New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

Why would there be public protests when QMII and Joachim are still negotiating for something? It must be for something because there hasn't been another announcement yet.

There is also the question of where, oh where, uninvolved Frederik was for an entire month. That it apparently took him to compose one brief statement.

The first thought that springs to my mind, is that they have been talking. - Something has been going on behind the doors.
But the decision stands and is final. - And that's why Frederik comes out now.
He is trying to mend things with Joachim, while still supporting the Monarch - as he should.

Whether they discussed options or alternatives, modifications or anything at all, is open to speculation. But it seems clear to me that this issue has reached the end of the line as far as QMII and the DRF in general goes.

- So yes, Joachim, Alexandra and Nikolai (Felix has wisely remained silent) can go public and voice their dissatisfaction but it won't change anything. Certainly not now that Frederik has gone out in a - albeit - a little lukewarm support of QMII's decision.

I also believe the public sympathy will be much more limited this time if they do go public. That topic came and went, and people have moved on and there are other things on the agenda right now.
And keep in mind that while the public in general felt sympathy for Joachim and his children, the majority was in agreement with QMII, it was the way it was handled that many people objected against.

[polyesco]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

Why would there be public protests when QMII and Joachim are still negotiating for something? It must be for something because there hasn't been another announcement yet.

There is also the question of where, oh where, uninvolved Frederik was for an entire month. That it apparently took him to compose one brief statement.

I don't think Frederik was uninvolved but more of a lets discuses this in private kind of person. No need to throw his only brother under the bus in public. Disagreements are best handled in private without the press twisting and turning every word.

[camelot23ca]

I think Frederik’s statement shows what an awkward position he’s been put in. He agrees with his mother’s decision while also emphasizing that it was her decision to make (thereby implying that his agreement is incidental - the important thing is QM’s decision stands, period). At the same time, he sympathizes with his brother and clearly doesn’t want his relationship with Joachim and his children damaged. And, most of all, he sees this as a family issue that should be dealt with in private from now on.

Maybe awkward isn’t the word. It’s a simple issue for the Danish monarchy, but a complicated one for the family.

[Erin9]

Originally Posted by Muhler

As I understand and interpret Frederik's comment:

This was clearly QMII's decision - and Frederik was at best only marginally involved and that he more or less grudgingly accept the decision, because the Monarch has spoken. (I noticed that he did not use the word: mother.) And that's it!

The decision cannot and will not be changed (or modified) - at least not while QMII is on the throne. (He can hardly say he intends to look into the matter when he becomes king. Nor that he disagree with the decision. If indeed he does, that is.)



It is my clear impression that Frederik fully supports the core of the decision. That is to reduce the number of titled/full DRF members. (How is of course an open question and open for debate.)



It is also my impression that Frederik show sympathy for his brother. (Again, he can hardly say it publicly if he disagree with QMII.) And that Joachim's strong reaction was unexpected.

But it's also a: Sorry, Joachim. Accept it and live with it.



- So the ball is now on Joachim and not least Alexandra's half of the field.

Their reaction will determine whether this will continue to be a public spectacle or not.

But they will not get anything more than face to face sympathy from M&F.

It will be interesting to see whether J&M will show up for future royal events, like the Grand New Year Court and QMII being celebrated by the public on 12th November - or whether they will "excuse" themselves.

If we do not see at least J&M at the New Year Court then we can be sure that there is a deep bitterness between Joachim and his family and QMII.



It will also be most interesting to see the balcony appearance 16th April next year. - Because normally only the full titled members of the DRF appear together on the balcony - and until 1st January that included Joachim's children. Even Benedikte usually stay off the balcony.

So will Nikolai and Felix be there?

None of Joachim's children?

Only Athena and Henrik, because they are still children?

Or will J&M and all the children stay off the balcony? - That to me will indicate a very deep, public and I dare say official bitterness within the family.







Well, Iceflower and Polyesco's translations are spot on.

Thanks, Muhler.


In another post “lukewarm” was used to describe Fredrick’s support, which is the tone I took as well.

I can see supporting the idea- slimming down in general - but not necessarily the how and timing of it all.

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

Why would there be public protests when QMII and Joachim are still negotiating for something? It must be for something because there hasn't been another announcement yet.

There is also the question of where, oh where, uninvolved Frederik was for an entire month. That it apparently took him to compose one brief statement.

What on earth would they be "negotiating"? QMII isn't going to roll back her decision just because Joachim has been publicly kicking his feet as that would suggest she has the backbone of a chocolate eclair. The talks between QMII and Joachim have been about mending what's been broken by her decision. There will be no more announcements, as what's left is a private matter – as explicitly stated by the DRF.

As for Frederik, if I'm not mistaken – barring the Opening of the Parliament, during that they cleverly refused to make about them – this was his first public engagement since the announcement. Are you suggesting he should've put out a statement? If so, why? It wasn't his decision.

[MARG]

To be honest, I think there is just not enough communication between Queen Margrethe and her sons. It seems like the edict came out of the blue and caught everyone off guard, from Frederik and Mary to Alexandra, Joachim, and Marie. The people most affected were caught off guard and as a result, were a little less discreet when caught flat-footed by the media.

The upshot of this is that there is now a rift in the DRF and the entire country saw its cause. It was not well done but a weird validation that the BRF isn't the only royal family that puts the 'dys' in dysfunctional.

[ronald biver]

Originally Posted by MARG

To be honest, I think there is just not enough communication between Queen Margrethe and her sons. It seems like the edict came out of the blue and caught everyone off guard, from Frederik and Mary to Alexandra, Joachim, and Marie. The people most affected were caught off guard and as a result, were a little less discreet when caught flat-footed by the media.

The upshot of this is that there is now a rift in the DRF and the entire country saw its cause. It was not well done but a weird validation that the BRF isn't the only royal family that puts the 'dys' in dysfunctional.

I think you are right, queen Margrethe has handled it very badly regarding the titles, the queen consulted the whole title debacle with the government and not with her two sons, I wouldn't be surprise, that her second sister princess Benedikte is also consulted. Afterall princess Benedikte is always present with the opening of the Danish parliament every year.

[yukari]

Originally Posted by MARG

To be honest, I think there is just not enough communication between Queen Margrethe and her sons. It seems like the edict came out of the blue and caught everyone off guard , from Frederik and Mary to Alexandra, Joachim, and Marie. The people most affected were caught off guard and as a result, were a little less discreet when caught flat-footed by the media.

The upshot of this is that there is now a rift in the DRF and the entire country saw its cause. It was not well done but a weird validation that the BRF isn't the only royal family that puts the 'dys' in dysfunctional.

Didn't Joachim say he was informed of the plan (whichever plan it was) in May, and he also knew about the announcement five days prior?

[Tatiana Maria]

In regards to the adult grandsons' professional usage of their titles: To judge from their modeling agency profiles, there appears to be a difference in how pervasively their titles were used. Both working princes are listed under the name Prince X, but Nikolai's portfolio of photoshoots includes six magazine covers on which he is called "Prince Nikolai of Denmark" or "Nikolai, Prince of Denmark", while Felix's portfolio does not seem to include any.

https://scoopmodels.com/model/prince-nikolai-1
https://scoopmodels.com/model/prince-felix

It would be interesting to know whether that is simply a matter of personal preference - or if perhaps by the time Prince Felix's career was well underway, the royal family had already begun taking steps towards phasing out the use of royal titles for business marketing. Perhaps someone who has been following the princes' careers could clarify.

Originally Posted by Somebody

If losing your princely title damages your career (because the whole saga afterwards is due to his parents making damaging statements to the media - not to the decision itself), this proofs that she made the right decision as his career shouldn't be built on his connection to the royal family. [...]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

I'm pretty sure that having to change the name you work under is a result of the decision, not any comments that were made afterwards. And also that you can say "oh, well, if his career gets damaged because of rules that were in place before" — rules that he accepted, obeyed, and didn't make up in the first place — "too bad", that's a bit callous.

I think it is more likely that adopting his title as his professional name was something he freely chose, instead of being compulsory. And per his mother's comments to CNN about the prior expectation that he would lose his royal title upon marriage, he would have made the choice in the full knowledge that he might lose the title, and thereby need to change his professional name, at a relatively young age.

And the original argument, as I understood it, was not "oh, well, if his career gets damaged because of rules that were in place before", but arguing that the removal of unfair advantages is the correct course even if it would be "damaging" in the sense of eliminating that advantage.

Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1

Well, I am asking because they are sons of a second son. So why should it really have been a big deal to anyone? Especially as they will never reign so whether it looks bad or not would be pointless.

To your first comment, I am aware of the issue of marrying commoners prior to the current generation, but my point was that seeing as the Queen married a commoner herself, regardless of him being foreign or not, the fact is that she married a commoner. Nikolai’s hypothetical marriage should not matter because he is the son of a second son. Also, Henrik was no Count or at least not a confirmed member of the former French nobility.

You can’t really compare Henrik to Viscountess Anson because although her titles were courtesy and weren’t held in her own right, the difference is that her ties to nobility were confirmed and genuine and she had ties to the British Royal house via QEQM. Maybe status mattered a lot to Princess Elisabeth of Denmark, but I’m not so familiar with her.

The thing with Alexandra’s statement we don’t actually if Nikolai will marry his Danish girlfriend so I won’t say anything until it actually happens.

We are all entitled to our own opinions on whose marriages should or should not matter, or what sorts of family ties should be a prerequisite for a spouse to be counted as noble or equal (I personally see no major difference between them), but the fact of the matter is that those decisions are not for us to make.

The Kings and Queen who have been in charge of these matters have held children of second sons to equally strict, or even stricter, marital standards than the main line - as the example of Princess Elisabeth and her brothers compared to Princes Frederik and Joachim illustrates. They also recognized the nobility of Anne, Viscountess Anson and Count Henri de Laborde de Monpezat, who also were both foreigners, and so their approvals of any of these marriages cannot be argued to demand that the Queen (or future King) grant approval for a hypothetical marriage between Prince Nikolai and Benedikte Thoustrup.

Originally Posted by MARG

To be honest, I think there is just not enough communication between Queen Margrethe and her sons. It seems like the edict came out of the blue and caught everyone off guard, from Frederik and Mary to Alexandra, Joachim, and Marie. The people most affected were caught off guard and as a result, were a little less discreet when caught flat-footed by the media.

Originally Posted by yukari

Didn't Joachim say he was informed of the plan (whichever plan it was) in May, and he also knew about the announcement five days prior?

Yukari is right, more or less (there was some debate over what exactly the prince meant).

Prince Joachim's statements were shared and discussed at length earlier in this thread, see here for instance: https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2496023

[Prinsara]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

In regards to the adult grandsons' professional usage of their titles: To judge from their modeling agency profiles, there appears to be a difference in how pervasively their titles were used. Both working princes are listed under the name Prince X, but Nikolai's portfolio of photoshoots includes six magazine covers on which he is called "Prince Nikolai of Denmark" or "Nikolai, Prince of Denmark", while Felix's portfolio does not seem to include any.

https://scoopmodels.com/model/prince-nikolai-1
https://scoopmodels.com/model/prince-felix

It would be interesting to know whether that is simply a matter of personal preference - or if perhaps by the time Prince Felix's career was well underway, the royal family had already begun taking steps towards phasing out the use of royal titles for business marketing. Perhaps someone who has been following the princes' careers could clarify.

I don't think that has to do with anything regarding titles as much as the fact that Nikolai has had a substantial career and portfolio. Felix has had one job (that we know of, and it was for a domestic company). If Felix had appeared in more things I'm sure he would have been billed as "Prince of Denmark" as well.

Both brothers are obviously listed as "Prince", as the agency's links show.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Muhler

It is within the power of QMII to bestow a personal title on Athena, that cannot be inherited by her children though.

Originally Posted by Prinsara

No, there's basically nothing that can be done about titles once they're already granted. You have to grant new ones stipulating that they're hereditary and not for life, for example.

Also if Denmark is anything like the UK changing the rules for peerage titles would involve Parliament. It's not just something solely within the monarch's control.

Can the two of you explain which act of parliament or unwritten legal convention (etc.) stipulates that noble titles are unremovable and that the monarch may not bestow a hereditary noble title upon a woman/with remainder to a woman's descendants?

I am not saying that either of you are necessarily wrong, but I personally have been unable to locate that information. The Constitution does not mention it, and the website of the Danish nobility association is unfortunately silent on the subject of nobiliary law.

Originally Posted by Sister Morphine

I don't see how Isabella and Josephine's titles would ever change. Denmark doesn't have a peerage system, at least not that I'm aware of, so Frederik couldn't create one of his daughters as the Duchess of Whatever. The titles they currently have are all the titles they'd ever have unless they married into foreign royalty.

As discussed previously, it is possible that they will lose their princess titles upon marriage (just as numerous princes and one princess have before them), and the Crown Princess also recently stated that her children's titles may be "looked at" in the future.

Originally Posted by Sister Morphine

If QMII means to slim down the monarchy so that only the direct line of succession has the HRH Prince/Princess status, I doubt Frederik would reverse that by allowing his daughters and younger son to pass on their HRH Prince/Princess status to their children after they married. They'd keep their status, but their children would be Mr./Miss just like any other untitled person in the country.

The Count of Monpezat title is hereditary in marital male line, according to the press release of 2008 (it is posted earlier in the thread), so the children of Prince Vincent will not be Mr./Miss unless they are born out of wedlock or adopted.

Originally Posted by Muhler

Unless you are the Heir to the throne, titles are inherited through the male line - or bestowed personally by the monarch.

After all the whole system of titles is based on unegality.

Most of the system is "equal" in the sense that you are using the term. If a nobleman has marital sons of different races or religions, for example, those sons will be treated equally as far the devolution of noble titles is concerned.

[polyesco]

"There is a lot to work on. Communication was what was missing. Now we have met and we are on the right track,' says the prince to BT
https://www.bt.dk/royale/prins-joach...l-arbejdes-med

However, Prince Joachim and Princess Marie did not want to answer whether the relationship was still complicated when they were present at the Christmas bazaar in Paris.
"No, no," was the response to the question, where Prince Joachim dismissed BT's journalist.

[FigTree]

Originally Posted by polyesco

"There is a lot to work on. Communication was what was missing. Now we have met and we are on the right track,' says the prince to BT
https://www.bt.dk/royale/prins-joach...l-arbejdes-med

However, Prince Joachim and Princess Marie did not want to answer whether the relationship was still complicated when they were present at the Christmas bazaar in Paris.
"No, no," was the response to the question, where Prince Joachim dismissed BT's journalist.

I think they should have stayed quiet. They did themselves no favours. If they were against it, it was a personal matter.

[Archduchess Zelia]

The family might be working on its internal communication but J&M certainly don't seem to have any intentions to comply with QMII's explicit wish to keep disagreements within the privacy of the family.

I can't help but find it laughable that J&M consider their Christmas holiday destination more private than their family dispute.

QMII's love for J&M and the kids was questioned when she announced she would be removing the children's titles. Personally, I think QMII's unconditional love for her son is very evident in the fact that she has endured countless of his grievances aired to the tabloids (with him knowing full well that it would be completely unbeseeming for her and/or Frederik to respond) – seemingly without ever putting a foot down about him doing so.

[Muhler]

I agree, it would have been wiser not to say anything. - This is however a journalist who has been sympathetic to J&M, both in this matter and other, so...

Anyway, if we look at what he says: That there was a problem with the communication. - It's hard to disagree with that!

That they are working a lot on improving that and that things have improved a lot. - Is reassuring. At least they are talking and trying to mend things.

---

I doubt very much Joachim's children will in any shape or form get their titles back or even get some sort of "compensation." That ship has sailed.
But I think we will see J&M at the New Year Court in full bling and I think we can expect the relationship between the DRF members improve even more, once M&F take over, because it seems like Frederik was not involved in this. (Whether by design or for other reasons is of course an open question.)

[Somebody]

I would hope to see Joachim and Marie participating normally in the NY court as there is no change in their status, so the only reason for them not to show up would be their own disgruntlement. However, they attended the recent celebration for Margrethe, so things seem indeed on the mend.

[Muhler]

Some news from Alexandra's secretary:
https://www.bt.dk/royale/grevinde-al...-ikke-talt-med

BT has talked to Helle von Wildenrath Løvgreen regarding Nikolai and Felix.
Have Felix and Nikolai talked to QMII after the announcement on 28th September?
Helle von Wildenrath Løvgreen: "No. No one has been talking with any of them. Nor have the rest of the family. (I.e. M&F and Benedikte.) Unless it happened within the past hour, because I asked them, right before I went here."

Q: So they have been through a crisis in the DRF since 28th September and at no point has the Queen picked up the phone and called Nikolai or Felix?
Helle von Wildenrath Løvgreen: "No."

How does Nikolai and Felix feel about that?
Helle von Wildenrath Løvgreen: "Nothing has changed. They are still incredibly sad. They don't understand why.
They have always known that the day would come, because when they married their titles would disappear. As Nikolai said, it would thus happen, when he himself wanted to and it would be on a happy day.
Instead they now feel punished and as if they have done something wrong."

---------------

That is very odd.

Haven't both Joachim and Frederik both said that they are talking?

It has to be said that the BT reporter is very pro-Joachim and his family and his angling of these articles have also been sympathetic towards Joachim's children.
However I do not see any reason to doubt this as being true. Otherwise Alexandra and her secretary are out on very thin ice!

That is: No one. QMII, Frederik have discussed this with Nikolai and Felix since the announcement. And if there are any talks behind the scenes Nikolai and Felix are not involved. And I presume nor is Alexandra.

- It's been months now and I still can't figure out what on earth is going on.
Are they talking? Are they trying to reconcile things? Is anyone listening? Are at least Frederik and Joachim talking? Unofficially?
Why are Nikolai and Felix, being adults now, being kept out? Okay, I can to some extent understand why they are not involved in dynastic discussions and decisions, that's for the most senior members of the DRF. But why hasn't their grandmother called them and told them not to feel sorry, that they are not being punished, that this is a dynastic decision she has made as Monarch?

----------

Unfortunately for QMII this is reflected in an opinion poll published today:
https://www.bt.dk/royale/dronningens...andt-danskerne

Here the Danes have been surveyed in January, in July and in December. (The grey drop down boxes in the article.)
The question by YouGov was: How good or bad do you feel about QMII?
The results are:
Godt eller meget godt = Good or very good.
Dårligt eller meget dårligt = Bad or very bad.
Hverken godt eller dårligt = Neither good nor bad.
Ved ikke = Don't know.
- Well, you read the figures.

[polyesco]

I believe Joachim and Marie have confirmed that there have been talks.
https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongelig...e-det-gaar-den

They all agreed, that things will be dealt within the family and no more talking to the press. But of course we have Alexandra's press secretary continuing to talk to the press.

So is there a trust issue? why is the press secretary continuing to talk to the press? does she represent Joachim too?
And for me communication goes both ways. At 23 and 20, both are no longer little boys.

[Blog Real]

What accounts for the drop in the Queen's popularity? Did the Danes not like that the Queen had stripped the titles of Prince Joachim's sons?

I think the whole situation concerning the titles of Prince Joachim's sons was mishandled by the Queen and the royal house.

[lookupdown]

Yes, why is she talking to the press?! Why have a planned interview to air dirt on the family? What are they trying to gain? Since the title change is coming in a few weeks, are they trying to go all out to stop it?! This is pathetic. Especially when, they keep mentioning that they were going to lose their titles when they got married. Also, if I wanted answers from my family, I would call them myself because that is what adults do.