Princess Madeleine, Chris O'Neill and Family, General News 2: June 2015 - Sept 2017


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Exactly. Had she just said to them when she got pregnant that she would not come to the New York thing and that the other thing would have to be decided colser and they didn't put her name on the invitations, it would have been no problem. I have no problem with her spending time with her children. Just how it's been handled. I mean... predicting that a New York trip so soon after having the kid would probably not work isn't exactly brainsurgery and it shows a lack of foresight from either themselves or the team...

It is very possible that under perfect circumstances she could have fulfilled her engagements but when you have an infant and a toddler things can change very quickly. I am assuming she does not have a crystal ball so her intent may have been to do these two events but circumstances changed that. Anyone that have had two children close together like Princess Madeleine knows that things can work like clockwork only to hours later be in total chaos, even with live-in help. Which children that small sometimes only mom will do.
 
Exactly. Had she just said to them when she got pregnant that she would not come to the New York thing and that the other thing would have to be decided colser and they didn't put her name on the invitations, it would have been no problem. I have no problem with her spending time with her children. Just how it's been handled. I mean... predicting that a New York trip so soon after having the kid would probably not work isn't exactly brainsurgery and it shows a lack of foresight from either themselves or the team...

I total agree with everything you have written.......
 
I see no problem with Madeleine taking time to be with her young children. She can even pick and choice what events to attend and what not to attend, thats her choice.

I think the problem that most posters here and myself have is that she agreed to attend these events and then cancels at the last minute to spend time with her young kids. The palace should never have confirmed her attendance at an events thats only a few months after she would have had her second child.
Instead, this looks like she is cancelling at the last minute. It does not help that Chris also had a similar issue a few months back when he also made a last minute cancellation because of work commitments.

The palace PR is really slacking with these two. I think that these two have had to deal with a lot of critisism from the press and a lot of times I have felt that they have been unfairly judged. These cancellations are not going to help the situation, it just feeds to the view that some people have about them being undecisive.

The palace needs to clearly define what the couple's official role is and stick to it.
 
Exactly, its ridiculous that the palace releases now a comment on everything Madeleine choses to do or not to do and why, while the reason given (kids, focus on family) is not good enough for every event (opening of Parliament yes but other events no), its bound to be critizised.

Agree. It is completely ridiculous. Τhe palace trying to save those who are not saved. You have to make a decision and make it back for now at least if you can not meet these minimum doing now.
If I remember correctly, there was quite some debate about CP Victoria needing to take official "Parental Leave". Now many thought she would be fine just attending the odd Gala (sound familiar) but Sweden has Parental Leave and it became apparent that Swedes expected her to follow custom and after the compromise at the wedding Victoria and Daniel decided it was a good idea and split the leave between them.

Why am I not hearing the same about Madeleine, why does nobody think that she needs "Parental Leave". She has two young children and Chris is definitely not taking any. More than that, Madeleine has two children and I wonder if she even had time for the first 'Parental Leave' before she was pregnant with her second.

If Madeleine is doing it all, the commute and disruption to the family may be far in excess of anything that either she of Chris had imagined and Madeleine may have committed herself to too much before she found out just how much punishment the body takes having two children in two years.

Perhaps she has found commuting far more disruptive to their family life and grossly underestimated how the commuting would affect her. She may be exhausted or even suffering from the baby blues and yet there seems an unbelievable lack of compassion for her situation and truthfully I find it quite appalling.

Madeleine is not perfect, however, with a wedding and two babies in three years perhaps reality has well and truly bit her.
 
Of course Madeleine, and Victoria have right to a maternity leave. But because they don't work eight hours on five days a week, at least for me it isn't an odd thought that they do a work event now and then, even though they are on maternity leave.
We shouldn't compare Madeleine and Victoria, but: Estelle was born on 23rd February.
On 23rd March Victoria met Charles and Camilla when they had arrived to Sweden.
In April Victoria attended at two events in two days at the State visit of the president of Finland, and she attended at the official celebration of the King's birthday.
In May Victoria attended at the reception for the Federal president of Germany's visit to Sweden, she delivered the ALMA-prize and attended at the annual meeting of the Friends of Nordiska Museet and Skansens Vänner (she is the honorary member). In May was also Estelle's christening and the funeral of count Carl Johan Bernadotte.
In June she had 2 events, in July the Victoria Day, in August 10 events.

So Victoria did a few work events during the first months and I thought that Madeleine would do some too.

And for me also that problem isn't that Madeleine doesn't do work events, but that she has accepted to attend at these two events and then cancelled her attendance. She has known about a year that she will have a three month old baby and another small child in September 2015, and she isn't a mother for the first time, she has already experience with Leonore, she knows what a life with a small child in her own family means.
 
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It would be much better if she said that she was on full-time parental leave and stayed with the kids in London. Then - if everything worked out well at home - she could turn up as a surprise visitor on different occasions, and make people happily surprised (instead of disappointed when she promises and then cancel).
 
It would be much better if she said that she was on full-time parental leave and stayed with the kids in London. Then - if everything worked out well at home - she could turn up as a surprise visitor on different occasions, and make people happily surprised (instead of disappointed when she promises and then cancel).
Exactly this! I've seen noone comment that the excuse of the kids was not valid. Just that they should have accounted for that when making the plans.
 
Perhaps she has found commuting far more disruptive to their family life and grossly underestimated how the commuting would affect her. She may be exhausted or even suffering from the baby blues and yet there seems an unbelievable lack of compassion for her situation and truthfully I find it quite appalling.

Madeleine is not perfect, however, with a wedding and two babies in three years perhaps reality has well and truly bit her.

I agree 100%. :flowers: Plus all the criticism when she does show up, who needs that? Fact is any number of things could be afoot. Just hope she is okay. Why stress over it? Just wish her well, I say.
 
I agree 100%. :flowers: Plus all the criticism when she does show up, who needs that? Fact is any number of things could be afoot. Just hope she is okay. Why stress over it? Just wish her well, I say.
I hope very much she is ok, and agree that she has every right to stay home. I think the only thing we're commenting on is the lack of foresight on that this would probably be how she would feel and not plan in a trip to New York 3 months after the birth of a child. Noone is saying she should go or that we don't have any sympathy! I have much sympathy for her! Just think it was an odd scheduling.
 
The bottom line, we are all human. None of us know what is around the corner. We don't know why she felt the need to pull out of engagements, they may be very sound personal reasons. I am loathe to judge anyone.
 
The bottom line, we are all human. None of us know what is around the corner. We don't know why she felt the need to pull out of engagements, they may be very sound personal reasons. I am loathe to judge anyone.
Yes, we cannot know how we would feel. I agree that we can't plan for everything but you always have to "play the odds". The odds of you wanting to leave your 2 kids 3 months after giving birth for a 7 hour flight to new york + event + 7 hours back is not a very difficult thing to guess. That is all people are commenting on, that this was a rather "simple" cancellation to forsee coming, and that they should not have announced her going in the first place. That is all! Noone is commenting on her reasons!
 
It is possible that the kids are currently sick and she would like to stay home to help them recover.
 
I suspect that Madeleine decided to take the better to ask forgiveness than permission approach and it does not seem to be working for her.
 
:previous: I actually think that Madeleine literally got in way over her head and may very well not even have reached out to her family.

There are some pretty harsh comments about her "not wanting to lose her princess title", along with comments advocating a downsized royal family with only the King, Queen and Crownprincess Couple and their children. So yes, there definite were "kick her out of the kingdom" type comments, just like a reality show where you get to vote someone off the island!

When some of these engagements were set I believe that Madeleine still thought they would be living and quite settled in Sweden, and in truth, that did seem to be the stated intention. However, who knew the media would attack both Madeleine and Chris to such a degree as to make it almost impossible for Chris to carry on his business in Sweden and necessitate a move to London.

That decision set in train yet another major upheaval for Madeleine facing a move to yet another foreign country, finding a new house and setting up home for them and their two children. I think facing the reality of leaving a loving and supportive family behind and once again having to start all over again must have been incredibly hard. Accepting that the people of Sweden didn't seem to want her there must have also hurt her badly.
 
I truly think she'd be facing a lot less criticism now if her children didn't have royal titles. That decision still totally baffles me.


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However, who knew the media would attack both Madeleine and Chris to such a degree as to make it almost impossible for Chris to carry on his business in Sweden and necessitate a move to London.

I think Chris never ever contemplated to live and run business in Sweden for the fact that his income/taxes would become public knowledge. I think HIS vision or decision on business and married life was clear all along but was ignored/badly communicated by the court and his wife.

I agree that Madeleine was in over her head and got a lot of reality checks along the way, from both the Swedish people/media and her husband.
 
I truly think she'd be facing a lot less criticism now if her children didn't have royal titles. That decision still totally baffles me.
I do not believe that was Madeleine's request or decision to make. We need look no further than King CG and Prince Bertil's situation to see the King's reasoning. He was the only heir and his uncle gave up any hope of his own children when he acceded to his father's request that he not marry just to ensure he could act as Regent should he die before his grandson came of age.

We all know that with the best will in the world we cannot prevent the death of a child by illness or accident. At the time of Lenore's birth, there was only one other child, her cousin HRH Princess Estelle, the heir's heir and no certainty of a sibling. CP was not in a secure relationship and, even if he had been, you cannot count on children as a given.

King CG, rightly or wrongly, erred on the side of caution and, having created Lenore a Princess of Sweden, could we expect him to do less for her brother? That it looks like the King's insurance policy for the future will no longer be essential is no reason we should beat up on Madeleine for the situation.
 
I do not believe that was Madeleine's request or decision to make. We need look no further than King CG and Prince Bertil's situation to see the King's reasoning. He was the only heir and his uncle gave up any hope of his own children when he acceded to his father's request that he not marry just to ensure he could act as Regent should he die before his grandson came of age.

We all know that with the best will in the world we cannot prevent the death of a child by illness or accident. At the time of Lenore's birth, there was only one other child, her cousin HRH Princess Estelle, the heir's heir and no certainty of a sibling. CP was not in a secure relationship and, even if he had been, you cannot count on children as a given.

King CG, rightly or wrongly, erred on the side of caution and, having created Lenore a Princess of Sweden, could we expect him to do less for her brother? That it looks like the King's insurance policy for the future will no longer be essential is no reason we should beat up on Madeleine for the situation.

MARG, your rationale is spot on! 100000% agree with each word.

I believe the decision to make Madeleine and Chris' children HRH's and Prince/ss of Sweden were not theirs.
 
I think Chris never ever contemplated to live and run business in Sweden for the fact that his income/taxes would become public knowledge. I think HIS vision or decision on business and married life was clear all along but was ignored/badly communicated by the court and his wife.

I agree. Of course Madeleine had told Chris that ever since Daniel and Victoria started dating, Daniel's incomes and taxes were published every year at the media. Chris as a very private person didn't want that.
 
It is very complicated at this time for Madeleine throughout this situation. All things in her personal life occurred very quickly (marriage, two children and a permanent establishment in another country) and on the other the palace and the task has according to her title. Family and duty. I think that trying these conditions to bring them into balance but I doubt if it succeeded. So far at least it shows.
 
Well hopefully soon she will be able work out a plan that will work for her and her family .....and if she is going to carry on doing duties for the crown ......
 
MARG, your rationale is spot on! 100000% agree with each word.

I believe the decision to make Madeleine and Chris' children HRH's and Prince/ss of Sweden were not theirs.


Rumours are that Madeleine did indeed plan to relinquish her HRH status upon marrying Chris but that her father would not have it.



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Rumours are that Madeleine did indeed plan to relinquish her HRH status upon marrying Chris but that her father would not have it.



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I don't believe that for a second and I don't think that this is something people critizised her for. She's a born princess, why give up her title, even when she's not working for the crown. Its who she is.
And as a sidenote: it is important for her, she likes to be the glamour princess showing up at the A-class events.

The titles for a children are a very different matter though.
 
I don't believe that for a second and I don't think that this is something people critizised her for. She's a born princess, why give up her title, even when she's not working for the crown. Its who she is.
And as a sidenote: it is important for her, she likes to be the glamour princess showing up at the A-class events.

The titles for a children are a very different matter though.


Who said anything about her being criticised for being HRH?! At least I didn't. That she wanted to relinquish her status is something I've heard from several different sources so it might be true but then again it might not be. I for one wouldn't be surprised if the former. It suits in the overall picture I have of both Madeleine as not at all comfortable in her Royal role and The King who's been striving for a more secure Line of Succession ever since he came into office.

Her children's titles might seem strange to some but are, to me, consistent with how the Court have interpreted the changes to the Act of Succession from 1979.


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If Madeleine wanted to relinquish her titles why when she was first engaged to Jonas was it announced that he would become a duke. I think Madeleine enjoys her life as a princess without really wanting to take on much responsibility.
 
Surely whether or not the children have a title is not the same issue as whether or not they stay in the line of succession. I understand every country is different but it seems plenty of other countries allow royals without titles, or HRH at least, to remain in the succession - the UK has the Wessex children (Viscount Severn and Lady Louise) as well as Anne's children (Zara Tindal and Peter Phillips), Norway has the daughters of Martha Louise and even the younger children of the Crown Prince don't have HRH but just HH, Denmark have the children of Prince Joachim who are HH, Spain have the children of the King's sisters.

Personally I think if Madeleine didn't want her children to have titles she could simply have asked her father to allow this, even if the children were legally HRH Prince/Princess if the Royal Court insisted on referring to them without these titles as Leonore O'Neil or Leonore Bernodotte O'Neil eventually it would become the norm.

IMO Madeleine either needs to adopt a more professional approach to her royal duties or give them. I'm sorry if it sounds mean and uncaring but you can't always drop out of things at the last minute because the 'children have to come first'. Absolutely, of course children are important, but if you make a commitment to be somewhere or do something or to represent a charity it should take more than children being children to stop you attending especially when the children have a father who by the looks of it would rather stay at home with them anyway. I think its bad form that Madeleine clearly wants to be a Princess but won't pull her weight. Its always the same, cancel engagements here and there, the media rightly point this out, Madeleine comes home, does a week or so of engagements in Sweden to get good PR then disappears again.
 
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If Madeleine wanted to relinquish her titles why when she was first engaged to Jonas was it announced that he would become a duke. I think Madeleine enjoys her life as a princess without really wanting to take on much responsibility.

I think your total right about Madeleine enjoying her life as princess and not wanting the responsibility .....
 
If Madeleine wanted to relinquish her titles why when she was first engaged to Jonas was it announced that he would become a duke. I think Madeleine enjoys her life as a princess without really wanting to take on much responsibility.
At no time was Madeleine going to relinquish her right to be what she was born, namely a princess. As to her HRH status, I am not sure. However, the situation with Jonas was totally different to that of Chris in that Jonas was quite happy to become the Duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland. He was urbane, cultured, a member or their social set and he was Swedish and lived in Sweden.

Chris, on the other hand, was never going to be anything other than what he is, a businessman, and he never intended to live in Sweden. He declined a title and the requisite Swedish citizenship which would have required him to relinquish his dual American and British citizenship.

Madeleine was born a Princess of Sweden. It is not a matter of wanting to be one, she is one. Just as the King's sisters are still all Princesses, so is Madeleine and she surely has the right to enjoy being who she is. The idea of responsibility or lack of the same has nothing to do with it.

As to Tommy's assertion that "if Madeleine didn't want her children to have titles she could simply have asked her father to allow this totally misses the point, namely her family history! However, if they are living in London and Victoria and Daniel are safely delivered of an heir, things will loosen up considerably and even more so when and if Carl Philip and Sofia have a child or children.

IMO Madeleine either needs to adopt a more professional approach to her royal duties or give them. I'm sorry if it sounds mean and uncaring but you can't always drop out of things at the last minute because the 'children have to come first'.
Actually I think she is quite professional. She is entitled to Parental Leave, and yes you are, as you say, harsh and uncaring. We do not even know if the children come into this at all, merely that it is possible. It is also possible, if not probable, that Madeleine herself is unable to attend.

Whatever the reason, I wish people would stop demanding that Madeleine become more "professional". Common decency should give her a little time and space after the wedding, two children and three country shift in three years!
 
At no time was Madeleine going to relinquish her right to be what she was born, namely a princess. As to her HRH status, I am not sure. However, the situation with Jonas was totally different to that of Chris in that Jonas was quite happy to become the Duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland. He was urbane, cultured, a member or their social set and he was Swedish and lived in Sweden.

Chris, on the other hand, was never going to be anything other than what he is, a businessman, and he never intended to live in Sweden. He declined a title and the requisite Swedish citizenship which would have required him to relinquish his dual American and British citizenship.

Madeleine was born a Princess of Sweden. It is not a matter of wanting to be one, she is one. Just as the King's sisters are still all Princesses, so is Madeleine and she surely has the right to enjoy being who she is. The idea of responsibility or lack of the same has nothing to do with it.

As to Tommy's assertion that "if Madeleine didn't want her children to have titles she could simply have asked her father to allow this totally misses the point, namely her family history! However, if they are living in London and Victoria and Daniel are safely delivered of an heir, things will loosen up considerably and even more so when and if Carl Philip and Sofia have a child or children.

Actually I think she is quite professional. She is entitled to Parental Leave, and yes you are, as you say, harsh and uncaring. We do not even know if the children come into this at all, merely that it is possible. It is also possible, if not probable, that Madeleine herself is unable to attend.

Whatever the reason, I wish people would stop demanding that Madeleine become more "professional". Common decency should give her a little time and space after the wedding, two children and three country shift in three years!

I am agreeing with you 100% on this, Marg. :flowers: The upset with Madeleine I always find puzzling.
 
Who said anything about her being criticised for being HRH?! At least I didn't. That she wanted to relinquish her status is something I've heard from several different sources so it might be true but then again it might not be. I for one wouldn't be surprised if the former. It suits in the overall picture I have of both Madeleine as not at all comfortable in her Royal role and The King who's been striving for a more secure Line of Succession ever since he came into office.

Her children's titles might seem strange to some but are, to me, consistent with how the Court have interpreted the changes to the Act of Succession from 1979.


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As legitimate descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf, Madeleine's children would always be in the line of succession unless otherwise excluded under the Act of Succession e.g. for not being members of the Church of Sweden, or for not being raised in Sweden. In principle, their succession rights have nothing to do then IMHO with whether they are titled or not.

The confusion in this case seems to come from the fact that, although not saying that explicitly, the Act of Succession seems to imply that all persons in the line of succession, i.e currently only the legitimate descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf, also hold the title of prince or princess of Sweden. Belgium BTW has a similar problem as far as the descendants of King Albert II are concerned, but for a different reason (apparently a royal decree to that end issued by the late King Baudouin). Both the Swedish and Belgian practices stand in contrast to other monarchies, e.g. the UK, the Netherlands, Spain, or Norway, where it is perfectly possible to be in the line of succession without being an HRH.

As I see it, the issue would be solved if the parliament of Sweden, upon proposal of the Swedish government, passed legislation, along the lines e.g. of the Dutch model, explicitly regulating membership of the Royal House and royal titles and styles. Again, there is no need to tie succession rights to a particular title.

Madeleine was born a Princess of Sweden. It is not a matter of wanting to be one, she is one. Just as the King's sisters are still all Princesses, so is Madeleine and she surely has the right to enjoy being who she is. The idea of responsibility or lack of the same has nothing to do with it.

None of the King's sisters are in the line of succession and, with the exception of Princess Birgitta, the King's sisters are not HRHs. They are referred to as "princesses" by courtesy only.

As for Madeleine relinquishing her title, I sincerely don't know how she could have done it. Apparently, there is no legal norm explicitly regulating who is a prince or princess of Sweden. In the past , King Carl Gustaf's uncles lost their HRH titles though when they were removed from the line of succession (for example Prince Sigvard of Sweden, Duke of Uppland, became Count Sigvard Bernadotte). If the same rule applied to Madeleine (I'm not sure it does !), she could relinquish her sucession rights and, by implication, also give up her title, if she ceased to profess the Lutheran faith, or married without the consent of the Swedish government, or became the sovereign of another country without the consent of the king and the parliament of Sweden.

Other than the situations described above, as a legitimate descendant of King Carl XVI Gustaf, Madeleine could only be removed from the line of succession IMHO by an amendment to the Act of Succession itself. As we know though, since the Act of Succession is a fundamental law, an amendment thereto would require two votes in the Swedish parliament with a general election in between, as was the case in 1979.
 
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