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  #261  
Old 09-26-2015, 09:13 AM
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Well hopefully soon she will be able work out a plan that will work for her and her family .....and if she is going to carry on doing duties for the crown ......
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  #262  
Old 09-26-2015, 10:31 AM
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MARG, your rationale is spot on! 100000% agree with each word.

I believe the decision to make Madeleine and Chris' children HRH's and Prince/ss of Sweden were not theirs.

Rumours are that Madeleine did indeed plan to relinquish her HRH status upon marrying Chris but that her father would not have it.



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  #263  
Old 09-26-2015, 10:56 AM
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Rumours are that Madeleine did indeed plan to relinquish her HRH status upon marrying Chris but that her father would not have it.



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I don't believe that for a second and I don't think that this is something people critizised her for. She's a born princess, why give up her title, even when she's not working for the crown. Its who she is.
And as a sidenote: it is important for her, she likes to be the glamour princess showing up at the A-class events.

The titles for a children are a very different matter though.
  #264  
Old 09-26-2015, 11:21 AM
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I don't believe that for a second and I don't think that this is something people critizised her for. She's a born princess, why give up her title, even when she's not working for the crown. Its who she is.
And as a sidenote: it is important for her, she likes to be the glamour princess showing up at the A-class events.

The titles for a children are a very different matter though.

Who said anything about her being criticised for being HRH?! At least I didn't. That she wanted to relinquish her status is something I've heard from several different sources so it might be true but then again it might not be. I for one wouldn't be surprised if the former. It suits in the overall picture I have of both Madeleine as not at all comfortable in her Royal role and The King who's been striving for a more secure Line of Succession ever since he came into office.

Her children's titles might seem strange to some but are, to me, consistent with how the Court have interpreted the changes to the Act of Succession from 1979.


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  #265  
Old 09-26-2015, 11:24 AM
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If Madeleine wanted to relinquish her titles why when she was first engaged to Jonas was it announced that he would become a duke. I think Madeleine enjoys her life as a princess without really wanting to take on much responsibility.
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  #266  
Old 09-26-2015, 11:43 AM
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Surely whether or not the children have a title is not the same issue as whether or not they stay in the line of succession. I understand every country is different but it seems plenty of other countries allow royals without titles, or HRH at least, to remain in the succession - the UK has the Wessex children (Viscount Severn and Lady Louise) as well as Anne's children (Zara Tindal and Peter Phillips), Norway has the daughters of Martha Louise and even the younger children of the Crown Prince don't have HRH but just HH, Denmark have the children of Prince Joachim who are HH, Spain have the children of the King's sisters.

Personally I think if Madeleine didn't want her children to have titles she could simply have asked her father to allow this, even if the children were legally HRH Prince/Princess if the Royal Court insisted on referring to them without these titles as Leonore O'Neil or Leonore Bernodotte O'Neil eventually it would become the norm.

IMO Madeleine either needs to adopt a more professional approach to her royal duties or give them. I'm sorry if it sounds mean and uncaring but you can't always drop out of things at the last minute because the 'children have to come first'. Absolutely, of course children are important, but if you make a commitment to be somewhere or do something or to represent a charity it should take more than children being children to stop you attending especially when the children have a father who by the looks of it would rather stay at home with them anyway. I think its bad form that Madeleine clearly wants to be a Princess but won't pull her weight. Its always the same, cancel engagements here and there, the media rightly point this out, Madeleine comes home, does a week or so of engagements in Sweden to get good PR then disappears again.
  #267  
Old 09-26-2015, 06:44 PM
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If Madeleine wanted to relinquish her titles why when she was first engaged to Jonas was it announced that he would become a duke. I think Madeleine enjoys her life as a princess without really wanting to take on much responsibility.
I think your total right about Madeleine enjoying her life as princess and not wanting the responsibility .....
  #268  
Old 09-26-2015, 08:16 PM
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If Madeleine wanted to relinquish her titles why when she was first engaged to Jonas was it announced that he would become a duke. I think Madeleine enjoys her life as a princess without really wanting to take on much responsibility.
At no time was Madeleine going to relinquish her right to be what she was born, namely a princess. As to her HRH status, I am not sure. However, the situation with Jonas was totally different to that of Chris in that Jonas was quite happy to become the Duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland. He was urbane, cultured, a member or their social set and he was Swedish and lived in Sweden.

Chris, on the other hand, was never going to be anything other than what he is, a businessman, and he never intended to live in Sweden. He declined a title and the requisite Swedish citizenship which would have required him to relinquish his dual American and British citizenship.

Madeleine was born a Princess of Sweden. It is not a matter of wanting to be one, she is one. Just as the King's sisters are still all Princesses, so is Madeleine and she surely has the right to enjoy being who she is. The idea of responsibility or lack of the same has nothing to do with it.

As to Tommy's assertion that "if Madeleine didn't want her children to have titles she could simply have asked her father to allow this totally misses the point, namely her family history! However, if they are living in London and Victoria and Daniel are safely delivered of an heir, things will loosen up considerably and even more so when and if Carl Philip and Sofia have a child or children.

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IMO Madeleine either needs to adopt a more professional approach to her royal duties or give them. I'm sorry if it sounds mean and uncaring but you can't always drop out of things at the last minute because the 'children have to come first'.
Actually I think she is quite professional. She is entitled to Parental Leave, and yes you are, as you say, harsh and uncaring. We do not even know if the children come into this at all, merely that it is possible. It is also possible, if not probable, that Madeleine herself is unable to attend.

Whatever the reason, I wish people would stop demanding that Madeleine become more "professional". Common decency should give her a little time and space after the wedding, two children and three country shift in three years!
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  #269  
Old 09-26-2015, 08:26 PM
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At no time was Madeleine going to relinquish her right to be what she was born, namely a princess. As to her HRH status, I am not sure. However, the situation with Jonas was totally different to that of Chris in that Jonas was quite happy to become the Duke of Hälsingland and Gästrikland. He was urbane, cultured, a member or their social set and he was Swedish and lived in Sweden.

Chris, on the other hand, was never going to be anything other than what he is, a businessman, and he never intended to live in Sweden. He declined a title and the requisite Swedish citizenship which would have required him to relinquish his dual American and British citizenship.

Madeleine was born a Princess of Sweden. It is not a matter of wanting to be one, she is one. Just as the King's sisters are still all Princesses, so is Madeleine and she surely has the right to enjoy being who she is. The idea of responsibility or lack of the same has nothing to do with it.

As to Tommy's assertion that "if Madeleine didn't want her children to have titles she could simply have asked her father to allow this totally misses the point, namely her family history! However, if they are living in London and Victoria and Daniel are safely delivered of an heir, things will loosen up considerably and even more so when and if Carl Philip and Sofia have a child or children.

Actually I think she is quite professional. She is entitled to Parental Leave, and yes you are, as you say, harsh and uncaring. We do not even know if the children come into this at all, merely that it is possible. It is also possible, if not probable, that Madeleine herself is unable to attend.

Whatever the reason, I wish people would stop demanding that Madeleine become more "professional". Common decency should give her a little time and space after the wedding, two children and three country shift in three years!
I am agreeing with you 100% on this, Marg. The upset with Madeleine I always find puzzling.
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  #270  
Old 09-26-2015, 09:46 PM
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Who said anything about her being criticised for being HRH?! At least I didn't. That she wanted to relinquish her status is something I've heard from several different sources so it might be true but then again it might not be. I for one wouldn't be surprised if the former. It suits in the overall picture I have of both Madeleine as not at all comfortable in her Royal role and The King who's been striving for a more secure Line of Succession ever since he came into office.

Her children's titles might seem strange to some but are, to me, consistent with how the Court have interpreted the changes to the Act of Succession from 1979.


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As legitimate descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf, Madeleine's children would always be in the line of succession unless otherwise excluded under the Act of Succession e.g. for not being members of the Church of Sweden, or for not being raised in Sweden. In principle, their succession rights have nothing to do then IMHO with whether they are titled or not.

The confusion in this case seems to come from the fact that, although not saying that explicitly, the Act of Succession seems to imply that all persons in the line of succession, i.e currently only the legitimate descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf, also hold the title of prince or princess of Sweden. Belgium BTW has a similar problem as far as the descendants of King Albert II are concerned, but for a different reason (apparently a royal decree to that end issued by the late King Baudouin). Both the Swedish and Belgian practices stand in contrast to other monarchies, e.g. the UK, the Netherlands, Spain, or Norway, where it is perfectly possible to be in the line of succession without being an HRH.

As I see it, the issue would be solved if the parliament of Sweden, upon proposal of the Swedish government, passed legislation, along the lines e.g. of the Dutch model, explicitly regulating membership of the Royal House and royal titles and styles. Again, there is no need to tie succession rights to a particular title.

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Madeleine was born a Princess of Sweden. It is not a matter of wanting to be one, she is one. Just as the King's sisters are still all Princesses, so is Madeleine and she surely has the right to enjoy being who she is. The idea of responsibility or lack of the same has nothing to do with it.
None of the King's sisters are in the line of succession and, with the exception of Princess Birgitta, the King's sisters are not HRHs. They are referred to as "princesses" by courtesy only.

As for Madeleine relinquishing her title, I sincerely don't know how she could have done it. Apparently, there is no legal norm explicitly regulating who is a prince or princess of Sweden. In the past , King Carl Gustaf's uncles lost their HRH titles though when they were removed from the line of succession (for example Prince Sigvard of Sweden, Duke of Uppland, became Count Sigvard Bernadotte). If the same rule applied to Madeleine (I'm not sure it does !), she could relinquish her sucession rights and, by implication, also give up her title, if she ceased to profess the Lutheran faith, or married without the consent of the Swedish government, or became the sovereign of another country without the consent of the king and the parliament of Sweden.

Other than the situations described above, as a legitimate descendant of King Carl XVI Gustaf, Madeleine could only be removed from the line of succession IMHO by an amendment to the Act of Succession itself. As we know though, since the Act of Succession is a fundamental law, an amendment thereto would require two votes in the Swedish parliament with a general election in between, as was the case in 1979.
  #271  
Old 09-27-2015, 01:17 AM
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Actually I think she is quite professional. She is entitled to Parental Leave, and yes you are, as you say, harsh and uncaring. We do not even know if the children come into this at all, merely that it is possible. It is also possible, if not probable, that Madeleine herself is unable to attend.
Margareta Thorgren said to the press that Madeleine doesn't attend to My Big Day and WCF event because of the children. Queen Silvia said in New York that Madeleine is very sorry she can't attend but "she couldn't leave the little man, he is only three months old".

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It would be much better if she said that she was on full-time parental leave and stayed with the kids in London. Then - if everything worked out well at home - she could turn up as a surprise visitor on different occasions, and make people happily surprised (instead of disappointed when she promises and then cancel).
This would be a great way to do, it is a pity that Madeleine hadn't thought about that.
  #272  
Old 09-27-2015, 01:43 AM
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Margareta Thorgren said to the press that Madeleine doesn't attend to My Big Day and WCF event because of the children. Queen Silvia said in New York that Madeleine is very sorry she can't attend but "she couldn't leave the little man, he is only three months old".



This would be a great way to do, it is a pity that Madeleine hadn't thought about that.
Because a full maternity leave would mean she'd rule herself out as glamour princess for the main events, such as the parliament.

To me accepting events (one of them in NY) and than cancelling them - while attending the opening of the parliament only days earlier - is very unprofessional. To me it seems that Madeleine still wants to pick and chose the best out of both worlds and is failing.
  #273  
Old 09-27-2015, 04:00 AM
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Because a full maternity leave would mean she'd rule herself out as glamour princess for the main events, such as the parliament.
Is this a bad thing? Being a glamour princess? And enjoying it? Glamour princess seems like the ideal kind of princess to be, and to enjoy it, to boot. Much better than a frumpy princess, don't you think? Who's all cross and snippety?
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  #274  
Old 09-27-2015, 04:20 AM
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If she want to be a glamour princess and take part only to a glamour events then Yes i think is problem.
  #275  
Old 09-27-2015, 04:33 AM
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Because a full maternity leave would mean she'd rule herself out as glamour princess for the main events, such as the parliament.

To me accepting events (one of them in NY) and than cancelling them - while attending the opening of the parliament only days earlier - is very unprofessional. To me it seems that Madeleine still wants to pick and chose the best out of both worlds and is failing.
That's my point which got so much criticism, I don't mind or care if Madeleine doesn't want to do another royal duty in her life at all, my issue is with how she says she is going to attend something then at the last minute cancels, that IMO is unprofessional to do so often. Of course children come first and are 'unpredictable' but plenty of other working people and even royals have small children and manage to turn up to work.
  #276  
Old 09-27-2015, 05:05 AM
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If she want to be a glamour princess and take part only to a glamour events then Yes i think is problem.
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Is this a bad thing? Being a glamour princess? And enjoying it? Glamour princess seems like the ideal kind of princess to be, and to enjoy it, to boot. Much better than a frumpy princess, don't you think? Who's all cross and snippety?
Absolutely. Is enjoying being a princess a sin? Does it really actually matter? It is not as if they are paying for her. The King's sister(s) occasionally appear at glamour events, perhaps we should tell them they can't just do the glamour events either?

I am absolutely confounded by the amount of passionate bile spouted against Madeleine. There seems no rhyme nor reason for such hostile reactions. She no longer lives full time in Sweden, and yes she has cancelled several appearances, some for unstated reasons and the last for a sick child. I would have thought that would be an end to it, but instead it seems to merely be yet more fuel on the fire judging by this last outpouring of meanness of spirit showing an almost total paucity of empathy.
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  #277  
Old 09-27-2015, 05:22 AM
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Nobody here knows personally imagine the Madeleine as well as any other royal. Neither think anyone dislikes someone royal or have any empathy with anyone. Seeing the events everyone here has the opinion and making it. It is pleasing to all this or not is another story.
  #278  
Old 09-27-2015, 05:27 AM
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Is this a bad thing? Being a glamour princess? And enjoying it? Glamour princess seems like the ideal kind of princess to be, and to enjoy it, to boot. Much better than a frumpy princess, don't you think? Who's all cross and snippety?
No its not a bad thing in general, but being a representative of a country is more than that. No problem with being a glamour princess on the big events when you do the bread and butter events, too. When you're being approached by the common folk.
But this is something Madeleine doesnt like to do, the last time she tried in ended in a desaster, when she visited her(!) duchy and refused to give interviews other than 'I am happy to be here'.
  #279  
Old 09-27-2015, 07:19 AM
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Because a full maternity leave would mean she'd rule herself out as glamour princess for the main events, such as the parliament.

To me accepting events (one of them in NY) and than cancelling them - while attending the opening of the parliament only days earlier - is very unprofessional. To me it seems that Madeleine still wants to pick and chose the best out of both worlds and is failing.
I agree. Besides, the World Childhood Foundation and My Big Day are Madeleine's main personal projects as a member of the royal house. In fact, as you may recall it, the priest (pastor ?) who celebrated Madeleine's wedding even singled out those two projects in his homily as examples of Madeleine's finding her calling to help children. In many ways, it was more important for Madeleine to be at a My Big Day event in Sweden than to be at the state opening of parliament where, constitutionally speaking, the King and perhaps the Crown Princess as the future reigning queen are the only members of the royal family who actually must be there.

To be fair though, we don't know if Madeleine had a choice about going to the opening of parliament or not. King Carl Gustaf seems to want all his children and children-in-law to attend such state events, as shown by the fact that CP and Sofia were also there. It may be the case that he "ordered" Madeleine to attend and she couldn't say no. As you remember, she skipped the evening concert though and, I suppose, probably flew back to London.
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Old 09-27-2015, 03:22 PM
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To be fair though, we don't know if Madeleine had a choice about going to the opening of parliament or not. King Carl Gustaf seems to want all his children and children-in-law to attend such state events, as shown by the fact that CP and Sofia were also there. It may be the case that he "ordered" Madeleine to attend and she couldn't say no. As you remember, she skipped the evening concert though and, I suppose, probably flew back to London.
Excellent points. One really does not know the real why's and where-fore's for her actions. Ascribing to her adolescent and venal motives is just accusatory with no basis in facts. IMO.
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