New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

To keep this thread on Danish royal titles on-topic, I respectfully suggest that any discussion about abdications in Denmark, Norway, or Sweden be moved to a more appropriate thread.

Here is the thread on Abdication in the General Royal Discussion forum.

Abdication

Most of the system is "equal" in the sense that you are using the term. If a nobleman has marital sons of different races or religions, for example, those sons will be treated equally as far the devolution of noble titles is concerned.

Thanks

Respectfully, my observation/reaction about a couple of lines about it on Tommy100's post. No speculation involved. Just an observation

My observation was on the end of the year message and how it relates to the titles' situation. If I dissected my reply into its parts, and not keep the train of thought, I'll be spinning all over the place.

Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
The Queen should and should have dealt with it better. As should Joachim. But I guess he also felt he was taking the lead from his mother who had sent staff to tell him about it rather than discuss it in person, maybe he felt that justified talking to his mother through the press rather than in person.

I still don't get the rush to do this and why Marge effectively self-sabotaged her own Jubilee year. The only way the timing would make sense to me if she is announced in her New Year's Eve address that she is abdicating thus it becomes clear she acted quickly to ensure the perfect set up for Frederik and to save him from having to make these decisions. I doubt she is going to do that so again why it couldn't have waited until 2023 to deal with, especially when it was clear there was no consensus.

End of the Year from Royal Central UK

Annus Mirabilis or Annus Horribilis? The Danish Year in Review

[Archduchess Zelia]

Rather than a review of the DRF's year, it seems more like a compilation of all that questionable website's articles.

[Tatiana Maria]

It surprised me to read the frankness with which the Queen addressed the family conflict in the her New Year's Speech. I'm aware that it is not the first time she has been painfully honest regarding her struggles as a spouse and parent, but nevertheless, it is difficult to imagine most monarchs saying something of this nature in a major official speech.

https://www.kongehuset.dk/en/news/re...r-address-2022

For most of us, our family is one of the most important things in life. We see how our children develop, and how they tackle life’s challenges each in their own way. We are happy for them, we worry about them, and we wish for them to do well.

I always feel great love for my entire family. Difficulties and misunderstandings may arise in any family, also in mine. The whole country has witnessed that.

That the relationship with Prince Joachim and Princess Marie has run into difficulties makes me sad.

We have now had a quieter period and time for reflection, and I am sure that our family can embark on the new year together with confidence, understanding, and new courage.

After the coronavirus has released its grip on society, the Crown Prince and the Crown Princess have had plenty to do once again with a full programme. They have looked forward to this and have thrown themselves into the task with great enthusiasm.

All my eight grandchildren are a source of great joy to me. How they have grown, how time flies! Next October, Prince Christian will turn 18. It will be a special day, which we are all looking forward to.

Perhaps this is reading too much into the speech, but I wonder if her mention of Prince Joachim and Princess Marie by name before the remarks on embarking on the new year as a family indicates that her relations with them are on the mend whereas her relationship with her adult grandsons is not - as that would be consistent with Prince Joachim stating that he and his mother have finally begun to communicate followed by Prince Nikolai and Prince Felix having their spokesperson announce that the Queen has not contacted them.

Is this the first time that one of the parties has explicitly referred to "misunderstandings"? Which suggests that lack of communication was not the only problem but that at least one person misinterpreted what was communicated to them.

Originally Posted by Muhler

The Order of the Elephant? - No, I don't think so.
Danish holders of that order are automatically invited to the New Year Court and is pretty much expected to show up.
Joachim's children who are destined to have no active role within the DRF, won't get the order.

Interesting. I was thinking that adopting the precedent of the many other princes who have been demoted to counts (Ingolf, Christian, Flemming, et al) would be the most appropriate and justifiable protocol, but I believe those ex-princes remained Knights of the Order of the Elephant, so perhaps that would be inappropriate. On the other hand, could the form of address Excellency awarded to Prince Joachim's children be considered as equivalent in rank to Knights of the Order of the Elephant?

Further complicating the issue, Joachim's children maintaining their personal pages on the Royal Family website and remaining in line to the throne also implies they are still half-in, half-out.

Originally Posted by kimebear

The easiest resolution to this all would have been to let Joachim's children keep their titles as Prince/Princess with the new stipulation that they (and any other HH going forward) would not be allowed to pass their titles on to their own children. Any child of an HH would carry only the Count/Countess title.

That solves the dilemmas of bad optics and keeping the number of princely members of the royal family down to a minimum in one fell swoop.

For clarification, are you proposing that Prince Joachim's children should have been allowed to maintain their prince/ssly titles even if they married commoners, even though past HHs were not permitted to do so?

Originally Posted by Muhler

Even though it was wise of QMII to admit openly that there are problems within the family, she carefully avoided pointing a finger at someone and it was not an apology.
Had it been an apology, she could have said something along the lines of people make mistakes, she too.

Which to me suggests that she believes that at least her decision was correct.

I think we can assume she stands by the title decision as she has not revoked it, which would be within her prerogative. As for the problems within the family, perhaps that is more complicated to address since she was clearly not the only one who made mistakes.

[Muhler]

Aaaaand here we go again:
https://www.bt.dk/royale/grev-nikola...vaeret-foruden

Nikolai has talked to BT, being asked how it feels to be a count after the New Year celebration:
"It's a strange feeling and an experience I'd rather be without. (Very much a Joachim wording! And not typical of someone of Nikolai's age.)
But that it is how it is now. I will for the rest of my life be proud of the years, where I was allowed to be prince to Denmark."

I don't think another form of address will be an option (or enough?) especially as it would hardly ever be used.
It's count now. Live with it and move on IMO.

[Izzie]

I feel for the kids. Maybe I just have a bit of empathy and sympathy that others don't have. Maybe karma will find them marrying into other royal families and having higher titles than some of their cousins will have in the future...wouldn't that be ironic.

And I doubt this will go away and some press will always bring this debacle up whenever they can. Oh well...it may always be an overshadow....decisions and actions have consequences.

[marfre]

Originally Posted by Izzie

I feel for the kids. Maybe I just have a bit of empathy and sympathy that others don't have. Maybe karma will find them marrying into other royal families and having higher titles than some of their cousins will have in the future...wouldn't that be ironic.

And I doubt this will go away and some press will always bring this debacle up whenever they can. Oh well...it may always be an overshadow....decisions and actions have consequences.

So you are hoping that Christians siblings do not have a high title so that Joachims children can let them know that they now hold a title higher than theirs.

[tommy100]

Would be an interesting turn of events. I wonder if the next steps for the Danish RF is to stop recognising the titles of the Queen's sisters families which are no longer legal titles in their home countries anyway.

[Blog Real]

Originally Posted by tommy100

Would be an interesting turn of events. I wonder if the next steps for the Danish RF is to stop recognising the titles of the Queen's sisters families which are no longer legal titles in their home countries anyway.

Obviously that's not going to happen. The children of the Queen's sisters are not members of the Danish royal house.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Izzie

I feel for the kids. Maybe I just have a bit of empathy and sympathy that others don't have. Maybe karma will find them marrying into other royal families and having higher titles than some of their cousins will have in the future...wouldn't that be ironic.

As men, it is not guaranteed that Nikolai or Felix would have a princely title if they married a foreign princess. In the UK, Spain, Norway, and the Netherlands for example, that would probably happen now only if they were lucky enough to marry the heiress to the throne. In Sweden, there is no clear post-1980 precedent, as Chris O'Neill declined any Swedish title by refusing to become a Swedish citizen, but my understanding is that, before Chris, Jonas was going to become a Duke, but not a Prince.

Note: In the UK, Philip himself was created a prince only many years after he married Princess Elizabeth, but I would expect a princely title to be granted sooner in the future should a similar situation arise again in the British RF, which, in Nikolai's and Felix's case, is not possible anyway.

[tommy100]

Originally Posted by Blog Real

Obviously that's not going to happen. The children of the Queen's sisters are not members of the Danish royal house.

You mean you can have title Prince / Princess and not be part of the Danish Royal House but be part of the family. Shhh don't tell Joachim that

[FigTree]

Originally Posted by Izzie

I feel for the kids. Maybe I just have a bit of empathy and sympathy that others don't have. Maybe karma will find them marrying into other royal families and having higher titles than some of their cousins will have in the future...wouldn't that be ironic.

And I doubt this will go away and some press will always bring this debacle up whenever they can. Oh well...it may always be an overshadow....decisions and actions have consequences.

That isn’t empathic that’s revenge tilted. Yes it is a decision tinged with rejection for them but hopefully they know they are loved and will see this as a business decision.

[Prinsara]

Whatever one may think of their grandmother or father, I think they are four nice, respectful kids and young adults who didn't earn this and deserved a lot better than public awkwardness and humiliation. I hope they find a way to have a Happy New Year regardless.

[Blog Real]

Originally Posted by tommy100

You mean you can have title Prince / Princess and not be part of the Danish Royal House but be part of the family. Shhh don't tell Joachim that

What I mean is that the children of Queen Anne-Marie and Princess Benedikte are members of foreign royal houses and therefore the titles they hold are not related to the Danish royal house. It is not difficult to understand.

[camelot23ca]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Aaaaand here we go again:
https://www.bt.dk/royale/grev-nikola...vaeret-foruden

Nikolai has talked to BT, being asked how it feels to be a count after the New Year celebration:
"It's a strange feeling and an experience I'd rather be without. (Very much a Joachim wording! And not typical of someone of Nikolai's age.)
But that it is how it is now. I will for the rest of my life be proud of the years, where I was allowed to be prince to Denmark."

I don't think another form of address will be an option (or enough?) especially as it would hardly ever be used.
It's count now. Live with it and move on IMO.

The statement would have been fine if he’d left out “and an experience I’d rather be without.” I still think saying nothing would be the best option, but if Nikolai feels the need to keep commenting he should at least take the high road and not say anything that seems whiny, catty or petty.

I don’t see what benefit comes from ongoing commentary of this sort from Joachim’s branch of the family (or really anyone in the DRF). Everyone has had their say, including some who have had their say multiple times now. Enough is enough.

Originally Posted by Izzie

I feel for the kids. Maybe I just have a bit of empathy and sympathy that others don't have. Maybe karma will find them marrying into other royal families and having higher titles than some of their cousins will have in the future...wouldn't that be ironic.

And I doubt this will go away and some press will always bring this debacle up whenever they can. Oh well...it may always be an overshadow....decisions and actions have consequences.

Having a royal title doesn’t mean you somehow win over a non titled family member or friend. If you’re the monarch or the heir it means you have some real privileges that are entirely due to your rank, several decorative but non substantive privileges, and in exchange you get quite a few major, life long constraints and limitations. If you’re a more junior royal you get no real privileges, a few non substantive privileges and some less severe constraints.

If you have no royal title but are the grandchild/nephew of the King or Queen you get no official privileges but you still have an enormous amount of social capital, unrivalled family connections, the sort of education that ensures life long friendships with other very privileged families, along with access to professional opportunities that your royal cousins can’t take advantage of, but that would never be offered to less fortunate commoners. Because you’re not beholden to the public in any way you can take full advantage of all these opportunities. Tell me how this isn’t the best of both worlds?

If Joachim’s kids’ sense of self worth is wrapped up in their titles that’s a different issue, one that relates more to how they were parented.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Some news from Alexandra's secretary:
https://www.bt.dk/royale/grevinde-al...-ikke-talt-med

BT has talked to Helle von Wildenrath Løvgreen regarding Nikolai and Felix.

[...]

How does Nikolai and Felix feel about that?
Helle von Wildenrath Løvgreen: "Nothing has changed. They are still incredibly sad. They don't understand why.
They have always known that the day would come, because when they married their titles would disappear. As Nikolai said, it would thus happen, when he himself wanted to and it would be on a happy day.
Instead they now feel punished and as if they have done something wrong."

Originally Posted by Muhler

Aaaaand here we go again:
https://www.bt.dk/royale/grev-nikola...vaeret-foruden

Nikolai has talked to BT, being asked how it feels to be a count after the New Year celebration:
"It's a strange feeling and an experience I'd rather be without. (Very much a Joachim wording! And not typical of someone of Nikolai's age.)
But that it is how it is now. I will for the rest of my life be proud of the years, where I was allowed to be prince to Denmark."

Then, is Nikolai saying that even though he always knew the (wedding) day would come when he would lose his Prince title, he still felt strange about it and would prefer never to lose it although he knew it would happen? Or is he saying that the strange experience he would rather be without is having it occur at this time and in this manner, instead of quietly(?) upon marriage as he originally expected?

[Hans-Rickard]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Aaaaand here we go again:
https://www.bt.dk/royale/grev-nikola...vaeret-foruden

Nikolai has talked to BT, being asked how it feels to be a count after the New Year celebration:
"It's a strange feeling and an experience I'd rather be without. (Very much a Joachim wording! And not typical of someone of Nikolai's age.)
But that it is how it is now. I will for the rest of my life be proud of the years, where I was allowed to be prince to Denmark."

I don't think another form of address will be an option (or enough?) especially as it would hardly ever be used.
It's count now. Live with it and move on IMO.

He isn’t Joachims son for nothing But i suspect Alexandra isn’t that much better in helping the children to come to terms with their new titles/identities….

[Biri]

This mish-mash wouldn't have happened if Nikolai and Felix had been titled as Counts de Montpezat from the beginning (their births) and, eventually, elevated to the rank of the Princes only in case of His uncle Frederik's infertility.

The firstborn granddaughter of then Queen Beatrix was never a Princess, wasn't she?

[GömdNatt]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

Whatever one may think of their grandmother or father, I think they are four nice, respectful kids and young adults who didn't earn this and deserved a lot better than public awkwardness and humiliation. I hope they find a way to have a Happy New Year regardless.

What earning??? Nikolai and Felix have never undertaken official duties for the Queen in their adulthood, have they? That, to me, is earning the title of Prince/ss in this day and age. Running around and getting to be called Prince while you do nothing for the royal house is entitled.

I'm sorry, but Nikolai is acting like a spoiled brat and showing, imo, that he certainly is not deserving of representing the royal family.

I agree with Biri, Joachim's children should have been titled Count/ess from the start.

[Prinsara]

Originally Posted by GömdNatt

What earning??? Nikolai and Felix have never undertaken official duties for the Queen in their adulthood, have they? That, to me, is earning the title of Prince/ss in this day and age. Running around and getting to be called Prince while you do nothing for the royal house is entitled.

I'm sorry, but Nikolai is acting like a spoiled brat and showing, imo, that he certainly is not deserving of representing the royal family.

I agree with Biri, Joachim's children should have been titled Count/ess from the start.

Way to take an attempt at a non-controversial post and call Nikolai a spoiled brat. Says more about you than it does about him.

[polyesco]

It's disappointing that Nikolai has again talked to the press. When he says that he is proud of his time as prince, I can't help but think of his lack of involvement in his and Felix Foundation. Not even one pic.