Princess Madeleine, Chris O'Neill and Family, General News 2: June 2015 - Sept 2017


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I don't think that anyone has suggested that swedes are tolerant when it comes to gender differences. I would say that most swedes are very intolerant when it comes to issues on gender inequality and gender norms. Gender equality is a very big thing here. Being conservative is just about the most shocking thing you can do here.

In a way, it's quite interesting to compare this to all the criticism against princess Sofia. I think that a lot of people from other countries are upset about her past as a model and other things that are frequently discussed. Most swedes doesn't care. Being (semi)nude isn't a big thing. But try to be conservative... that's an easy way to clash with your surroundings. In other countries it's the other way around. I think it all comes down to the different cultural values and traditions.
I thought about that as well. How so many were so flabbergasted over us not making a big deal... But weren't Sweden one of the first countries in like the 60s to allow nudity in movies? :p
 
I don't think that anyone has suggested that swedes are tolerant when it comes to gender differences. I would say that most swedes are very intolerant when it comes to issues on gender inequality and gender norms. Gender equality is a very big thing here. Being conservative is just about the most shocking thing you can do here.

It seems that the Sweden I lived in for a long time has changed....

I would have thought, that there would be muuuch bigger cultural differences to be shocked about anywhere in Sweden than someone being a bit more conservative. ;)
 
I thought about that as well. How so many were so flabbergasted over us not making a big deal... But weren't Sweden one of the first countries in like the 60s to allow nudity in movies? :p

Correct. And I would say that people in general are much more upset about violence and drugs in movies, than someone being naked.
 
So instead of bread winner he should he have said " I'm the one bringing in the money on which we live " would that make everyone happy or is that wrong too.
They have to have money to live and he makes it what on earth is wrong with that he certainly doesn't deserve to be called names.


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I really love the way we can learn so much about each other's cultures on this forum, apart from all the things we learn about Royalty. My two friends in Sweden (one in Malmo and one in Kalmar) are both women like me who stayed at home with the children and their husbands worked outside the home. So it was so interesting to hear that this was such an extraordinary situation, culture is an ever evolving thing and the variables that shape it are to numerous that it is almost impossible to define it.I'm glad our Swedish posters have tried to explain it to us!
 
So instead of bread winner he should he have said " I'm the one bringing in the money on which we live " would that make everyone happy or is that wrong too.
They have to have money to live and he makes it what on earth is wrong with that he certainly doesn't deserve to be called names.


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It would be a more "normal" (as in norm in our culture) way to put it. We are still not complaining as some want to see it. Just explaining why it "stood out" in a Swedish context.
 
I really love the way we can learn so much about each other's cultures on this forum, apart from all the things we learn about Royalty. My two friends in Sweden (one in Malmo and one in Kalmar) are both women like me who stayed at home with the children and their husbands worked outside the home. So it was so interesting to hear that this was such an extraordinary situation, culture is an ever evolving thing and the variables that shape it are to numerous that it is almost impossible to define it.I'm glad our Swedish posters have tried to explain it to us!
I agree. I found this "discussion" very interesting :) How different two on the surface rather similar and modern cultures can have so different cultures when you look a little harded :) Very facinating!
 
I really love the way we can learn so much about each other's cultures on this forum, apart from all the things we learn about Royalty. My two friends in Sweden (one in Malmo and one in Kalmar) are both women like me who stayed at home with the children and their husbands worked outside the home. So it was so interesting to hear that this was such an extraordinary situation, culture is an ever evolving thing and the variables that shape it are to numerous that it is almost impossible to define it.I'm glad our Swedish posters have tried to explain it to us!

Thank you for understanding what I (and several other swedish posters) are trying to explain :flowers:

I'll try to be even more clear to avoid further misunderstandings. (Not aimed at anyone in particular - just a general explanation).

Flipside: I'm glad Chris did the interview. He has a lot to gain by being more open towards the press and the swedish population in general. It's also very good that he explained that he's not going to be around for every major royal occasion. I understand the reasons behind it, and they are perfectly legitimate. I hope they also try to be more consistent when it comes to planning and PR in the future - that could do a lot to improve their image.

Downside: The way that Chris expresses himself is something that raises a lot of eyebrows over here. His talk about being "the breadwinner" is seen as very old fashioned here. I'm 44 years old, and personally don't know a single woman my age who isn't working and making her own money. (Yes, they do exist, but it's very rare). Women are encouraged to stand on their own two feet and make their own money. Having a husband as a "breadwinner" is a very rare and strange thing to most people my age.

Chris also talks about how he wants to come home and have dinner with his family after a long day at work. Nothing wrong with that, but together with a lot of other remarks it gives us the impression that he's a 1950's kind of guy: he wants a housewife who takes care of the house and kids while he's working. And this is something very, very far away from how the average swede lives.

Everyone has the right to live their lives as they want, as long as you don't hurt anyone else. He's perfectly entitled to his thoughts and opinions, and as long as Madeleine is okay with it, I personally have no objections. The remarks I've made are done to try to explain to other posters why there might be a backlash towards Chris here in Sweden after this interview. I think that Chris isn't familiar with the ways of society here, and he - along with many posters here - can't really understand what the fuzz is about. So I'm trying to explain the fuzz.
 
Thank you for understanding what I (and several other swedish posters) are trying to explain :flowers:

I'll try to be even more clear to avoid further misunderstandings. (Not aimed at anyone in particular - just a general explanation).

Flipside: I'm glad Chris did the interview. He has a lot to gain by being more open towards the press and the swedish population in general. It's also very good that he explained that he's not going to be around for every major royal occasion. I understand the reasons behind it, and they are perfectly legitimate. I hope they also try to be more consistent when it comes to planning and PR in the future - that could do a lot to improve their image.

Downside: The way that Chris expresses himself is something that raises a lot of eyebrows over here. His talk about being "the breadwinner" is seen as very old fashioned here. I'm 44 years old, and personally don't know a single woman my age who isn't working and making her own money. (Yes, they do exist, but it's very rare). Women are encouraged to stand on their own two feet and make their own money. Having a husband as a "breadwinner" is a very rare and strange thing to most people my age.

Chris also talks about how he wants to come home and have dinner with his family after a long day at work. Nothing wrong with that, but together with a lot of other remarks it gives us the impression that he's a 1950's kind of guy: he wants a housewife who takes care of the house and kids while he's working. And this is something very, very far away from how the average swede lives.

Everyone has the right to live their lives as they want, as long as you don't hurt anyone else. He's perfectly entitled to his thoughts and opinions, and as long as Madeleine is okay with it, I personally have no objections. The remarks I've made are done to try to explain to other posters why there might be a backlash towards Chris here in Sweden after this interview. I think that Chris isn't familiar with the ways of society here, and he - along with many posters here - can't really understand what the fuzz is about. So I'm trying to explain the fuzz.
Thank you for a very nice way of putting it :) And I think this interview can do alot of good because he was clear in stating their intentions and resonings :)
 
But what I have yet to discover is why Chris's culture cannot be accepted as valid and the hostility is reduced to infantile insults calling him at best, conservative and at worst, a male chauvinist pig! Wow, just wow. Seems to me there is a lot of "my way or the highway" going on here.

Chris has a culture that seems at total odds with that of the Swedes.

Culture is a very strange thing and coming from a country that gave women the vote in September 1883 and equal pay for equal work in 1972. And yet the crystal clear glass ceiling is still sitting there just as it always has. My culture has some major kinks to work out. But I know the parameters because that is how it has alway been so who am I to denigrate Chris because his culture differs from mine.

This tread has turned out to be surprisingly educational. :)

I've shortened Marg's brilliant post, that is well worth reflecting on. :flowers:

First a little personal protest, Marg :) I did call Chris arch conservative and that was an immediate reaction based on my definition of a conservative as a Scandinavian. - (That I still believe he is a conservative politically as well as personal is another matter.) In fact come to think of it I am in many ways pretty conservative without ever labeling myself one.

But Marg is right. We Scandinavians didn't consider Chris' cultural background before we reacted.
However, it also shows that Chris has not understood one of the most important things in Swedish society and in the Swedish mindset. Whether that is due to him not being properly introduced to Swedish culture or simply lack of interest or time, is anyone's guess. But as another poster suggested that ignorance will inevitable cause minor clashes in the future.
Because the average Gösta and Freja Nilsson reading the interview do not have the advantage we have here on TRF: That other members from other cultures point out that: Hey, it isn't just because of Scandinavia the sun rise each morning! Eh Marg? ;)

The problem is of course that the unresolved problem still persists:
Who is Madeleine? Is she Princess Madeleine who also happens to Mrs. O'Neil?
Or is she Mrs. O'Neil who also happens to be a Princess?
In Norway they solved the problem by Märtha Louise opting out of the royal roadshow. That's (still) not the case in Sweden.
So until that is resolved Chris O'Neil is, whether he likes it or not, at least a semi-public figure and as such what he says and do get more attention. Also because he's still the new guy.
However in the interview he shows that he has realized that and acknowledged that he/they should have dealt with his situation in regards to the public differently and more openly and that is IMO praise worthy.
 
Chris also talks about how he wants to come home and have dinner with his family after a long day at work. Nothing wrong with that, but together with a lot of other remarks it gives us the impression that he's a 1950's kind of guy: he wants a housewife who takes care of the house and kids while he's working. And this is something very, very far away from how the average swede lives.

Everyone has the right to live their lives as they want, as long as you don't hurt anyone else. He's perfectly entitled to his thoughts and opinions, and as long as Madeleine is okay with it, I personally have no objections.

I hope that Chris and Madeleine have talked about how and how much they work, and have an agreement with that. The way Chris speaks about wanting to have a dinner with his family when he comes home from work, makes it sound like he doesn't want Madeleine to be at her work in Sweden very much.
Maybe Madeleine wants to be housewife mrs O'Neill, then everything is fine with them. But if Madeleine after her maternity leave(s) wants to be more HRH princess, there might be problems ahead.

I'm a Finn, a little older than xenobia, and in my whole life I have known two women of my own age or younger than me who haven't had a job and made their own money.
 
So instead of bread winner he should he have said " I'm the one bringing in the money on which we live " would that make everyone happy or is that wrong too.
They have to have money to live and he makes it what on earth is wrong with that he certainly doesn't deserve to be called names.


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If I were to advise him he should not have mentioned it at all. Everybody knows perfectly well that Chris earns the money in that family, so there is no need to point it out.

I can't say what the media reaction has been in Sweden but the two major Danish tabloids has used the "breadwinner" in their headlines in the articles covering this interview. And that says something.

I can't blame Chris for making a mistake if you can even call it a mistake. He's a novice in this. He is no doubt experienced in dealing with the press. But dealing with a foreign press on personal matters and in a different cultural context is a whole different matter.
So should he have asked for advise from the SRF Pr-office? Would have been a good idea. Should the Swedish court have offered to advise him? You bet!
Should Madeleine have told her husband a bit more on how Swedish mindset works? - Would have been a good idea IMO.
Should Chris O'Neil unfold his skull-finns and try to learn a little more about the culture of his wife's country? - Probably a good idea too.
 
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If I were to advise him he should not have mentioned it at all. Everybody knows perfectly well that Chris earns the money in that family, so there is no need to point it out.

I can't say what the media reaction has been in Sweden but the two major Danish tabloids has used the "breadwinner" in their headlines in the articles covering this interview. And that says something.

I can't blame Chris for making a mistake if you can even call it a mistake. He's a novice in this. He is no doubt experienced in dealing with the press. But dealing with a foreign press on personal matters and in a different cultural context is a whole different matter.
So should he have asked for advise from the SRF Pr-office? Would have been a good idea. Should the Swedish court have offered to advise him? You bet!
Should Madeleine have told her husband a bit more on how Swedish mindset works? - Would have been a good idea IMO.
Should Chris O'Neil unfold his skull-finns and try to learn a little more about the culture of his wife's country? - Probably a good idea too.
If I remember correctly the "breadwinner" line was what was used in the Swedish press as well, confirming that it was seen as something noteworthy and "clickable".

I don't agree thought that he shouldn't have mentioned it. There have been speculations (among people not as royally knowledgable as us) that they are living on royal money so I think it was good to point out that they are living at his money, especially since there have been focus on his Rolexes :p
 
I've certainly learned a lot about Swedish culture. I'm surprised monarchy is able to function in a society that is so politically correct.

Maybe in the future Chris and Madeleine will choose to live in London full-time and give up royal life in Sweden altogether.
 
My thoughts are that with all the "negative" type press surrounding Madeleine and Chris, he might have chosen his words a little more carefully. He had to have known that anything he said was going to be released (and possibly misinterpreted). Although, I'm not sure that the SRF's press department would have done him any favors by proofing it, they are not the best at press releases themselves. Maybe CP Victoria's press officer is should have looked it over. They seem to have the best grasp of media relations for the SRF.
 
My thoughts are that with all the "negative" type press surrounding Madeleine and Chris, he might have chosen his words a little more carefully. He had to have known that anything he said was going to be released (and possibly misinterpreted). Although, I'm not sure that the SRF's press department would have done him any favors by proofing it, they are not the best at press releases themselves. Maybe CP Victoria's press officer is should have looked it over. They seem to have the best grasp of media relations for the SRF.
I agree. But the general interview was rather good :) And I think he certainly are learning, which I've already given him praise for :) It's sad that they don't have a good PR-team... In todays age it is SO IMPORTANT and it makes me sad that they are not putting forward their best version. The PR team seems clumsy or outdated.
 
I agree. But the general interview was rather good :) And I think he certainly are learning, which I've already given him praise for :) It's sad that they don't have a good PR-team... In todays age it is SO IMPORTANT and it makes me sad that they are not putting forward their best version. The PR team seems clumsy or outdated.
Clumsy is a great word to describe the PR department for the SRF. I'm of the mind to send them a resume. It's got to be cooler there than here where I live. 106 yesterday! Ugh. So over this heat and summer. And goodness knows I could do a much better job.
 
Was that a jab at us or Swedes in general? We very much said we accepted it but that it differs alot from our general experiences. That is not at all non-tolerant.

Some Swedes on this board and the public in general....first the furor over Sofia's past and now the flap about what Chris has said. When words like 'sexist' (among others) are used it doesn't seem like tolerance to me.


LaRae
 
Some Swedes on this board and the public in general....first the furor over Sofia's past and now the flap about what Chris has said. When words like 'sexist' (among others) are used it doesn't seem like tolerance to me.


LaRae
I can't remember much (if any) furor about Sofia being from Swedes (I could be wrong). I think it can be summarized as Swedes are not very tolerant of non-tolerance. So sexism and racism are like the biggest taboos over here.
 
Personally he could have worded it better.

And btw some seem to think that Sweden is this ultra feminist pc country, but they are only a bit more aware of sexism then other countries. See the headlines and the comments here by the Swedish posters confirms it. Chris won't get burned on the stake now lmao.
 
Personally he could have worded it better.

And btw some seem to think that Sweden is this ultra feminist pc country, but they are only a bit more aware of sexism then other countries. See the headlines and the comments here by the Swedish posters confirms it. Chris won't get burned on the stake now lmao.
Exactly!! Thank you for wording it so nicely! We are not some power hungry women burning people at stakes. Here Feminism means equality for all (well... there are a few bad seeds that makes the rest of feminism look bad) and not mans hate :p
 
I can't remember much (if any) furor about Sofia being from Swedes (I could be wrong). I think it can be summarized as Swedes are not very tolerant of non-tolerance. So sexism and racism are like the biggest taboos over here.

What is precisely non-tolerance?

I have read the whole discussion about Chris' interview. Although I do agree "breadwinner" wasn't the best word to use in a swedish context, and althought I do too understand how what he said can sound old-fashioned (to say the least), I fail to see why it is shocking when a woman in a couple does not have her own income. When a couple can afford it to have only one income, why should it be interpreted as a misogynist choice?
I am not advocating the model "daddy is working, mummy is at home being a housekeeper", but sometimes, too much love of equality is preventing people to do what they really want to do. An example. If we could afford it, even with no children at home, I would quit working and do a lot of things I would thoroughly enjoy, even if not providing an income. For a lot of people we know, it would be highly sexist. However, it would be our choice and it wouldn't prevent my husband to be in favor of salaries equality and against all discriminations against women. But a kind of feminism wouldn't understand a woman can willingly choose not to work (to say nothing about the middle-upper-class feminist activist who are stilling failing to understand woman are sometimes bound to stay at home for nursery fees can be higher than a woman income, and therefore do nothing for against it).

I have a feeling it is the same with some other matters (most of the times related with religion and women). When someone do not agree with the majority's opinion, no matter he has never insulted, harassed or made a disrepectful comment on anybody. The simple fact he disagrees, even if he is always very respectful towards people whose behaviour he disapproves, will have him labelled as old-fashioned, sexist, misogynist, hateful.

Sometimes, a too strong love of equality and tolerance leads to an unability to understand that the one with whom we disagree may have very good reason not to agree with us.

That is not at all against Sweden or swedish society : I have met the same in France. It explain a lot of clashes. And that won't prevent me to travel, when I am able too, in Sweden, a country I would very much like to discover.
 
:previous:

I agree. This is kind of a problem here in Sweden. We are working so hard towards equality that it can sometimes hinder personality. But the pendelum has to swing hard the other way first to later hang in the middle :p

So we are really, honestly not complaining about Chris or Madeleine and their life choice. At least I honestly am not. But merely putting it into a general Swedish context.
 
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I always had the impression that the Swedish society was fairly democratic, but I think it's appalling that someone who is a conservative is perceived as a problem.

That proves I'm right when I think the more the person is on the left of the political spectrum, the more he/she is unable to deal with different opinions and ideologies.
 
My problem with women who isn't working is that I've seen examples - from friends abroad and from an older generation here - is that she's not always able make the life choices she wants to. (The same would apply to a man who is supported by his wife). My husband makes more money than me, but I'm working as well and bringing money to the household. I could manage well on my own. If our relationship breaks down, I can support myself.

Here in Sweden, you have to pay child support (but a low sum) if you divorce and have kids. But a husband isn't required to support his ex-wife in any way, like he is in the US.

I don't think that Madeleine and the kids would be on welfare if their marriage broke down. She has her own money. If she makes the choice to not work, I'm fine with that. But most women who want some kind of control over their own destiny have to be able to support themselves.
 
I always had the impression that the Swedish society was fairly democratic, but I think it's appalling that someone who is a conservative is perceived as a problem.

That proves I'm right when I think the more the person is on the left of the political spectrum, the more he/she is unable to deal with different opinions and ideologies.
He's not at all seen as a problem. What makes you say that? We're just saying his views are rather unusual here. It would be like saying "Muslim views are rather unusual in the Vatican". It's not racist, just noting that the persons ideologi is not the norm in that particular place. I am very open to his views, and have found this "discussion" very informaative and facinating.
 
He's not at all seen as a problem. What makes you say that? We're just saying his views are rather unusual here. It would be like saying "Muslim views are rather unusual in the Vatican". It's not racist, just noting that the persons ideologi is not the norm in that particular place. I am very open to his views, and have found this "discussion" very informaative and facinating.

Well, some of the post here made me think that the swedes are not very open to different opinions, especially conservative and right-wings ones. I hope I'm wrong.

I teach History in a major university here in Brazil and I'm alway appalled to see how my left-wings students are totally unable to deal with opinions different from theirs.

And I happen to be a right-wing conservative, a monarchist and traditionalist Catholic. So you can imagine how difficult things can be sometimes.
 
Well, some of the post here made me think that the swedes are not very open to different opinions, especially conservative and right-wings ones. I hope I'm wrong.

I teach History in a major university here in Brazil and I'm alway appalled to see how my left-wings students are totally unable to deal with opinions different from theirs.

And I happen to be a right-wing conservative, a monarchist and traditionalist Catholic. So you can imagine how difficult things can be sometimes.
And I have had the same experience with conservatives (although I'm considered a rather conservative here...). There are open and close minded people on all sides of the spectrum just as there are in countries, genders, religions, sexual orientations. etc.

Also, you are mentioning students? In teens/young adult age you are usually more "extreme" in your views and it widens when you get experiences. Plus, it's the more extreme ones thaat will be vocal in class, so yoou wouldn't hear much of it from the more "normal" left-wings.
 
And let's not forget that what's considered "left" in one country is "right" in another :flowers:
 
Let's return to Chris for a while.

What is the opinion in the street and in the media of the interview?
 
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