The Future of the Danish Monarchy

[nwinther]

Originally Posted by ricarda

Because I would say there are not many people in Denmark who wish(ed) Joachim was CP, even among those who are critical towards Frederik.
(In the last ~7 years I have only once seen that opinion expressed - in the book of "royal expert" Trine Villeman - and by the reaction her book received in Dk I dare say she did not express the opinion of "many Danes". )

While I'm surely a minority, I can attest to that sentiment. IMO, Joachim would be a superiour king compared to Frederik. Sure, I accept Frederik as my eventual Sovereign - especially as he is reinforced by the presence of a most excellent wife and queen. But I would still think Joachim would be better for the job.

So - now you've seen it twice.

[ricarda]

Well, I wrote "not many".
And we have a saying in my country: "A king, who finds"
It was Frederik who found Mary and supported her in a way so she could become what she is today.

Joachim - I experienced him in real life and found him very unappealing/arrogant/stiff (this was just a 15 minute impression of course, I don't really know him). But I really can't see what would make him a superior king. After all a main part of the job is to represent. And it's never good when a representative gives the impression of arrogance.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by ricarda

Well, I wrote "not many".
And we have a saying in my country: "A king, who finds"
It was Frederik who found Mary and supported her in a way so she could become what she is today.

Joachim - I experienced him in real life and found him very unappealing/arrogant/stiff (this was just a 15 minute impression of course, I don't really know him). But I really can't see what would make him a superior king. After all a main part of the job is to represent. And it's never good when a representative gives the impression of arrogance.

In the eyes of the beholder perhaps?
I'd say people of different gender, background or age can have a very different look on someone.

Let's start with his appearance.
I may be "environmentally damaged" but I respect someone who do the extra effort in doing things correctly, also when it comes to dressing and behaving correctly. "Fashionable casual" doesn't impress me.
It's my impression that such people also go the extra mile in regards to their homework. And I find it appropriate that people dress up for the occasion (and in order to represent what they come from. In Joachim's case DK and the DRF) rather than people who dress up more casual or "folksy", if you like. What they are really saying is: "Look at meee"! (Or worse: "I don't really care") It's disrespect for the occasion.
Whether we aknowledge it or not, appearance is important.

His work.
Whatever the subject may be, I'll dare anyone to come up with an example in the past fifteen years or so, where Joachim were asked questions about something he attended, which he couldn't answer. Or was unable to talk at length about the same subject. He does his homework properly and I respect that as well.
However mindboglingly tedious an event J. is attending appears to be, he always appear interested. There are no blank stares or sleepy eyes. That's good representation. That's what I expect from a man in his position.

Articulate.
Yes, Joachim is blessed with the gift of being articulate. I'd still say that it takes work and preparation to be good at something. Your talent will only get you this far.
I'll also say that being articulate comes with growing confidence. Confidence in knowing that you are well prepared and from past victories.

Folksy.
Admitted, in the eyes of many (mostly women perhaps?) Joachim appear arrogant and stiff. Have you ever considered that it might be his "shield"? His professional distance, if you like.
That a man appears arrogant may not be because he really is arrogant, it may be because he is not comfortable with you getting too close. In his position it may not be a good idea to be too "folksy". Especially considering the tasks he usually undertakes. I.e. business, commerce and diplomatic representation.

I genuinely respect people who are good at what they do and who do their best when they are on the job. That's why I respect Mary so much.

King.
Joachim is not a "man of the people" and he shouldn't try to be, he will only fail. That doesn't mean he would be a poor king. I'm in no doubt that Joachim would be a very competent king, had the tables been turned.
But Frederik would still be more popular, I'm certain about that.
Popularity is not the same as competence. Popularity is a tenous thing, it can so easily evaporate. Being popular is not the same as being respected. - We need to keep that in mind and sometimes look inside the person, no matter how much or how little we may like him personally.

The real test of any monarch comes when the people look at him/her for guidance.

[ricarda]

[edit-JessRulz]

I am actually not very interested in Joachim and don't have the time to discuss him.
The only interesting question for me is: why do some (few) think he would make a superior king than Frederik?
I said Joachim didn't make a good impression on me. I never said he isn' t doing his homework. Probably he would be competent as a king.
But superior to Frederik? Not in my opinion.

I don't think popularity just happens, it's based on certain abilities. I think it's possible to be respected without being popular, but I don't think it's possible to be (or stay) popular without being respected. And as popularity "can so easily evaporate" (Joachim is a good example for that) I think it's actually a sign of competence to stay so popular for so long (as Frederik does).

But until that test of any monarch comes along - which IMO Frederik would pass much better than Joachim (whom his first wife, the very intelligent Alexandra, attested the backbone of a gummibear) - we can just agree to disagree.

[nwinther]

You have some very good points Muhler. I especially like your "arrogance" interpretation, where some apparantly find J to come off as arrogant in certain situations, I find Frederik to come off as fidgity, insecure, confused and even scared. Seeing him and Mary in Aalborg after the wedding, he seemed like a deer caught in the headlights when walking slong the spectators.

With J, I get a feeling of a person who can grasp and manage a situation - even a stressful one. Frederik rarely seems in control and never in a comfortable way.

When it comes to popularity, sure it's nice for a powerful man to also be popular. But "man of the people" isn't what I'm looking up to in a king. If you look at Churchill, he was very popular. But he was also extremely arrogant and miles away from being a "man of the people" in the "folksy" sense. I think the right word is "dignity", and J just seems more dignified than F.

[lyndaW]

Mr Muhler,
Your posts are very senstive & insightful about Joachim

All the other Royal famalies interact with each other and get to know each other..........however Joachim seems to never be invitated to any Royal events and doesn;t seem to have any friends from the other Royal Houses......he wasn't even invitated to the Greek wedding (his owns first cousins)....Benedicktte could have been Regent. Now another family wedding is coming up of another first cousin, Nathalie ........

He and Marie (both speaking French) would be a delight at the Monaco wedding........but I bet he won't be invitated

Is their a reason he is always excluded from royal events ?

[SweetRomanza]

Joachim was @ the royal wedding in Greece last year. Frederik was the absentee.

[lyndaW]

Originally Posted by SweetRomanza

Joachim was @ the royal wedding in Greece last year. Frederik was the absentee.

Thank you, I forgot he and Marie were their

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by lyndaW

Mr Muhler,
Your posts are very senstive & insightful about Joachim

All the other Royal famalies interact with each other and get to know each other..........however Joachim seems to never be invitated to any Royal events and doesn;t seem to have any friends from the other Royal Houses......he wasn't even invitated to the Greek wedding (his owns first cousins)....Benedicktte could have been Regent. Now another family wedding is coming up of another first cousin, Nathalie ........

He and Marie (both speaking French) would be a delight at the Monaco wedding........but I bet he won't be invitated

Is their a reason he is always excluded from royal events ?

Thank you Mrs. LyndaW

SweetRomanza has already answered in regards to the Greek wedding.

I don't know how much the secondary royals interact. Not that much I guess.
The CP couples from DK, Sweden, Norway and the Netherlands have certainly developed a close relationship and considering their position it's not only a good thing, it's wise as well.
Joachim will certainly know the Greek royals well from childhood but apart from the occasional family gathering I don't think they see eachother much. Nor do the Greek royals see that much of M&F for that matter.
I've heard Joachim has a good relationship with Prince Edward, but whether they are actual friends I don't know.
The secondary Swedish royals don't seem to have many royal friends either, not even M&F, whom they both know very well,
So it's a question how much the secondary royals associate at all?

Well, I do think J&M will go to the wedding in Monaco, if for no other reason that Mary will still be on maternity leave by then.

As for the Berleburg wedding, now that's going to be interesting! I doubt very much QMII will stay at home. And Benedikte will of course not be Regent, so that leaves Joachim and Frederik. - Unless, my pet-scenario: Mary will be regent.

[missMaryanne]

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade

Joachim has been decribed as hot-tempered and moody in the past, an unbalanced Jekyll&Hyde character, unlike Frederik.

Many people wish Joachim was CP but I am in the camp who doesnt.

i agree with you. i don't think an unbalanced character is what a future king needs.

i also think that a weak character is very bad on a future king. a future king needs to be strong, but sensitive at the same time.

and sometimes i think frederik is a little bit underestimated.

[Sternchen]

Originally Posted by Muhler

However mindboglingly tedious an event J. is attending appears to be, he always appear interested. There are no blank stares or sleepy eyes. That's good representation. That's what I expect from a man in his position.

That's what I would also expect from his wife, but somehow she is incapable of appearing interested, which must be like a slap in the face for some of the patronages she visits...

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Sternchen

That's what I would also expect from his wife, but somehow she is incapable of appearing interested, which must be like a slap in the face for some of the patronages she visits...

Touche.

But then she is Marie. And I think she can charm herself out of most situations.
- I predict we are going to see a lot of wonderful goofs from her. And many, myself included, are going to like her for that.

[ricarda]

Originally Posted by nwinther

where some apparantly find J to come off as arrogant in certain situations, I find Frederik to come off as fidgity, insecure, confused and even scared. Seeing him and Mary in Aalborg after the wedding, he seemed like a deer caught in the headlights when walking slong the spectators.With J, I get a feeling of a person who can grasp and manage a situation - even a stressful one... and J just seems more dignified than F.

IIRC this discussion started with a situation Joachim did not grasp and manage with dignity. Not to mention all the other situations he didn't manage too well. I don't think he did anything really awful but one tends to be less "forgiving" with arrogant people.
And Frederik managed a very difficult military training. To me that says enough about his strength and courage.

Originally Posted by nwinther

When it comes to popularity, sure it's nice for a powerful man to also be popular. But "man of the people" isn't what I'm looking up to in a king. If you look at Churchill, he was very popular. But he was also extremely arrogant and miles away from being a "man of the people" in the "folksy" sense. I think the right word is "dignity",.

Churchill was not a king, he was a politician and actually a leader who guided the people through difficult times. That's why he was popular.
Besides, he lived in a very different age. I doubt a politician like him would be possible nowadays (unless there is a 3rd world war). But I find it telling that you bring him up when discussing Joachim's arrogance.

I think Queen Margrethe has already proven that there is something in between folksyness and arrogance. Although not folksy she is a popular monarch and does not come across as arrogant. She has real dignity. IMO Joachim just has the facade.

Btw, here is a link to an interesting article about a poll which was conducted in March last year and whose results were compared with polls in 2004 and 2009. Question: How do the Danish royals perform their tasks? http://trondni.blogspot.com/2010/04/...gs-mostly.html
Joachim and Marie don't seem to receive much approval.

[SweetRomanza]

Originally Posted by Sternchen

That's what I would also expect from his wife, but somehow she is incapable of appearing interested, which must be like a slap in the face for some of the patronages she visits...

I saw a documentary on SBS a few weeks ago and they were showing Marie rehearsing a speech with much motivation. Could it be that sometimes, she appears less interested but it is because she wants to understand the language perfectly? I have friends who appear very serious/mad when they are trying to concentrate in a language.

[FasterB]

Originally Posted by Muhler

As for the Berleburg wedding, now that's going to be interesting! I doubt very much QMII will stay at home. And Benedikte will of course not be Regent, so that leaves Joachim and Frederik. - Unless, my pet-scenario: Mary will be regent.

Or perhaps something completely new: Princess Elizabeth

[ricarda]

Originally Posted by SweetRomanza

Could it be that sometimes, she appears less interested but it is because she wants to understand the language perfectly?

Could be, when she is listening to Danish speeches.
But she also appeared desinterested when listening to French and English speeches.

[dazzling]

Originally Posted by SweetRomanza

I saw a documentary on SBS a few weeks ago and they were showing Marie rehearsing a speech with much motivation. Could it be that sometimes, she appears less interested but it is because she wants to understand the language perfectly? I have friends who appear very serious/mad when they are trying to concentrate in a language.

I would assume it was Marie wanting to be perfect while saying her speech & since it is anew language to her she might not be perfect therefore she rehearsals over and over.
I don't find it weird or anything, as sometimes when I have a university presentation I would go over and over what I would have to say.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by SweetRomanza

I saw a documentary on SBS a few weeks ago and they were showing Marie rehearsing a speech with much motivation. Could it be that sometimes, she appears less interested but it is because she wants to understand the language perfectly? I have friends who appear very serious/mad when they are trying to concentrate in a language.

Perhaps.
But if I am to be honest I think it's because she is Marie - a bad hypocrite.
When you look at Marie's face, you get what she feels at that moment - for better or for worse. An honest face.
She may try to put up the right face, but she's not very good at it.
Even though I'm biased, I find it refreshing, genuine - honesty is not the worst thing in the world.

However, were Joachim, Frederik or Mary to do the same thing I would consider it somewhat rude, because they can put their faces in the right folds and they do it quite often.
A contradiction I know, but that's the charm with our Marie. - And who says all my arguments has to be objective?

[nwinther]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Hm, sometimes I think people take these things a bit too serious.

Let me make one thing absolutely clear, no one, no one at all should ever demand of me that my arguments should be consistent or not.
The world is not black and white, Nwinther.

Sometimes I look at the screen in bisbelief.
Marie and Joachim - and the rest of the DRF are human beings. And human beings have faults, repeat faults.
That doesn't make them bad persons, it doesn't make them incompetent and it doesn't make them less likable.
When reading some of the critique here, I often get the distinct feeling that some critizise a particular person for no other reason that they simply don't like that person.

Now, I happen to like Marie and I happen to respect Joachim. That doesn't mean that they don't have faults. Of course they do, just like any other human being and I aknowledge that.
I take a perverted delight in defending Joachim and Marie and praising them whenever I can, especially when they recieve, what I see as unnecessary critizism.

Try look at things in a more nuanced way.

"Lighten up, Francis" - Sgt. Hulka

Personally, I try and be objective (a contradiction by definition, I know) and consistent, meaning that if I critisize X for embarrasing themselves by doing something, then Y, doing exactly the same would also be subject to my critizism.

Now, some people revel in seeing J as arrogant. It reinforces their own perception of the man - confirming ones prejudices is everyones favourite. This means it's hard for J to do anything right. Same goes for Marie. If you percive her to be disinterested, then you'll always look for signs of disinterest or even make them up in your head (preferbly reinforced by a picture of her blinking... I mean, obviously so bored she fell asleep).

And as you say, if someone for some reason, cares for a person (let's say F), they'll forgive him anything, usually attributing things to "folksyness".

And sure, they all have faults. But objectivity and consistency demands that social dogma applies to Peter as well as to Paul.
To charicature - J should recieve the same critizism for drunk driving, as F would (and vice versa). It's not a valid argument in a debate to "like" someone more than anyone else - hence my appeal for consistency.

Keep your chin up.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by nwinther

"Lighten up, Francis" - Sgt. Hulka

Personally, I try and be objective (a contradiction by definition, I know) and consistent, meaning that if I critisize X for embarrasing themselves by doing something, then Y, doing exactly the same would also be subject to my critizism.

Now, some people revel in seeing J as arrogant. It reinforces their own perception of the man - confirming ones prejudices is everyones favourite. This means it's hard for J to do anything right. Same goes for Marie. If you percive her to be disinterested, then you'll always look for signs of disinterest or even make them up in your head (preferbly reinforced by a picture of her blinking... I mean, obviously so bored she fell asleep).

And as you say, if someone for some reason, cares for a person (let's say F), they'll forgive him anything, usually attributing things to "folksyness".

And sure, they all have faults. But objectivity and consistency demands that social dogma applies to Peter as well as to Paul.
To charicature - J should recieve the same critizism for drunk driving, as F would (and vice versa). It's not a valid argument in a debate to "like" someone more than anyone else - hence my appeal for consistency.

Keep your chin up.

I see we are very much in agreement.

I've allowed myself to highlight a part of your reply.
However when it comes to royalty and indeed persons in general it's very difficult to be completely unbiased, as the subject in it's very nature is very much about what you believe in and how you feel about a certain person.
I think it's very much a valid point to state where you stand in regards to a particular person.

I have very often found myself in the situation where I have to explain why I critizise or point out a flaw in a person I respect or like.
That's why I sometimes have to go to extraordinary lengths to explain what I feel about certain persons.
It is actually possible to point out faults in persons you respect, yes, indeed it is.

That means that you should be able to point to mistakes someone makes. Be that Joachim, Marie, Frederik and also Mary (and I got some serious heat for that! ) and I will.
As long as we keep in mind that royals are humans as well.
They do have faults in their characters, they do have bad days and they do make mistakes.