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  #761  
Old 02-15-2020, 12:50 PM
Muhler's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
A second question for the experts on the Danish royal family: At the time of Prince Nikolai's birth, was it the expectation that he and his future siblings would have an official role with the monarchy? If that was the case, when and why did the change of plans take place?

I also remain curious about the flag days.
No flag for Nikolai, he is not an active member of the DRF. Nor is he a child of the Monarch.
I don't think that rule is chiseled in stone though, it's simply up to the Monarch.

I don't recall much talk, specifically about Nikolai and later Felix, when they were small in regards to their future roles.
It was very much expected that Frederik would eventually marry and given his track-record of having female sweethearts, there were few problems in the horizon regarding off springs. (*) - Even though QMII was actually asked directly whether a future wife of Frederik should be blue-blooded. QMII retorted by replying that she wouldn't demand a blood-sample.
Anyway, for years during the 90's and very early 00's Joachim and Alexandra were the de facto cp-couple, both in regards to roles they had but also very much in the eyes of a wide segment of the public, so while it wasn't perhaps discussed at the coffee tables, the idea of a future king Nikolai wasn't that far off at the time.

As for Ingolf and his branch of the family.
He's brighter than he looks (a DK idiom). He has been the bridge-builder between the two branches of the family, because it is no secret (Ingolf has repeated that in an interview in BB this week BTW) that the transfer of the linage to Frederik IX's children caused quite a lot of bitterness and disappointment in Prince Knud's side of the family. And even though it has been denied, there is little doubt that it strained the relationship between the two brothers. (There has been rumors that Knud to at least some extent blamed Queen Ingrid. She had ambitions on behalf of her children etc. and while Frederik IX no doubt loved his brother, he was also very much a devoted husband and father.)
Now, this is just a thought of mine, QMII was and is fiercely devoted to her father. And being a teen at the time of the transfer in 1953, she would have been able to witness and understand first hand the bitterness and the strain on the family relations at the time and I cannot free myself from the thought that QMII once she became queen, sided totally with her parents.
And perhaps reinforced by the strain of taking over when she was so young, and felt so unprepared, combined with the grief of losing her father, I don't think the Knud side of the family got much sympathy or understanding from QMII. - Queens are only humans and sometimes they act like humans...

Because it is very clear that the two sides of the family did not wear out each others doormats!
It was Ingolf who was the go-between and who managed to reestablish a good relationship with in particular Joachim, but also the rest of QMII's branch.
From interviews we have learned that, while Knud may have been able to understand his brother's position - at least to some extent - there was considerable resentment within his family. Again, children tend to side with their parents.

In this weeks BB interview, mentioned here: https://www.bt.dk/royale/han-kunne-v...-der-alligevel

Ingolf comments on the transfer of linage like this:
Dét er, som det er, og ikke noget, jeg borer i eller bruger tid på. Tidligere var det til tider svært i og for familien, og som Dronningen (Margrethe, red.) så rigtigt sagde i udsendelsen om kong Frederik IX, så var det især en svær tid for 'onkel', altså min far. Men jeg bruger ikke tid på den slags. Man skal ikke dvæle ved ting, der alligevel ikke kan laves om eller gøres noget ved

"It is as it is, and it is not something I go into or spend time on. Previously it was at times difficult within and for the family and as the Queen so rightly said in the documentary about King Frederik IX, it was in particular a difficult time for -uncle,- that is, my father. But I don't spend time on that sort of things. You shouldn't dwell on things that cannot be undone or changed."

(*) There was some public concern in the 60's that princess Margrethe hadn't found someone or even dated anyone.
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  #762  
Old 02-15-2020, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricarda View Post
Such a load of nonsense! Because of something she said during her last birthday celebration she is exspected to abdicate this year?
She has also said - repeatedly - that abdication is no option for her, as long as she is in good health. So, unless she is seriously ill - which we haven't heard of yet - I don't see her abdicating at all, and certainly not this year. Besides, in only 2 years - in January 2022 - she will be able to celebrate her 50th throne jubilee and with her fondness of being celebrated by the Danes I doubt that she is going to miss that opportunity - so, I definitely don't see an abdication before January 2022, if at all.
It is British "press" dear. Lie after lie glued together. The paper is not even worth to be used in a cat litter box.
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  #763  
Old 02-15-2020, 12:59 PM
Muhler's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
It does seem odd that the Queen continued to refuse approval to Princess Elisabeth after granting approval for Prince Joachim to marry a commoner without giving up his princely status. (Claus Hermansen was still living when Prince Joachim married for the first time.)

It is not clear to me whether the Queen had different standards for princes and princesses (on that basis we could expect Isabella, Josephine, and Athena to become commoners one day, while their brothers remain princes), for the main line and collateral lines (on that basis we could expect the Crown Prince's children to remain princes and princesses while Prince Joachim's sons are demoted to counts and his daughter to commoner), or for the older and younger generations (on that basis we could expect all of the Queen's grandchildren to keep their princely status).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But we don't know of Prienss Elisabeth ever has asked her cousin if she would give her cosnent to a possible marriage to Claus Hermansen. Could also be that Princess Elisabeth assumed that she would loose her Titel if she married him.
I think Princess Elisabeth sounded out what would happen should she marry. And that she would lose her title, should she do so.
There is a brutal logic to that BTW, I.e. continuously reducing the number of full royals. And the fact that her brothers lost their titles as well.
And the decision is down to the Monarch (except in the case of the Heir) as to whether a member of the family looses the title or not. So apart from Joachim being the son of the Monarch and (at the time) a potential spare, QMII had and has the right to treat him differently from Elisabeth.
And there is also the thought that apart from Elisabeth not being particularly conventional in regards to the status of her relationship with her partner, that she also wanted to be a living reminder that her branch of the family was so to speak saying: "We are still here! And we still have royal blood!"
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  #764  
Old 02-15-2020, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is British "press" dear. Lie after lie glued together. The paper is not even worth to be used in a cat litter box.
The article is based on an Australian podcast so it's not just the British this time.
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  #765  
Old 02-15-2020, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
The article is based on an Australian podcast so it's not just the British this time.
So this is probably based on a certain Australian's hopes rather than actual facts
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  #766  
Old 02-15-2020, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Eskimo View Post
So this is probably based on a certain Australian's hopes rather than actual facts
After listening to the podcast it's clear that they haven't got a clue about what they're talking about
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  #767  
Old 02-15-2020, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
No flag for Nikolai, he is not an active member of the DRF. Nor is he a child of the Monarch.
I don't think that rule is chiseled in stone though, it's simply up to the Monarch.

I don't recall much talk, specifically about Nikolai and later Felix, when they were small in regards to their future roles.
It was very much expected that Frederik would eventually marry and given his track-record of having female sweethearts, there were few problems in the horizon regarding off springs. - Even though QMII was actually asked directly whether a future wife of Frederik should be blue-blooded. QMII retorted by replying that she wouldn't demand a blood-sample.
Anyway, for years during the 90's and very early 00's Joachim and Alexandra were the de facto cp-couple, but in regards to roles they had but also very much in the eyes of a wide segment of the public, so while it wasn't perhaps discussed at the coffee tables, the idea of a future king Nikolai wasn't that far off at the time.

As for Ingolf and his branch of the family.
He's brighter than he looks (a DK idiom). He has been the bridge-builder between the two branches of the family, because it is no secret (Ingolf has repeated that in an interview in BB this week BTW) that the transfer of the linage to Frederik IX's children caused quite a lot of bitterness and disappointment in Prince Knud's side of the family. And even though it has been denied, there is little doubt that it strained the relationship between the two brothers. (There has been rumors that Knud to at least some extent blamed Queen Ingrid. She had ambitions on behalf of her children etc. and while Frederik IX no doubt loved his brother, he was also very much a devoted husband and father.)
Now, this is just a thought of mine, QMII was and is fiercely devoted to her father. And being a teen at the time of the transfer in 1953, she would have been able to witness and understand first hand the bitterness and the strain on the family relations at the time and I cannot free myself from the thought that QMII once she became queen, sided totally with her parents.
And perhaps reinforced by the strain of taking over when she was so young, and felt so unprepared, combined with the grief of losing her father, I don't think the Knud side of the family got much sympathy or understanding from QMII. - Queens are only humans and sometimes they act like humans...

Because it is very clear that the two sides of the family did not wear out each others doormats!
It was Ingolf who was the go-between and who managed to reestablish a good relationship with in particular Joachim, but also the rest of QMII's branch.
From interviews we have learned that, while Knud may have been able to understand his brother's position - at least to some extent - there was considerable resentment within his family. Again, children tend to side with their parents.

In this weeks BB interview, mentioned here: https://www.bt.dk/royale/han-kunne-v...-der-alligevel

Ingolf comments on the transfer of linage like this:
Dét er, som det er, og ikke noget, jeg borer i eller bruger tid på. Tidligere var det til tider svært i og for familien, og som Dronningen (Margrethe, red.) så rigtigt sagde i udsendelsen om kong Frederik IX, så var det især en svær tid for 'onkel', altså min far. Men jeg bruger ikke tid på den slags. Man skal ikke dvæle ved ting, der alligevel ikke kan laves om eller gøres noget ved

"It is as it is, and it is not something I go into or spend time on. Previously it was at times difficult within and for the family and as the Queen so rightly said in the documentary about King Frederik IX, it was in particular a difficult time for -uncle,- that is, my father. But I don't spend time on that sort of things. You shouldn't dwell on things that cannot be undone or changed."
Thank you for the informative answers!

Count Ingolf is certainly worthy of admiration both for calmly carrying on in the face of the public attacks on his appearance and intelligence as a child, and for taking it upon himself as an adult to mend a rift for which he and his generation bore no responsibility.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
I think Princess Elisabeth sounded out what would happen should she marry. And that she would lose her title, should she do so.
There is a brutal logic to that BTW, I.e. continuously reducing the number of full royals. And the fact that her brothers lost their titles as well.
And the decision is down to the Monarch (except in the case of the Heir) as to whether a member of the family looses the title or not. So apart from Joachim being the son of the Monarch and (at the time) a potential spare, QMII had and has the right to treat him differently from Elisabeth.
And there is also the thought that apart from Elisabeth not being particularly conventional in regards to the status of her relationship with her partner, that she also wanted to be a living reminder that her branch of the family was so to speak saying: "We are still here! And we still have royal blood!"

Under the current Act of Succession, the Heir would also face automatic removal from the order of succession if he married without the Queen's approval in the Council of State. Because of this the Queen did give approval for the marriage of the Crown Prince in a Council of State in 2003.
§ 5
[...]
(3) If a person who is entitled to succeed to the throne decides to marry without the King’s or reigning Queen’s consent which shall be given during a meeting of the Council of State, he/she forfeits his/her right to succeed to the throne and so do his/her children born in lawful wedlock and their issue.
Indeed, the Queen and Government have the legal right to treat different members of the family differently - but I hope the different treatment is on the basis of a consistent standard.
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  #768  
Old 02-15-2020, 01:43 PM
Muhler's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Thank you for the informative answers!

Count Ingolf is certainly worthy of admiration both for calmly carrying on in the face of the public attacks on his appearance and intelligence as a child, and for taking it upon himself as an adult to mend a rift for which he and his generation bore no responsibility.





Under the current Act of Succession, the Heir would also face automatic removal from the order of succession if he married without the Queen's approval in the Council of State.
§ 5
[...]
(3) If a person who is entitled to succeed to the throne decides to marry without the King’s or reigning Queen’s consent which shall be given during a meeting of the Council of State, he/she forfeits his/her right to succeed to the throne and so do his/her children born in lawful wedlock and their issue.
Indeed, the Queen and Government have the legal right to treat different members of the family differently - but I hope the different treatment is on the basis of a consistent standard.
I couldn't agree more with you in regards to Ingolf.

The paragraph is there to prevent a royal from marrying someone "inappropriate", in particular the Heir!
But in regards to those further down the line, it's really up to the Monarch to remove and bestow titles. And while the Parliament would no doubt like to be informed and consulted, it's not something they would interfere with unless it was strictly necessary I'm convinced.
In theory, QMII could strip Joachim of his title tomorrow if she really wanted to. It would cause quite a stir! But in theory she could do it. She is the Monarch and she is the head of the family.
It's a useful power to have. Let's for a moment imagine Joachim got repeatedly drunk while in France and now he has been observed, for the third time, marching around the Eiffel Tower, wearing only a bow-tie singing: "I got two legs from my hips to the ground and when I move them, they walk around..."
Then QMII can and would probably be encouraged to strip him of his royal titles.
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  #769  
Old 02-15-2020, 03:49 PM
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Personally I find Count Ingolf a totally admirable human being . Certainly other " spare heirs ",could have taken his [ and his spouses ]behaviour as an example .
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  #770  
Old 04-18-2020, 06:23 AM
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It is often speculated whether QMII will abdicate and one argument for doing that is that Frederik shouldn't be another Prince Charles, but take over in his prime. (An argument that appeals to me BTW.)

So here is a copy-pasted list of the age when a number of Danish monarchs took over. In reverse chronological order:

Margrethe 2.: 31 år
Frederik d. 9: 48 år
Christian d. 10.:42 år
Frederik d. 8.: 63 år
Christian d. 9: 45 år
Frederik d. 7.: 40 år
Christian d. 8.: 53 år
Frederik d. 6.: 40 år
Christian d. 7: 16 år
Frederik d. 5.: 23 år
Christian d. 6.: 31 år
Frederik d. 4.: 28 år
Christian d. 5.: 24 år
Frederik d. 3.:39 år
Christian d. 4.:11 år
Frederik d. 2.: 25 år
Christian d. 3.: 31 år
Frederik d. 1.: 52 år
Christian d. 2. 32 år
Hans: 27 år
Christian d. 1.: 22 år
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  #771  
Old 04-18-2020, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
It is often speculated whether QMII will abdicate and one argument for doing that is that Frederik shouldn't be another Prince Charles, but take over in his prime. (An argument that appeals to me BTW.)

So here is a copy-pasted list of the age when a number of Danish monarchs took over. In reverse chronological order:

Margrethe 2.: 31 år
Frederik d. 9: 48 år
Christian d. 10.:42 år
Frederik d. 8.: 63 år
Christian d. 9: 45 år
Frederik d. 7.: 40 år
Christian d. 8.: 53 år
Frederik d. 6.: 40 år
Christian d. 7: 16 år
Frederik d. 5.: 23 år
Christian d. 6.: 31 år
Frederik d. 4.: 28 år
Christian d. 5.: 24 år
Frederik d. 3.:39 år
Christian d. 4.:11 år
Frederik d. 2.: 25 år
Christian d. 3.: 31 år
Frederik d. 1.: 52 år
Christian d. 2. 32 år
Hans: 27 år
Christian d. 1.: 22 år
The ages remarkably correspond with the extending longevity of human life.
I would like to see Margrethe in a role alike Beatrix, enjoying ballets, concourses hippique, sculptures, grandchildren, attend State Banquets and royal events and see how well the son - in his prime- does the kingship.
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  #772  
Old 04-18-2020, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
It is often speculated whether QMII will abdicate and one argument for doing that is that Frederik shouldn't be another Prince Charles, but take over in his prime. (An argument that appeals to me BTW.)

So here is a copy-pasted list of the age when a number of Danish monarchs took over. In reverse chronological order:

Margrethe 2.: 31 år
Frederik d. 9: 48 år
Christian d. 10.:42 år
Frederik d. 8.: 63 år
Christian d. 9: 45 år
Frederik d. 7.: 40 år
Christian d. 8.: 53 år
Frederik d. 6.: 40 år
Christian d. 7: 16 år
Frederik d. 5.: 23 år
Christian d. 6.: 31 år
Frederik d. 4.: 28 år
Christian d. 5.: 24 år
Frederik d. 3.:39 år
Christian d. 4.:11 år
Frederik d. 2.: 25 år
Christian d. 3.: 31 år
Frederik d. 1.: 52 år
Christian d. 2. 32 år
Hans: 27 år
Christian d. 1.: 22 år

It should notice that nowadays people live longer. And about the queen's father: He was already over 40 when Margarethe was born when again Margarethe herself wasn't yet 30 when crown prince Frederick was born. And Frederick IX died at age of 72. There hardly is worry about second prince Charles case. Yes, Frederick has waited crown almost whole of his life but so have done and will do many other heirs when people are living older and older. Personally I don't see any reason why the queen should abdicate. It is her own decision.
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