The Future of the Danish Monarchy

[Countessmeout]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Well, since Nikolai was not present, I will say that he is not to have an official role with the DRF - or that he is unwilling to take on an official role.

I wonder if he will have a flag-day this year?
If he doesn't that is a further indication of him quietly leaving the DRF.
I wonder if he will renounce his title, perhaps when/if he marries?
That would be a logic consequence and also a good way to reduce the number of "full royals". In relation to the public it is not in the DRF interest to have too many royals around.

I never got the need to 'renounce a title'. What does reducing the number do? Do you pay a cheque out to every 'full royal'? Honestly I don't get the difference between him being Prince Nikolai, teacher or Mr Nikolai, teacher. Is there something I miss?

Logical consequence to what? That as an 18 year old student, who is not heir to the throne, he didn't join a big formal event? We may see him in years to come. But there is no need to rush him since he wont be king.

I never get when people who understand royalty are so quick to push the 'renounce royals' less royals.....I get people who don't understand royals, who seem to think a smaller royal family means less cost (like we pay royals on an individual bases and kicking the rest out would be cheaper). But I don't get why this excited anyone else.

Sorry, it is meant as a genuine honest question. I just fail to see the benefit of reduced number.

Honestly if the royal family sees a benefit, then it should be done from birth. Like next generation, only kids of the heir get the prince title. Stripping current princes of their title seems to punish them for nothing.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Countessmeout

I never got the need to 'renounce a title'. What does reducing the number do? Do you pay a cheque out to every 'full royal'? Honestly I don't get the difference between him being Prince Nikolai, teacher or Mr Nikolai, teacher. Is there something I miss?

Logical consequence to what? That as an 18 year old student, who is not heir to the throne, he didn't join a big formal event? We may see him in years to come. But there is no need to rush him since he wont be king.

I never get when people who understand royalty are so quick to push the 'renounce royals' less royals.....I get people who don't understand royals, who seem to think a smaller royal family means less cost (like we pay royals on an individual bases and kicking the rest out would be cheaper). But I don't get why this excited anyone else.

Hey, back off a little!

I'm attempting to analyze the implications of Nikolai not being present. I may be wrong, I may be right, but these are the thoughts that go through my head right now.
If you are in doubt as to what I mean kindly ask me, rather than going on the attack and state what you think I mean. Thank you.

Back to Nikolai.

Just like Elisabeth not going in the front door so to speak is an indication of her role in the DRF, (Which is inactive.) Nikolai not being present is IMO also an indication of his future role.
It's pretty much besides the point that he is only eighteen and a high school student. He is old enough to become Rigsforstander. His childhood is over.

Okay, if Nikolai does not wish to have an active role within the DRF, but as a consequence will have a professional career and an ordinary life. The title of Prince to Denmark, may be a problem. He can't be a fully ordinary person with that title and he can't pursue whatever career he want's to, because some choices may be politically or even publicly too controversial. In other words; he will be more free without a royal title.
A title that is pretty empty anyway, since his wife is unlikely to become a princess.
So a logic consequence IMO would be for him (and his siblings) to renounce their royal titles and do a Märtha instead. He's Count of Montpezat so he won't be completely without a title.

Another thing is the public view. In 25 years from now we must expect both J&M as well as M&F's children begin to have children of their own. If these children are also given royal titles, we will in 35 years have heaps of royals all over the place!
The problem with royals is that we can't have too few, then we'll end up like Japan. But we can't have too many either. Royals have to be exclusive and they have to be seen as being relevant. So about 10-15 in total is IMO about the max number for a country the size of Denmark, and perhaps most monarchies.

[Countessmeout]

I didn't assume anything. I asked a question. Wow didn't think asking a question would get someone so bent out of shape

I honestly asked what the value of having less Danish princes is to the Danish people? You voiced that the public would see it as a benefit. I simply inquired what this implied benefit was. I assumed someone who is spouting it, would be able to clarify for me. I apologize for thinking you could answer.

But don't worry I wont bother asking questions again. Wouldn't want to twist your stick more.

[Muhler]

Well, sorry if I interpreted your tone as aggressive. That's all too easy on an international board.

I think I've tried to answer your questions as best I can. If I'm still not clear don't hesitate to ask me again.

I also think this board would be pretty dull if we didn't "spout" out, as you put it, something once in a while.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Well, since Nikolai was not present, I will say that he is not to have an official role with the DRF - or that he is unwilling to take on an official role.

I wonder if he will have a flag-day this year?
If he doesn't that is a further indication of him quietly leaving the DRF.
I wonder if he will renounce his title, perhaps when/if he marries?
That would be a logic consequence and also a good way to reduce the number of "full royals". In relation to the public it is not in the DRF interest to have too many royals around.

Why would it be necessary for Nikolai to renounce his title? They already made him a HH instead of HRH at birth, so there is already a clear distinction between the core members and the more distant members within the family. And what would 'officially leaving' the family entail? That he no longer can be Rigsforstander (which he most likely never will be unless in a crisis situation when there is no other option available)?

The easier and more logical way IMO is to not have him (or his brothers) pass on his princely title but only his title as count of Monpezat to his children (which probably was what Margrethe intended when she created those titles). And probably make a general rule about the degree of kinship for membership of the DRF (or make an official distinction between the core family and the more distant family members - who are still in line to the throne).

In other countries (for example the Netherlands and Belgium; and a quite extreme example is Liechtenstein with I don't know how many princes without causing any issues it seems) we've seen that it doesn't present a problem that princes have normal careers. I am not saying that there never will never be a controversy, but that would occur with or without royal title just because of their relatively close family relation to the monarch, i.e., they will always be linked to their respective royal families.

[tommy100]

I suspect Nikolai would probably keep his title but use another name if he gets a "proper" i.e. normal job. maybe Nikolai Monpezat or Nikolai Frederiksborg (in fact wasn't it said in an article or interview he already went by a 'normal' name at school or on facebook?)

He can still legally and technically be Prince to Denmark but choose to use a different name, at the end of the day this late on dropping his title will do little anyway as people who know who he is will still know him.

I think with M&F having 4 children of their own there is likely little need for Nikolai and his siblings to take on a royal role in the future. Therefore they almost certainly will go about getting "normal jobs" even if keeping their royal status just in case.

[carina_a]

It doesn't seem like a problem to me, either.

Nikolai (and his siblings) is already distinguished from his cousins by his HH title. If he receives no apanage (either on his own or as a % from the monarch), and his future children bear no royal title, it will not create a 'big' royal family in the future. The royal family will still only be carried on by the crown prince and his heir.

The Danes have already figured it out IMO.

[Muhler]

(Answer to Somebody).

Not necessary perhaps, but IMO certainly simpler.
To the general public who are not that well versed in titles, there is no real distinction between HH and HRH. - Nikolai is Prince ergo he is a full royal. That also applies to segments of the press, especially when they want to...

Nikolai can very much be compared to Princess Elisabeth I think.
She's never married or had any children, so that "issue" ends with her. And she had a career in the Foreign Ministry, sometimes being deployed abroad. That's an acceptable and safe career for an "inactive" royal. Not controversial and out of sight and out of mind.
And if need be I suppose all Joachim's children can be parked away safely like that. Beforehand younger royals had a career in the military or like Elisabeth became a civil servant or even went into the church or in some cases had a manor somewhere. - Pretty much the traditional career choices for younger siblings of the upper class.
But that does put limitations on their choice of careers.
Nothing that is remotely political. Nothing that brings him into conflict with Danish interests or with segments of the population is acceptable, so that may rule out him being a top executive in a private business. And so on.

The problem is also that the DRF has to neutral in almost every aspect. That also includes inactive members. Otherwise there is a very good chance of that detracting from the monarchy itself. - That sentiment is admittedly sometimes bordering on being hysterical here in DK, but it's there.
It's easier and simpler to renounce the title and just be a count. For Nikolai himself it won't make that big a difference in relation to the DRF. He'll still be invited for family events and such, but not standing with his cousins. I think he'll survive that. It's not like he's being kicked out of a palace or anything like that.

So if Nikolai and his siblings wish to retain their titles as royals and have a career of their own it's better if they settle and work outside DK.

That I think applies to the Nordic monarchies. They have different traditions in the Benelux countries, and yet, even there there have been controversies and scandals when secondary royals have messed things up.

So again: If Nikolai is inactive, it would IMO be simpler for him to officially opt out of the royal roadshow.

We debated something similar in regards to Madeleine when she married. I think she would get much less criticism and be much more free (and so would her husband BTW) had she renounced her royal title when she married.
Now she is criticized for not being active enough, for not being in Sweden enough and so on...

[tommy100]

The difference with Madeleine is that all her other siblings live and work in Sweden, she does not do anywhere near as many duties as they do so comparisons are easier.

I don't see it being a problem for Nikolai unless one or other of his siblings goes out working for the DRF then there would be pressure on him to drop his royal title. Joachim's children can set the standard - to retain their HH and Prince/Princess titles (which aren't being passed down to their children anyway) and make their own living. At the end of the day would them not having a title really make a difference? People can and would google pretty quick and discover the truth and so many people in Denmark know Nikolai already it seems unnecessary to me to take the title from him.
Also bear in mind that for Margrethe, who is known to be quite "proud", her sister's children and grandchildren nearly all have titles or some sort so I think she'd happily let her own keep theirs.

[Muhler]

Oh yes, there is no danger of QMII or king Frederik stripping Joachim's children of their royal titles against their will. Unless they do something monumentally stupid of course, but that's another matter.

I'm merely think that Nikolai may himself renounce his status as an official royal. Doing a Märtha Louise and as such be more free career-wise.
And that I think might be a wise decision in the long run.

[Somebody]

But Märtha Louise is still 'princess Märtha Louise' and even styled as 'HH princess Märtha Louise' abroad; so she only did away with her 'HRH' status (which Sverre Magnus never got).

Regarding the Madeleine issue (although we are going hugely off-topic - and her situation is quite different in that she is the monarch's daughter not grandson); in my perception the main inconsistency is not in keeping her title -she was born a royal highness and currently they don't strip people of titles for not marrying 'equals', so no reason for her to give up her title- but in accepting titles for her children while their father refused a title. So, this is a 'Nordic' example where they give out more titles than previously instead of less or asking/suggesting/forcing to renounce.

Still, it's interesting to hear different perspectives! And I agree that not all people make the distinction between HRH and HH but I don't see that as a good enough reason for Nikolai and his siblings to renounce a title (as to me that isn't necessarily tied to being an active member - if they want it to be that way, they should change the rules for the next generation not make it depended on individuals).

We'll see what the future holds but so far I don't see a reason for Nikolai to renounce his titles. If he wants to do controversial things, him being the grandson or nephew of the monarch will make it bad enough, with or without title... The only reason that I can think of why it might be considered is if he is 'making money of his title' (but even that can be done without a title, as Tessy seems to do fine even though she is about to loose hers). As long as he doesn't advertise his title in his job (he could indeed use Monpezat instead), he should be fine - and will have the advantages (and some disadvantages) of being born into the royal family no matter what.

[Muhler]

You are right, but Nikolai starts out as HH, not HRH. So he's pretty much at the end of the line, princely-speaking.

We shall indeed see.
Perhaps it will work out for all of Joachim's children.
It is as you know difficult to make predictions, especially about the future...

Personally I think inactive DRF members should drop their royal titles and revert to being mere nobles.
It makes things simpler and should they do something controversial it doesn't reflect so hard on the monarchy, because they are not officially a part of the royal family anymore.
And there is a serious risk of "title-inflation" if there are say 25 prince/ss running around. (We must assume that most if not all of M&F's children will marry someone who will get a title of prince/ss, because they are children of the heir.)

It will of course be even more interesting to see what role especially Vincent and Josephine will have.

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

In Norway the brother of the future Queen (Sverre Magnus) is already no HRH anymore. In Spain the sisters of the new King are visibly sidelined. In the Netherlands the nephews and nieces of the King all have no royal title anymore (they are count/countess). Etc. This evolution is visible in all Houses.

There is no evolution at all in the NRF when it comes to this.

The media didn't want Märtha to lose HRH style in 2002, but the King meant it would have been unfair to Raghnild and Astrid if she had retained the title after she married.

It was the same with Sverre. The King and Haakon meant it would have been unfair to Raghnild, Astrid and Märtha if he was to retain the style after he marries. So they decided that Sverre should not go through the same process as the princesses had to do when they lost their styles.

Originally Posted by Somebody

Why would it be necessary for Nikolai to renounce his title? They already made him a HH instead of HRH at birth, so there is already a clear distinction between the core members and the more distant members within the family.

They haven't made him anything. In Denmark the style of HRH is reserved only to the children of the monarch + their spouses (Prince Richard thanked no) and the children of the crown prince, other grandchildren of the monarch enjoy the style of HH. And therefor Nikolai was IMO never going to be a working royal anyway, but as Muhler wrote: ''To the general public who are not that well versed in titles, there is no real distinction between HH and HRH. - Nikolai is Prince ergo he is a full royal. That also applies to segments of the press, especially when they want to''.

Just take a look on the danish historian Lars Hovbakke Sørensen who did not even mention anything about the facts I wrote above when he tried to explaine the reasons for Princess Elisabeth not being a working royal.

Originally Posted by Somebody

But Märtha Louise is still 'princess Märtha Louise' and even styled as 'HH princess Märtha Louise' abroad; so she only did away with her 'HRH' status (which Sverre Magnus never got).

Yes, she is. And as I wrote in one of the norwegian threads, some politicians and commentators wanted her to let go of the princess title in 2007 and 2014 (due to her angels stuff), but the King went out and said no. Why? - Because he meant that the princess title only showed that she was his daughter and that (he said) she will always be.

But she is not a member of the Royal House, and does what she wants.

[xenobia]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Regarding the Madeleine issue (although we are going hugely off-topic - and her situation is quite different in that she is the monarch's daughter not grandson); in my perception the main inconsistency is not in keeping her title -she was born a royal highness and currently they don't strip people of titles for not marrying 'equals', so no reason for her to give up her title- but in accepting titles for her children while their father refused a title. So, this is a 'Nordic' example where they give out more titles than previously instead of less or asking/suggesting/forcing to renounce.

When it comes to Madeleines children, I would place all of my money on this bet: When Leonore was born, Estelle was the only other royal cousin. There was no "spare", and no one knew if Victoria and Daniel would have any other children (or if Carl Philip would marry and have children).

The king himself has lived in a situation where the line to the throne was very, very short. I think that he didn't want that situation to repeat itself if it could be avoided, and decided to give all of his grandkids a title, regardless of their parents titel/non-title.

Now that V&D have two kids, just like CP &S, there is no shortage of people in the line of succession. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if Madeleine - with her fathers approval - decided to stay in London and take the kids out of the line of succession.

The danish situation is a bit different. Nikolai was born as a potential spare, but there were also other possibilities. If neither of the queens children would have had children of their own, both of her sisters had kids that - as far as I know - would be able to inherit the throne.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Resumé of the thread: in all monarchies there is a trend to downsizing, by focusing on the core royal family. The one monarchy does it with firm hand (Spain), the other monarchy does the more gradual way. The fact that the title Greve and Komtesse Monpezat has been created indicates that issue from royals outside the core royal family will go the Rosenborg and Frederiksborg way and be known with their noble title, which is a good development by the way. Even in Belgium, where titles could go in in perpetuity, for all descendants of Albert II (in both the male and female lineage) they have concluded that this was no longer sustainable.

There is one exception to this trend: Sweden. The flood of princes and princesses (all dukes and duchesses as well). Nice that King Carl XVI Gustaf does not want to differentiate his grandchildren in A-royals and B-royals. But it will happen anyway. The focus will be on Princess Estelle, the future Queen. All those HRH Princes and Princesses of Sweden will give Sweden's (social) media their field days. Mark my words.

[Muhler]

I couldn't agree more.

[Duke of Marmalade]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

All those HRH Princes and Princesses of Sweden will give Sweden's (social) media their field days. Mark my words.

Agree 100%!
Those with title but without royal job will sell the magazines as royal celebrities, making it difficult to apply any 'private person' rights as they are all public figures.

[JR76]

I totally agree with the previous posts about why all the grandchildren of Carl XVI Gustav have been given titles and HRH status. There have been rumours that Madeleine wanted to give up her status and title at the time of her wedding but that her father made her reconsider.
Given how it was announced that Jonas Björklund would share his future wife's title of Duke at the time of their engagement it's apparent to me that the king feels that the gender neutral succession means that status and titles are for all his descendants. Added to this was as have been previously stated was the possibility of Estelle being an only child.
I do feel that things will have to change before the kids reach adulthood but I'm fairly certain that the O'Neils will stay in London thereby eliminating their children from the line of succession which I think will mean that their titles won't be inherited further down that family line.
Regarding the sons of Carl-Philip I see no possibility for the king changing their status. He's been vocal about maintaining the agnatic Bernadotte line even after accepting the new line of succession. The only change I see is if they're made Prince Bernadotte something that's not as easy as it sounds given that the king has no right to ennoble anyone.

[Duc_et_Pair]

This is a little sidestep, but King Carl XVI Gustaf could not do what Queen Margrethe, King Willem-Alexander, King Felipe etc. can do: creating nobles.

That sounds strange with the flood of new Swedish Dukes and Duchesses but these are personal designations rather than real noble and hereditary titles (like Rosenborg or Monpezat). A problem is possibly also that Prince Carl Philip's children are the legitimate procreation of the "real" Bernadottes and maybe the King had ambivalent feelings that Carl Philip's children, unbroken direct male agnatic dynasts of the first Bernadotte King, would not have any title.

It was not in the King's possibility to create them Prince / Princess Bernadotte, which would be a solution. I think that made it more difficult than in Denmark, where Queen Margrethe has more options to differentiate.

[FasterB]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Just like Elisabeth not going in the front door so to speak is an indication of her role in the DRF, (Which is inactive.)

HH Princess Elisabeth is taking the back door, because it is where the elevator is. She can´t manage the stairs any longer