The Future of the Danish Monarchy

[Denville]

I dont understand your point

 

[Muhler]

The subject is only discussed here on TRF. There is no republican movenment on the rise in DK, nor is there any fear of the entire DRF being wiped out at the same time.

But such what-if's are of course discussed from time to time and in this day and age with co-ordinated terrorist attacks the idea is not that far out.
So IMO this discussion is valid, if somewhat morbid.
It's akin to your child asking: What happens to me should you and mom die?

The Danes seem a flexible sort of people to me, but will they be thát elastic to make Gustav zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg their next King? I think the chance that Parliament will vote for the Republic of Denmark is bigger.

I doubt very much Gustav would even be considered. He has never had any particular affiliation with DK and he has his estate to run, so the chance of him turning down an offer to become monarch is very high IMO.
Nathalie or Alexandra are more likely. They both have affiliations to DK and children.
And indeed the chances of DK becoming a republic instead are very high indeed.

That is the constitutional part of the story. No doubt that this will be perfectly covered by the Danish Government. The Regency Council in the Netherlands is to safeguard the private interests of the underaged monarch. To ensure that the Regent is not able to sell private assets, stock portfolios, estates, jewels, artworks, etc. and to ensure that decisions the Regent makes for the underaged monarch are in his/her best interest indeed. Without the control by a Regency Council, the person of the Regent can do immense harm and bring damage to the private interests of the underaged monarch. By poor decisionmaking, by engaging in ruthless financial adventures, by selling priceless items to generate cashflow, etc.

I can not imagine that the Danish Government has a say in the management of the private wealth of the underaged King? I assumed, to make sure that non-Danish mama and Regentess Mary only makes decisions in the best interest of underaged King Christian, she will be controlled by a Regency Council as well?

We again imagine that Frederik dies and Mary become Rigsforstander.

Mary as Christian's mother is automatically his guardian. And as a mother she would, we must safely assume, look after his best personal interests and assests

Should both Christian's parents die a guardian and a Rigsforstander will be appointed.
The guardian will look after Christian's (and the other children) personal interests, upbringing, education, assets and so on.
That guardian is likely to be Joachim, but it could also be Benedikte or John Donaldson or perhaps even a close friend of M&F. Say Caroline Heering.

The Rigsforstander will in anything but name be monarch and head of the DRF until Christian turns eighteen and has signed a pledge to obey the Constitution.
But the Rigsforstander and the guardian need not be the same person but they can be.

Of course Rigsrådet (the State Council) will keep an eye on things.
But Mary, as Rigsforstander, is in fact entitled to dispose over the personal fortune and assets of the DRF - minus Joachim an Benedikte's personal wealth of course.
She would of course have to answer some unpleasant questions should she start to act totally silly, both from the rest of the DRF as well as Rigsrådet.
And ultimately the Parliament can relieve her of her duties as Rigsforstander and appoint a new one.

- Then we are talking about a situation comparable to the monarch being mentally unstable.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I dont understand your point

The remark was that it was most theoretic. Which it is indeed. Absolutely. But.... sometimes the most theoretic, the most unlikely, happens. Who would ever have thought what happened in 2010 to the ruling class of Poland? Almost wiped out in one plane crash with the presidential plane? That was the point.

 

[Lee-Z]

It *is* a morbid discussion, but hypothetically I think that in most west-european monarchies (not only in the danish situation):
if the entire RF would be wiped out by some disaster (and I mean the *entire* RF, including everyone you know now as being related to that RF) than the country is more likely to turn into a republic with a President as head-of-state than remain a monarchy with a foreign royal asked to be the new monarch.

100 years ago that would have been different, royals were literally asked to be monarch of a country they had absolutely nothing to do with, but nowadays I don't think that's feasible anymore....

For the NL, I can only imagine the monarchy to exist as long as an "Orange" is available on the throne, if they are wiped out, it will be the end of the monarchy imo (and to be fairly honest, even the distant Orange-cousins which are almost unknown in the NL would probably be not considered as a monarch)

 

[Mbruno]

It *is* a morbid discussion, but hypothetically I think that in most west-european monarchies (not only in the danish situation):
if the entire RF would be wiped out by some disaster (and I mean the *entire* RF, including everyone you know now as being related to that RF) than the country is more likely to turn into a republic with a President as head-of-state than remain a monarchy with a foreign royal asked to be the new monarch.

100 years ago that would have been different, royals were literally asked to be monarch of a country they had absolutely nothing to do with, but nowadays I don't think that's feasible anymore....

For the NL, I can only imagine the monarchy to exist as long as an "Orange" is available on the throne, if they are wiped out, it will be the end of the monarchy imo (and to be fairly honest, even the distant Orange-cousins which are almost unknown in the NL would probably be not considered as a monarch)

It is interesting that the Danish and Norwegian constitutions say that the parliament should elect "a new King" in case the current RF becomes extinct. In Sweden, however, the new Instrument of Government changed the wording simply to parliament electing "a regent" to serve as Head of State" until further notice", implying there is a great chance Sweden would move to become a republic if that happened.

 

[FasterB]

Basically they would have to change succession laws for anyone. Makes sense to follow what would have been the natural line (by eliminating the rules that eliminated them). The Rosenbergs would be low down.

If Marge's sisters died as well:

line of succession natural (eliminating exclusions)

1. Gustav- eldest child of queen's eldest sister
2Alexandra- 2nd child
3Richard- eldest child of 2
4Ingrid- younger child of 2
5 Nathalie- 3rd child
6 Konstantin- oldest child of 5
7 Luisa- youngest child of 5

8. Alexia of Greece- eldest child of queen's youngest sister
9Arietta
10 Ana
11 Carlos
12 Amelia

13 Pavlos
14 Maria Olympia
15 Konstantin
16 Achileas
17 Odysseus
18 Aristides

19 Nikolaus
20 Theodora
21 Philippa

Then you'd have to go further if some mass epidemic wiped those out to

22 Count Ignolf- first cousin of queen (76)
23 Countess Josephine- eldest child of queen's 1st cousin Christian
24 Julius- her 1st child
25 Clara- her 2nd
26 Countess Camilla- Christian's 2ndd
27 Anastasia
28 Ludwig
29 Leopold
30 Theodor
31 Countess Feodora- Christian's 3rd
32 Caroline-Mathilde

From there you'd have to go back to the descendents of siblings of the queen's grandfather.

Question do they make Gustav King with hopes he and Carina can have kids, with his nephews and nieces as back up? Or jump over him due to his German position, and have Queen Alexandra and CP Richard?

Number 26 would be: Oscar Christian of Rosenbor (Josephine´s 3rd child)

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I just watched the ZDF doku 'Kurs auf die Krone' = the path to the crown, focussing on 3 couples of the DRF, Frederik & Ingrid, Margrethe & Henrik & Frederik & Mary.
I think the pictures and content are well known, still I enjoyed watching it again. I do agree with the resumee of the programme, that Frederik & Mary will be a success as King and Queen as they are a team and resemble Frederik & Ingrid very much who were a team first and foremost, the folksy King with the manager wife in the background, while Margrete has been a very strong and dominating monarch with a consort who could never really accept his place or felt at home.


Kurs auf die Krone - ZDFzeit - ZDFmediathek - ZDF Mediathek

 

[Blog Real]

I also think that Frederik and Mary will be good Kings and very popular. The monarchy of Denmark is of the most popular in Europe and it is very safe. Probably going to take some time to Frederik and Mary become Kings of Denmark, that if the Queen Margrethe didn't abdicate within a few years, which is unlikely to happen, since the Queen has already said several times that's not going to give up.

 

[tommy100]

The remark was that it was most theoretic. Which it is indeed. Absolutely. But.... sometimes the most theoretic, the most unlikely, happens. Who would ever have thought what happened in 2010 to the ruling class of Poland? Almost wiped out in one plane crash with the presidential plane? That was the point.

Out of interest do the DRF enforce the same rule as some other monarchies, that the sovereign and heir can not travel on the same plane? I guess exactly to avoid something like what happened in Poland.

 

[Muhler]

Out of interest do the DRF enforce the same rule as some other monarchies, that the sovereign and heir can not travel on the same plane? I guess exactly to avoid something like what happened in Poland.

It is, as I understand it, not a rule as such, but in reality they QMII and Frederik and Frederik and Christian usually avoid flying together.

There are of course times when they do fly together, like joint official visits abroad or to more remote places like Greenland. (Where the danger of crashing is actually higher).

- But they are very often on the job together in the same place or sailing in the same boat. And since flying is so safe nowadays the likelihood of something else happening is perhaps just as big as crashing in a plane.
For that reason Dannebrog is always escorted by a warship when sailing outside Danish waters. In particular in the North Atlantic where the weather can be rough.
Partly because the warship functions as a tender, but also provide (usually) a more well-equipped lazaret than aboard Dannebrog. As well as usually a helicopter. Not to mention experienced crews for sailing among icebergs. - And should Dannebrog go down she is filled with rescue pods and the warship can be in place within minutes. So at least some of the DRF can be expected to be rescued.
Mary during her first visit to Greenland encountered bad weather and she and Frederik were IIRC taken aboard the escorting warship for a few hours, as it was too rough to try and board Dannebrog. Afterwards she told how a strange and novel situation it was for her to let go of the control over her life (more or less literally) and place everything in the hands of others.

 

[Countessmeout]

Number 26 would be: Oscar Christian of Rosenbor (Josephine´s 3rd child)

Thanks Oscar seems to have missed the list I went by

 

[FasterB]

Thanks Oscar seems to have missed the list I went by

Weeeeeell, he was born the 6th August 2016

 

[Countessmeout]

I guess that explains it The 2 week old little man is just ahead of the print Congrats to the family.

 

[Blog Real]

Klar til at give Mary og Frederik tronen | SE og HØR

 

[Muhler]

Thanks.

Yeah, I think we should take that with a grain of salt.

The article essentially quotes an expert for saying that QMII in her recent praising of Mary, prepared the way for an abdication, by stating that Mary was ready to take. (QMII has long ago said Frederik was ready).

It is however only an interpretation and yours and mine is just as good.

However, BT today published a poll from Epinion. Frederik og Mary skal holde sig på måtten: 'Der må ikke være for mange som Alexandra' i kongehuset

The question was: Do you think we still will have a monarchy in DK in 50 years from now?
The result were:
Yes: 64%
No: 16 %
Don't no: 18 %
No response: 2%

BT asked a number of experts on the matter and I'll spare you a translation, because IMO their interpretation is as good as anyone else.

I will however point out that the question may not necessarily be seen as a popularity rating or approval rating, but perhaps just as much as a vies on how worried people are for the future or alternatively believe DK will seize being an independent national country.

 

[Curryong]

I think 64% of Danes is quite a high percentage of the population in thinking there'll be a monarchy so far into the future. As a monarchist I'm quite cheered by that result. I don't believe it's that high in Britain.

 

[Blog Real]

An abdication of Queen would be well accepted in Denmark?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Thanks.

Yeah, I think we should take that with a grain of salt.

The article essentially quotes an expert for saying that QMII in her recent praising of Mary, prepared the way for an abdication, by stating that Mary was ready to take. [....]

Did I miss something? In thought Mary is the spouse of the future head of state and the mother of his children? Since when needs the wife to be "ready to take"? Shouldn't Frederik be considered ready for more than three decades now, since his 18th birthday?

It all sounds a bit sensationalist. Imagine that media in the UK or in Norway polled if Camilla or Mette-Mary were "ready to take"? They do not need to be "ready". They are just the wife. Is their husband the heir, then they are married to the heir. Is their husband the head of state, then they are married to the head of state. No more, no less. Life can be thát simple indeed...

 

[Rudolph]

I think 64% of Danes is quite a high percentage of the population in thinking there'll be a monarchy so far into the future. As a monarchist I'm quite cheered by that result. I don't believe it's that high in Britain.

In 2015 62 percent said Britain will still have a monarchy in 100 years, according to YouGov:

The Monarchy: popular across society and 'here to stay'

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/09/08/monarchy-here-stay/

 

[Blog Real]

Did I miss something? In thought Mary is the spouse of the future head of state and the mother of his children? Since when needs the wife to be "ready to take"? Shouldn't Frederik be considered ready for more than three decades now, since his 18th birthday?

It all sounds a bit sensationalist. Imagine that media in the UK or in Norway polled if Camilla or Mette-Mary were "ready to take"? They do not need to be "ready". They are just the wife. Is their husband the heir, then they are married to the heir. Is their husband the head of state, then they are married to the head of state. No more, no less. Life can be thát simple indeed...

The Queen has also said repeatedly that Prince Frederik is ready to be King. But in this interview, she also spoke of Mary. There's no confusion.

 

[Roskilde]

A translation of the start of the article:

"The new poll is made by Epinion for DR and shows that 64 percent believe the royal house still exist in 50 years. It is especially Frederik and Mary's great popularity which is responsible for that.

Monday it was exactly 12.5 years ago since Frederik and Mary said yes to each other in Copenhagen Cathedral. Even then, the Crown Prince couple's popularity were in top, and it has in the years after only grown. All polls the last years have shown respectively Frederik and Mary as the most popular person in the Royal Family.

But experts said that the Crown Price couple can't do anything if they want to maintain their high popularity. (...)"


Oh! Thanks BT. But isn't that logic? Sometimes I think that the media think we Danes are half stupid and can't think ourself.

But okay, it is a praise to Queen Margrethe, CP Frederik and Cp Mary that we still think we have a royal house in 50 years. For otherwise, I think the article only says things we all can think ourselves

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

An abdication of Queen would be well accepted in Denmark?

Why not? It was accepted in the Netherlands, in Luxembourg, in Belgium, in Spain, in the United Kingdom and at the Vatican even... Why would it not be accepted then in Denmark? They also accepted that not Prince Knud would become King but Princess Margrethe (change of the succession in 1953).

 

[polyesco]

The Queen has also said repeatedly that Prince Frederik is ready to be King. But in this interview, she also spoke of Mary. There's no confusion.

agree.
Just last March, the Queen gave great praise and complete confidence in Frederik during the documentaries on the DRF residences
Dronning Margrethe afslører: Sådan forbereder jeg Frederik til livet som konge

"But he has a great feel for what's what. I can feel it, "says Margrethe with a satisfied smile playing on her lips."

the article also touched on Frederik's preparation and behind the scenes work. "Crown Prince Frederik participated in different and more invisible royal chores that goes on behind the Amalienborg thick walls. For example, Frederik regularly attends the weekly meetings between the ruler and the prime minister and other ministers. Just as he (and Mary) has been given a much more prominent role in the state visit here and abroad."

This past Monday there were official audiences.

 

[MidwestMom]

There is so much turmoil in so many places, it's refreshing to read that people are happy and confident about their country's future.

 

[Blog Real]

About the state council on the 22nd.

The strangest thing about this state council dinner is Mary's presence. Is it really an abdication? Or will Frederik become a prevailing ruler?

 

[Nordic]

About the state council on the 22nd.

The strangest thing about this state council dinner is Mary's presence. Is it really an abdication? Or will Frederik become a prevailing ruler?

There is no State Council on the 22nd but perhaps this State Council Dinner is just that, a long overdue State Council Dinner? AFAIK, there doesn't have to be a specific reason for it. There was none back in 2000.

Maybe the Crown Princess has been asked out of courtesy? There is a second guest present that is not a member of the State Council, a State Secretary from the PM's office.

 

[Dman]

It seems like there will be a meeting and dinner. Why would anyone find it strange for a Mary to be there?

 

[Nordic]

It seems like there will be a meeting and dinner. Why would anyone find it strange for a Mary to be there?

What meeting? A State Council was held last week at Christiansborg but this is just a dinner.

Members of the State Council are the government ministers, Queen Margrethe and Crown Prince Frederik. As such, Mary (and the State Secretary) is an "extra".

 

[Dman]

What meeting? A State Council was held last week at Christiansborg but this is just a dinner.

Members of the State Council are the government ministers, Queen Margrethe and Crown Prince Frederik. As such, Mary (and the State Secretary) is an "extra".

Oh, I see. I didn't know a State Council was already held.

 

[Muhler]

Gallup has made a survey on behalf of the tabloid BT.
Danskernes overraskende valg: Her er det medlem af Kongehuset, der gør det bedst | BT Royale - www.bt.dk

Here 1.167 Danes above the age of 18 have been asked: Who do you think is doing the best job in representing Denmark?
Rated on a scale from 1-5.

Here Mary come in at the top with a score of 4.52.
Frederik and QMII are right behind her.

Our Marie is further down at number four, while PH and Joachim are way down the list.

There are no further details in regards to the individual scores in the article.

BT has asked a historian, Sebastian Olden-Jørgensen, for a comment.
"I find it noticeable that the Queen is not in the lead. Because she is the queen, she is the most well-known and she is the one everyone has known since they were children".

As for Mary: "She has so to speak no weak points. She has style and social intelligence. She looks good. She's fully committed to/wholeheartedly in her role and she's doing well as a mother, and then she has taken on some projects with vulnerable children and women, which simply goes into the heart. That's what she's being rewarded for. She is doing what she has to do - and she has made some really good choices in regards to what she can take on voluntarily".