New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022

[Tatiana Maria]

For many years, it seemed the Queen was moving in the opposite direction from other royal houses in Europe in allowing Prince Nikolai to use the title HH Prince to/of Denmark to promote his modeling career. Clearly HM has had a change of heart, because the announcement (see iceflower's link) cites the need for her grandchildren to earn their own money as the driving force behind the title reform.

"In May 2016, it was also announced that His Royal Highness Prince Christian, as the only one of The Queen’s grandchildren, is expected to receive an annuity from the state as an adult.

As a natural extension of this, Her Majesty has decided [...] With her decision, Her Majesty The Queen wishes to create the framework for the four grandchildren to be able to shape their own lives to a much greater extent without being limited by the special considerations and duties that a formal affiliation with the Royal House of Denmark as an institution involves."

I think this old post by Muhler explains very well why it is better for the monarchy to have royal relatives (with future spouses) marketing their for-profit business ventures as non-royals than as royals.

Originally Posted by Muhler

To the general public who are not that well versed in titles, there is no real distinction between HH and HRH. - Nikolai is Prince ergo he is a full royal. That also applies to segments of the press, especially when they want to...

Nikolai can very much be compared to Princess Elisabeth I think.
She's never married or had any children, so that "issue" ends with her. And she had a career in the Foreign Ministry, sometimes being deployed abroad. That's an acceptable and safe career for an "inactive" royal. Not controversial and out of sight and out of mind.
And if need be I suppose all Joachim's children can be parked away safely like that. Beforehand younger royals had a career in the military or like Elisabeth became a civil servant or even went into the church or in some cases had a manor somewhere. - Pretty much the traditional career choices for younger siblings of the upper class.
But that does put limitations on their choice of careers.
Nothing that is remotely political. Nothing that brings him into conflict with Danish interests or with segments of the population is acceptable, so that may rule out him being a top executive in a private business. And so on.

The problem is also that the DRF has to neutral in almost every aspect. That also includes inactive members. Otherwise there is a very good chance of that detracting from the monarchy itself. - That sentiment is admittedly sometimes bordering on being hysterical here in DK, but it's there.
It's easier and simpler to renounce the title and just be a count. For Nikolai himself it won't make that big a difference in relation to the DRF. He'll still be invited for family events and such, but not standing with his cousins. I think he'll survive that. It's not like he's being kicked out of a palace or anything like that.

So if Nikolai and his siblings wish to retain their titles as royals and have a career of their own it's better if they settle and work outside DK.

That I think applies to the Nordic monarchies. They have different traditions in the Benelux countries, and yet, even there there have been controversies and scandals when secondary royals have messed things up.

So again: If Nikolai is inactive, it would IMO be simpler for him to officially opt out of the royal roadshow.

We debated something similar in regards to Madeleine when she married. I think she would get much less criticism and be much more free (and so would her husband BTW) had she renounced her royal title when she married.
Now she is criticized for not being active enough, for not being in Sweden enough and so on...

This line in the announcement seems a bit sloppily worded, unless it is intended that literally all descendants of Prince Joachim (through males and females, in or out of wedlock) will be addressed as Excellencies:

"Prince Joachim’s descendants will thus have to be addressed as excellencies in the future."

Only the former princes (not former princess Dagmar) who became Counts of Rosenborg have been addressed as Excellencies. The address does not extend to their wives or descendants.



I like that the change will be implemented on January 1; it will make it easier to remember the date.

Originally Posted by Somebody

Wow, and she has the audacity to make that public... Alexandra's secretary claims that all three parents are deeply shocked by this decision. And big words about loss of identity are being used.

That's a strong statement indeed. But I suppose the Queen can be grateful that at least there is no allegation of racism (Nikolai and Felix being the first biracial descendants of the family) in the statement.

I wonder if the family discord is why the announcement expressly stated

"The Queen’s decision is in line with similar adjustments that other royal houses have made in various ways in recent years."

[muriel]

Originally Posted by Blog Real

Billed Bladet spoke to Countess Alexandra's secretary who says they are all saddened and shocked by the Royal Household's decision to withdraw the titles of princes from Prince Joachim's children.

https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongelig...aeldre-er-dybt

Now that was clearly not a very smart move on Alexandra's part to authorise such a comment being amde.

[Muhler]

My first reaction, without having read the news elsewhere, is that it's no big surprise to me.

I wonder if it's Joachim who requested it?
Because being royals can indeed be a hindrance for whatever life and career - and mistakes - they will have.

And it's not like QMII and the other full members of the DRF will kick them out on the curb to freeze in the rain.

I did however expect they would lose their titles only upon marriage.
The timing does surprise me a little bit, because Nikolai and Felix are still being educated and in immediate danger of getting married.
Henrik and Athene still goes to school.
And there are no other significant things scheduled and no public debate that warrants this action being taken right now.

I cannot help wonder if there are other announcements coming up...

One thought that springs to mind is that Nikolai's sweetheart Benedikte is in "happy circumstances."
Another thought is that QMII retires (not necessarily abdicating, but "only" retiring) from next year and everything is now in the hands of M&F, including whatever overhauls of the court and the DRF they wish to make.

Originally Posted by Blog Real

Billed Bladet spoke to Countess Alexandra's secretary who says they are all saddened and shocked by the Royal Household's decision to withdraw the titles of princes from Prince Joachim's children.

https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongelig...aeldre-er-dybt

Okay!!

That is indeed very odd!!

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by norwegianne

The timing is really odd. It would have made more sense to do it when they first added the Monpezat-titles, or when the kids applied for permission to marry. Not just randomly in a jubilee year.

Originally Posted by Muhler

I did however expect they would lose their titles only upon marriage.
The timing does surprise me a little bit, because Nikolai and Felix are still being educated and in immediate danger of getting married.
Henrik and Athene still goes to school.
And there are no other significant things scheduled and no public debate that warrants this action being taken right now.

I cannot help wonder if there are other announcements coming up...

One thought that springs to mind is that Nikolai's sweetheart Benedikte is in "happy circumstances."
Another thought is that QMII retires (not necessarily abdicating, but "only" retiring) from next year and everything is now in the hands of M&F, including whatever overhauls of the court and the DRF they wish to make.

Yes, it would have been more in keeping with tradition to remove the children from the Royal House, the line of succession, and their royal titles upon marriage, as happened with other princes and one princess. But in this day and age, that might run the risk of being perceived as a move directed against the specific couple getting married.

In retrospect, it would have been best for them not to have been prince and princess at birth.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Blog Real

Billed Bladet spoke to Countess Alexandra's secretary who says they are all saddened and shocked by the Royal Household's decision to withdraw the titles of princes from Prince Joachim's children.
]

https://www.bt.dk/royale/live-dronni...n-deres-titler

"According to the Royal Household's head of communications, Lene Balleby, Prince Joachim has known since May 5 that his children would lose their titles.

- The decision has taken various forms along the way, but Prince Joachim has been involved and briefed throughout the process."

[Biri]

So they are now Count Nikolai, Count Felix, Count Henrik and Countess Athena?

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Biri

So they are now Count Nikolai, Count Felix, Count Henrik and Countess Athena?

No they are still Prince/Princess. It will change on 01.01.2023.

[Sister Morphine]

Originally Posted by Somebody

It will be interesting to see what happens to any children the sisters of the heirs (Isabella and Josephine in Denmark and Alexia and Ariane in the Netherlands) will have.

Considering children can't inherit titles/styles from their mother (unless their mother is the reigning sovereign), their children won't have titles unless their husbands are granted some kind of nobility title when they marry.

So, whoever HRH Princess Isabella marries, for example, will be Master/Miss (or the Danish equivalent) and then their father's last name.

Considering it's 2022, I can see more monarchies doing this, eventually. The days of three or four generations of titled people running around are long gone. You have the sovereign, the sovereign's children, and then the heir's children. That's it. You're still a part of the family, but the title and style of HRH Prince/Princess is restricted to just the direct line of succession.

[suztav]

JMHO -- but, I think this is a very pragmatic decision on the part of QMII. She sees the world for what it is and has observed the tensions in the British royal family over titles.

The Dutch royals do this.

It's the right thing to do.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Sister Morphine

Considering children can't inherit titles/styles from their mother (unless their mother is the reigning sovereign), their children won't have titles unless their husbands are granted some kind of nobility title when they marry.

So, whoever HRH Princess Isabella marries, for example, will be Master/Miss (or the Danish equivalent) and then their father's last name.

There is nothing to prevent the monarch (Denmark) or the government (the Netherlands) from granting a comital title to members of the Royal House.

As for female-line grandchildren having to be "Master/Miss", I presume you are aware that Princess Margrethe's husband and children were Princes of/to Denmark from marriage/birth, Princess Benedikte's husband was offered the title of Prince of Denmark and succession rights for his children if he would agree to raise his children in Denmark (which he refused), and Princess Margriet's children are Princes of Orange-Nassau.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Sister Morphine

Considering children can't inherit titles/styles from their mother (unless their mother is the reigning sovereign), their children won't have titles unless their husbands are granted some kind of nobility title when they marry.

So, whoever HRH Princess Isabella marries, for example, will be Master/Miss (or the Danish equivalent) and then their father's last name.

The 'unless'is the reason I am raising this question. Even in the past various decisions have been made in the various European royal family. So, I wonderr how they will go about this issue in the future in the various royal houses. The Swedish decided on granting princely titles to children of daughters (as did the Dutch in a previous generation but in the next they decided that count was sufficient even in male line), the Norwegians are untitled and the British previously gave titles to the husband of a princess but do so no longer, and the Spanish grandchildren are excellencies, while the Belgians went full out and even have grandchildren by an out-of-wedlock born daighter as prince(ss). So, while I'd like to see some consistency at least within each house it is clear that the (recent) developments in how daughters are to be trrated compared to sons are changing the old ways of having princely titles only kept and passed on in male-line upon an ebenburtig and approved marriage.

[Muhler]

I have read a number of comments in various papers.

While the commentators understand why the titles are taken from Joachim's children there is considerable bewilderment in regards to the the reaction from Alexandra - who claims to speak on behalf of herself and Joachim.

The court has said that Joachim has been involved all the way. - Which can mean anything from actually being consulted to simply being informed about the decision.
So unless Joachim comes out and says clearly that he has indeed been fully informed and consulted, the rumors that there is a strain between Joachim and Frederik, and that J&M were ordered to France (which they have more or less suggested in at east a couple of articles) will gain credit.

Joachim is likely to come out and support the decision of QMII - anything less would be sensational!
However, I will be very much looking forward to the upcoming interviews with J&M and also Alexandra. (I think Alexandra is genuinely miffed but I also think she has been kept out. She is not a senior member of the DRF, so she will basically have to eat what QMII dish out.)

I think this has been handled in a very peculiar way!

Okay, stripping Joachim's children of their titles. Fair enough, no surprise there.
But why not make sure it is fully coordinated? I.e. the court issue a statement, with the fully informed parents of the children, also issuing their statements at the same time. Some blah-blah about understanding and accepting the decision.

As it is now, I at least, have the distinct impression that certainly Alexandra, Nikolai and Felix - perhaps Marie as well, have not been informed prior to this decision being announced.
Which strikes me as a major communications blunder. Both in regards to the public but also internally within the family.

Anyway, the DRF will get away with it.

M&F are the superstars of the DRF, they have taken over in so many ways, that they are the regent couple in pretty much anything but name now. - And more importantly are seen and accepted as being the de facto regent couple.
On top of that there are plenty of other things to occupy people's minds these days, that any public debate about this will be short.

Alexandra is a faded celebrity by now. She does however take a very keen interest in her boys, so I can well imagine that she feels insulted.
J&M are in exile in France - and who knows whether they will return or whatever they are going to do? Perhaps opt out of the DRF as active members?
Nikolai. I don't know if he is miffed. Perhaps. From a cynical commercial point of view he may become less interesting as a model, when he is "just" a count.
From what little I know of Felix, I don't think he minds.
Henrik and Athena? They are children and probably just wish to be like the other children they associate, so losing their royal titles, probably will make little to no impact on them.
They were destined to be in the fringes of the DRF anyway.

- I do however wonder, as one member suggested here, that QMII is making a number of unpleasant decisions and reforms within the DRF, preventing Frederik form having to make them. And making a decision like this on her own and suddenly, may repeat may, help Frederik in mending a very plausible rift in the relationship between him and Joachim.
I'm actually very surprised I have not seen the word abdication in any of the comments yet. - Because the timing is at the same time both odd, and very logical, depending on that exact word: Abdication.

ADDED:
Athena will be Countess of Monpezat, but unlike her brothers she cannot pass that title on to her children.

[eya]

I think the Queen's decision is wise.

Eventually sooner or later all monarchies will do this.

Something fun!

https://twitter.com/notaroyalexpert/...240961/photo/1

[Tatiana Maria]

Here is the Danish version of the announcement:

https://www.kongehuset.dk/nyheder/%C...gelige-familie



Thank you to Muhler for the additional information. The court stating that Prince Joachim was informed in May, but not commenting on when his children or their mothers were informed (according to what has been posted in this thread thus far), appears to support Countess Alexandra's statement that the decision was a surprise (to at least some members of the family).

While I don't think the Queen's family members ought to have veto power over her decisions regarding titles and membership of the Royal House, they should preferably have been consulted, and at minimum given plenty of advance notice, for a major decision which directly affects their lives. If they truly were left to learn about it from the press release, that would be thoughtless at best and deeply disrespectful and hurtful at worst.


Regarding Countess Alexandra's comment that her children and stepchildren are being stripped of their identity: As somebody who has argued against stripping British Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie of their princess titles when they are in their thirties, I do agree that there is some harm in imposing what is for all practical purposes a name change on an adult.

However, there are countervailing forces in the case of Nikolai and his siblings (which are not applicable to the British princesses):

They have grown up with the knowledge that royal status is not guaranteed for life. Their grandmother's paternal cousins, all three of whom were still alive ten years ago, had been forced to choose between marrying the partners they loved and keeping their royal titles, house membership and privileges, which meant that two of them were Counts of Rosenborg by the time Nikolai was born.

If the princes had kept their titles after marriage, there would also have been an expectation from at least some members of the public that these titles would be passed on to their wives and descendants.

Nikolai, at least (I have not been following Felix's career), has extensively used his princely title for earning money. (It would be interesting to know if Nikolai and Felix, and Marie on behalf of her minor children, were asked to voluntarily renounce the commercial usage of their royal titles. If any of them were unwilling to do so, that could have played a part in the decision to strip the titles instead of simply issuing a policy against using them commercially, as in Norway or Sweden.)

Originally Posted by Muhler

Athena will be Countess of Monpezat, but unlike her brothers she cannot pass that title on to her children.

And unlike her brothers, she will be demoted to a plain Mrs. if she marries a commoner. I hope that will be changed.

[W.Y.CII]

Question: is this "standardized" in future? Like will the children of Vincent also not have Prince/ss of Denmark title but only Count/ess of Monpezat (I assume Isabella and Josephine can't pass the title to their children)? Or is it just a one-off change from Joachim's kids?

[Muhler]

Indeed. QMII has just prevented four possible Märtha-Louise scenarios.

And Alexandra has been very active in supporting Nikolai's modelling career, which I very much doubt would be as successful, let alone well paid, had he not had the title of Prince. - There are many competitors in the modelling business out there.

I can envision that in some cases the DRF have discussions that are top secret. I.e. only the very top members of the DRF are involved. - Everybody else are not informed (a "need not know") or deliberately kept in the dark, for fear of a leak. Accidental or otherwise.
Alexandra is not even a member of the DRF, so if Joachim has been told to not breathe a word about this, it's possible he would not have informed Alexandra. - Sorry, Alex. Orders.

And before you ask: Yes, I think Mary would have been informed. If for no other reason that she occasionally acts as Rigsforstander.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by W.Y.CII

Question: is this "standardized" in future? Like will the children of Vincent also not have Prince/ss of Denmark title but only Count/ess of Monpezat (I assume Isabella and Josephine can't pass the title to their children)? Or is it just a one-off change from Joachim's kids?

It has been announced as applying specifically to Joachim's children/descendants (they talk about 'the grandchildren' so it seems they are using the various terms interchangeably) but I expect this will be the way forward. Only the children of the heirs will be prince(sse)s and not those of their siblings. As I wrote previously, it will be interesting to see what happens to Isabella's and Josephine's children. Vincent's children will be count/countess of Monpezat - as will the children of Nikolai, Felix and Henrik; as that title is a nobility title, so will follow the normal rules for the nobility.

[Blog Real]

Originally Posted by W.Y.CII

Question: is this "standardized" in future? Like will the children of Vincent also not have Prince/ss of Denmark title but only Count/ess of Monpezat (I assume Isabella and Josephine can't pass the title to their children)? Or is it just a one-off change from Joachim's kids?

This will be the default in the future as well. I think there is no doubt about that.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by W.Y.CII

Question: is this "standardized" in future? Like will the children of Vincent also not have Prince/ss of Denmark title but only Count/ess of Monpezat (I assume Isabella and Josephine can't pass the title to their children)? Or is it just a one-off change from Joachim's kids?

It's up to the monarch.

The monarch can choose to strip say Vincent and Isabella of their royal titles, but allow Josephine to keep hers.

It depends on the circumstances.

But as long as Christian or Isabella does not have children, Vincent and Josephine will keep their royal titles. - Just in case.
But the second there is an heir and spare in fully working order, we are likely to see the DRF being reduced in numbers again.

There is after all a reason why Nikolai and Felix were titled Princes to Denmark from birth - it was their right so to speak, and it would keep things simpler, in case Frederik never had children.

It has been suggested by one commentator that Joachim was sacked and shipped off to France, once it was certain he was no longer needed as a spare and that this only confirms it.
- I don't agree with that version - yet.
Anyway, we discussed that at length in the Joachim thread.

But I think we are going to see Isabella (and her children) going through the same moves as Joachim. She will be a spare, supporting her brother, until the succession by Christian is secure.
- I hope that M&F will handle that in a less clumsy way by then. At least in regards to the public.

[Tatiana Maria]

I overlooked this previously, but it seems the four grandchildren will also lose their formal membership of the Royal House at the same time as their royal titles on January 1.

"With her decision, Her Majesty The Queen wishes to create the framework for the four grandchildren to be able to shape their own lives to a much greater extent without being limited by the special considerations and duties that a formal affiliation with the Royal House of Denmark as an institution involves."

I assume they will remain members of the Royal Family, the same as Princess Benedikte's children.

So the only remaining inconsistency with their soon to be status as private citizens is that they will remain in line to the throne, but that is not something the queen can unilaterally alter at the moment, as succession to the throne is governed by the constitutional Act of Succession.

To resolve the inconsistency, I hope the ex-princes(s) will not seek or receive the monarch's formal permission to marry. Marriage without permission will automatically remove them from the line of succession to the throne, according to the terms of the Act of Succession.

Originally Posted by W.Y.CII

Question: is this "standardized" in future? Like will the children of Vincent also not have Prince/ss of Denmark title but only Count/ess of Monpezat (I assume Isabella and Josephine can't pass the title to their children)? Or is it just a one-off change from Joachim's kids?

Originally Posted by Somebody

It has been announced as applying specifically to Joachim's children/descendants (they talk about 'the grandchildren' so it seems they are using the various terms interchangeably) but I expect this will be the way forward. Only the children of the heirs will be prince(sse)s and not those of their siblings. As I wrote previously, it will be interesting to see what happens to Isabella's and Josephine's children. Vincent's children will be count/countess of Monpezat - as will the children of Nikolai, Felix and Henrik; as that title is a nobility title, so will follow the normal rules for the nobility.

True, although the statement in the press release about this decision being an extension of the 2016 announcement that only Prince Christian would receive an annuity from the state suggests that the same would apply in the next generation if Prince Christian's heir is the only member of their generation to receive state funding.