize other members of the King's Family especially his son in law .

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Cory

Even if a lot of people would not accept some of the decisions taken by the Sovereign since 1996 very few will criticize him openly. Many prefer to criticize other members of the King's Family especially his son in law .

Eya is absolutely right. The attacks on Prince Radu are cheap, unkind and most often based of twisting facts and assuming knowledge of the thinking of another person. And in all fairness, they are usually done by the same, few people(s), who for some reason, find it fair to assault the character of someone who is warmly and strongly supporting his wife and the family he was married into.

[Duc_et_Pair]

To be honest, Radu Duda has made himself an ideal target for attacks by all the controverses and the discutability surrounding his person. From the outlook it looks like Nicholas Medforth-Mills was "sent away" for having shady contacts or something but these were nothing, compared with the unclear and shady actions by uncle Radu.

The man has a good nose for PR and will never stop promoting the interests of the monarchy but he himself is not for nothing the ideal target for criticism.

[Cory]

Unfortunately this reality influences quite a lot the perception of the people about the King's Family.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

From the outlook it looks like Nicholas Medforth-Mills was "sent away" for having shady contacts or something but these were nothing, compared with the unclear and shady actions by uncle Radu.

This statement seems a bit strange. Your reaction to the expulsion of Nicholas claimed that such a thing (i.e. being stripped of his rights) was surely welcome to the prince as now he could be free to do whatever he wanted (even though he had never given any indication during his years in Romania that he desired to do anything but serve the people of that country). You held that the decision was surely taken by Nicholas himself. Further, you stated that Princess Margarita and Prince Radu had done a fine job of helping Nicholas fit into his role (which they clearly did not--assuming the allegations are true). Are you now changing your tune and blaming the ill-advised action towards Nicholas on the éminence grise that is his uncle?

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Benjamin

This statement seems a bit strange. Your reaction to the expulsion of Nicholas claimed that such a thing (i.e. being stripped of his rights) was surely welcome to the prince as now he could be free to do whatever he wanted (even though he had never given any indication during his years in Romania that he desired to do anything but serve the people of that country). You held that the decision was surely taken by Nicholas himself. Further, you stated that Princess Margarita and Prince Radu had done a fine job of helping Nicholas fit into his role (which they clearly did not--assuming the allegations are true). Are you now changing your tune and blaming the ill-advised action towards Nicholas on the éminence grise that is his uncle?

This post clearly shows the inconsistencies in previous posts, and how difficult it is to discuss the cause, separated from personal views about people. A further lack of consistency is the seeming interest in reducing the value of certain members of the Royal Family, while simultaneously claiming they have no standing in the family, or the country, no chance of returning to the throne or to any position of influence.

If they don't play a role, and won't in a future you lay out, why the need to talk about them at all? I suppose it could be taken as evidence that those who oppose the Royal Family, are worried that they have more support than is wanted, and that there is an urgent need to talk them down.

[Duc_et_Pair]

I have no any doubt that Nicholas is relieved now he is lost from that burden of being a "Heir" to a defunct throne. This Swiss-born British gentleman maybe feel happy to be free from Ruritania eh... Romania I mean.

With my previous post I did not had Nicholas' viewpoint in my mind but that of "the Royal House" which apparently -if we have to believe the rumours- shove Nicholas away because of his "shady contacts" (amongst others with the former President whom insulted and ridiculed King Michael). If thát (the "shady contacts") was the reason, then it is weird that what was apparently blamed on Nicholas, was not blamed on his uncle Radu, with so many more shady contacts and aspects in his past.

That was more what I wanted to say.

[Cory]

For the royalists now there is a big challenge: how to remain united and promote the Monarchy even if they have different views about Succession.

The interview with Princess Margareta and her husband at TVR was not broadcasted Tuesday evening. The reason for being postponed is probably the huge rally in Bucharest.

[Cory]

In the last two days there were huge rallies in the main cities that brought to the dismissal of the government. It is obvious that the people want more than just a political change because nobody wants a corrupted system anymore. There were royalists with the Royal flags among those who attend the rallies but it is really hard to know if there is in this confusing moment an increasing popularity of the Monarchy. Two things are clear: the politicians and the Orthodox patriarch are contested by a part of the population.

[LadyRohan]

It is good to see the Romanian Royal Family being visible at important events and centrally placed in discussions in Romania. The Crown Princess travels throughout the country, meets people, lights candles and stands among grieving men and women, is firmly placed in the centre of reburials, investitures, is interviewed in tv and in the papers, holds investitures and raises the profile of Romania wherever she can.

To think that in the event of a restoration, the Romanian people would want their own Royal Family displaced because they're women, and because a long-since gone constitution said that a German Prince of Hohenzollern should be imported if there were no male heirs, is a view so out of date and step with the modern Romania we speak of, it beggars belief.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by LadyRohan

[...]

To think that in the event of a restoration, the Romanian people would want their own Royal Family displaced because they're women, and because a long-since gone constitution said that a German Prince of Hohenzollern should be imported if there were no male heirs, is a view so out of date and step with the modern Romania we speak of, it beggars belief.

- a restoration will never happen, period

- there is no question of "importing" Princes of Hohenzollern: Michael is a Prince of Hohenzollern himself, his daughters Margareta, Elena, Irina, Sophia and Maria are Princesses of Hohenzollern

- when you speak about importing "Germans", why don't you speak about importing a Swiss-born British (Nicholas Medforth-Mills), a British-born British (Karina Medforth-Mills) or a French-born Française (Elisabeth Biarneix)?

- what you call "views so out of date": this can include the whole concept of a monarchy an sich, of course

- note, that the youngest child of King Michael -was he a boy- still would have bypassed all his five elder sisters under the current "modern" rules anno 2007, so advocated by you...

- needless to say that when Michael had a son, we would never have seen this vaudeville, as he would have been sure about his succession...

[Cory]

More and more royalists join the rallies in Bucharest and different cities and ask for the restoration of Monarchy:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...4893250&type=3

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

- a restoration will never happen, period

- there is no question of "importing" Princes of Hohenzollern: Michael is a Prince of Hohenzollern himself, his daughters Margareta, Elena, Irina, Sophia and Maria are Princesses of Hohenzollern

- when you speak about importing "Germans", why don't you speak about importing a Swiss-born British (Nicholas Medforth-Mills), a British-born British (Karina Medforth-Mills) or a French-born Française (Elisabeth Biarneix)?

- what you call "views so out of date": this can include the whole concept of a monarchy an sich, of course

- note, that the youngest child of King Michael -was he a boy- still would have bypassed all his five elder sisters under the current "modern" rules anno 2007, so advocated by you...

- needless to say that when Michael had a son, we would never have seen this vaudeville, as he would have been sure about his succession...

Several monarchies choose to still use male-preferred primogeniture. It's not my favourite model, but that's life. Your idea that a monarchy will never be restored, and that monarchies are out of date per se, makes it difficult to debate a locked position.

Mine are not locked. I'm not a member of Parliament in Romania, nor do I live within the Royal Family. I do not presume to know what will happen tomorrow, and Romania is a society in rapid progress. I believe in the cause of the monarchy, the virtue of an unelected and representative head of state that cannot be corrupted, and controlled, as easily as a president is. I've laid out how I believe a restoration will take place. That you don't believe in a restoration at all, makes it rather hard to logically have a debate about merits. Anything I say, and put down a case for, will be dismissed out of hand anyway, so what's the point?

The Romanian Royal Family has raised their profile considerably in Romania since their return, and in the past few years, people are starting to see monarchy as a real option to the failed republic they've had since the fall of communism.

I cannot see a scenario underwhich they will be displaced in a regal future of Romania. That they were born in exile, their grandchildren born in exile, does not negate them being the Romanian Royal Family.

I am sure, however, that some will argue for a different solution.
It would just be so refreshing to see an argument in favour of it, and it would be nice if the person(s) making them actually believed in the monarchy and its place as a governing system at all.

[Duc_et_Pair]

But the point is that a monarchy is about tradition, about the principle of hereditary succession, about maintaining the Constitution and about defending the rights of the citizens. But it is you, a royalist supporter, which used the word "outdated" for the succession according Salic Law, however a very monarchist principle anyway. It is you who apparently see no problem in a private person fabricating a private document and with this "overruling" the royal Constitution.

I am not against Princess Margareta being Michael's Heir, as that is what the democratic Parliament of the new Kingdom of Romania wants and has approved. I am against Princess Margareta being made Michael's Heir purely because he prefer to change the rules in favour of his own daughter than to respect these (and then the headship goes to the Fürst von Hohenzollern), while anyone can see that beyond Margareta it will be a cul-de-sac and the end of the Royal House.

What King Michael did is exactly what Don Ferdinand VII de Borbón y Borbón-Parma did with his Pragmática Sanción of 1830. Confronted with only two daughters and with the Salic Law which is observed in all Bourbon Houses, the King decided to overrule it in favour of his minor daughter (who would soon become Queen). This did split Spain to the bone, as his brother Infante Don Carlos has always been the Heir until the King's palace-coup. It has led to three bloody Carlist Wars.

What King Michael did is essentially the same. Luckily he is an old man somewhere in Switzerland, playing in this tragicomic operetta. God beware he has fabricated this vaudeville during an actual reign.