New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Reinosa

It is a good letter. I liked it because she tells her love for Joachim's family, something that was lacking in the previous days.

I'm sure that it won't be a popular comment here, but from the very beginning I thought it would be fair to quit the titles of the two younger Federik and Mary's children. They will never be king or queen of Denmark and will have to live by their own means just like Joachim's children. It would be fair to keep the prince or princess title only for the heir and the next in line. And do it now.

When there was a little interview and Mary was asked about what would be her thoughts if her own children were in the same situations Joachim's children are, she acted like she hadn't understood the question and said something like "she didn't know what things were going to be like in Christian's time". She is sure that her own children are going to be untouched not only during QM's time but during her husband's time too. It didn't sound well to me.

I'm glad Margrethe said to her younger son and her grandchildren she is sorry about what they are feeling because she loves them. I think that if she takes the same decision about her other grandchildren and even her own sister, it would be better for all her family.

However, all the others you are mentioning are not in the same position as Joachim's children: they are children of the (previous/current/future) monarch while Joachim's children are grandchildren of a monarch. Unless she decides to strip Joachim and Marie from their titles, there is no reason to touch the titles of others who are in a similar position as them. And giving in to public sulking by removing titles from those in a very different position just to appease those that ran to the media because they didn't agree with her decision as queen, would be the wrong signal imho.

Also, given that both Benedikte and Joachim still act as Rigsforstander from time to time, they are clearly still actively participating in royal duties for the Danish royal house - unlike Joachim's children who are not expected to take on such important role. And it is not unthinkable that Christian's siblings will also be appointed rigsforstander from time to time, when they are old enough to do so. Of course, Frederik's grandchildren (other than those by his heir Christian) should be treated the same way Joachim's children are treated now - so, no highnesses but just a title of nobility (or no title at all).

Moreover, as I pointed out before, I cannot think of a country in which a distinction is made between the immediate spare and the other siblings (spares of the spare) (other than when some are in the line of succession and others are no longer) - and I wouldn't recommend the Danish royal family starting with it either.

[ppetrica]

Joachim's family's main argument is that the children feel as if loosing their identity, the rank and title are almost as part of their names („The children feel ostracized. They cannot understand why their identity is being taken away from them.“).
But how come Alexandra and Marie didn't feel like loosing their identities when they married Joachim?

Marie was Miss Marie Agathe Odile Cavallier for 32 years, from her birth untill she married Joachim. And from that day on she was HRH princess. Not a HRH princess of her country, but of a country with which she never had any connection until 2 years before when she started dating Joachim. Yet, she didn't have any problems with losing her identity. I don't remember either her or Joachim complaining to the Queen that Marie cannot be given new status and title as this would make her feel like having her identity taken from her.

Same thing with miss Alexandra, she only met Joachim in 1994 and married him in 1995. She was miss Alexandra Christina Manley from birth, so for 31 years. I also don't remember her feeling ostracized and like her identity was being taken from her.
Also, no one complained when the Queen created Count(ess) of Monpezat titles. It was a change too.

So it seems that identity loss works only one way.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

(..)




Well, but if we are to refer to dynasties using the names of every feudal state ever reigned over by their male-line ancestors, then we had better refer to the Bourbons as "Bourbon-La Marche-Vendome-France".

But nobody seems to do that. Why only for the Glücksburgs?




Actually, he created him "Duke of Glücksburg".

Royal Patent of 6 July 1825 concerning the title of Duke of Glücksburg

Yes, and thank you very much for finding that document, it's always so interesting to read the text!
But as you can see on the same page, when Prince Christian was chosen as the Royal heir, he was named the whole bunch of territorial designations. Maybe that's the old way to deal with that (exchanging the "Sonderburg-Beck" for "Sonderburg-Glücksburg" for the father of the prince and himself) or it sounded better than a title only created some yeas before, I don't know.

Anyway, they could have gone for Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck-Glücksburg!!!


While musing about that, I thought of Prince Phillippos from the same family, who thought about which surname to exchange his Greek title for to marry Princess Elizabeth of the UK and thought back to the original title of the first Danish king from that dynasty, Christian I. who was the reigning Count of Oldenburg. Oldenburg translates to "Old Castle" or "Oldcastle" (to be more modern in the spelliung). Now imagine he would have taken that namefor his own surname!!! I doubt ElizabethII would have decreed that "Oldcastle-Windsor" should be the surname for her descendents, it would have make eg. Lady Louise Oldcastle-Windsor into a laughing stock, no?

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by muriel

Talks notwithstanding, I do hope the Queen does not back down on the matter and holds the line.
.

It would be highly embarrassing for the Royal House if there was u-turn!

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

It would be highly embarrassing for the Royal House if there was u-turn!

Can't see that happening.

QMII has verbally and in writing confirmed that her decision stands.

Joachim et all really don't have that much to bargain with. - It may permanently sour their relationship with QMII, but better her than with Frederik I imagine she would think. (She even hinted that.)
And I doubt Joachim etc will find sympathy for reversing the decision.

- It was another matter if she had stripped all her grandchildren of their royal status except of course for Christian.

[Alison H]

The BBC report says that she's apologised, but that could be taken in a number of different ways, presumably as much so in Danish as in the English translation.

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by Alison H

The BBC report says that she's apologised, but that could be taken in a number of different ways, presumably as much so in Danish as in the English translation.

Yes I just saw that
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63120481

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by ppetrica

Joachim's family's main argument is that the children feel as if loosing their identity, the rank and title are almost as part of their names („The children feel ostracized. They cannot understand why their identity is being taken away from them.“).
But how come Alexandra and Marie didn't feel like loosing their identities when they married Joachim?

Marie was Miss Marie Agathe Odile Cavallier for 32 years, from her birth untill she married Joachim. And from that day on she was HRH princess. Not a HRH princess of her country, but of a country with which she never had any connection until 2 years before when she started dating Joachim. Yet, she didn't have any problems with losing her identity. I don't remember either her or Joachim complaining to the Queen that Marie cannot be given new status and title as this would make her feel like having her identity taken from her.

Same thing with miss Alexandra, she only met Joachim in 1994 and married him in 1995. She was miss Alexandra Christina Manley from birth, so for 31 years. I also don't remember her feeling ostracized and like her identity was being taken from her.
Also, no one complained when the Queen created Count(ess) of Monpezat titles. It was a change too.

So it seems that identity loss works only one way.

Well said!!!

Most royals when they WANT to appear humble and down-to-earth will say "oh I'm just Victoria" or "I'm just Sophie".
Joachim and company have gone the exact opposite.

I can't help but think how positively they could've viewed this. They could've said "It will give our children more freedom to pursue their own interests" and/or "It is an honor to bear this title that is so deeply connected to our father and France (especially now that they live in Paris).

[angieuk]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...e-Joachim.html

Allegedly, the Queen gave a public statement as she did not want to be seen as the 'Ice Queen'; allegedly?

Would this have happened had Prince Henrik still been alive? I'm beginning to think the fallout was not worth it!

[theroyalfly]

Originally Posted by Erin9

No matter what- it speaks to the exceedingly poor manner in which this was handled. Given the clear lack of communication- it wouldn’t stun me if there were details no one thought about…..until now.

They knew going to the press will never change her Majesty's decision. But yes, the letter only highlighted the lack of communication of the parties involved. Yes, they were told of the plan. But was it the Queen who reached out to them? That makes me wonder.

Originally Posted by ppetrica

Joachim's family's main argument is that the children feel as if loosing their identity, the rank and title are almost as part of their names („The children feel ostracized. They cannot understand why their identity is being taken away from them.“).
But how come Alexandra and Marie didn't feel like loosing their identities when they married Joachim?

Marie was Miss Marie Agathe Odile Cavallier for 32 years, from her birth untill she married Joachim. And from that day on she was HRH princess. Not a HRH princess of her country, but of a country with which she never had any connection until 2 years before when she started dating Joachim. Yet, she didn't have any problems with losing her identity. I don't remember either her or Joachim complaining to the Queen that Marie cannot be given new status and title as this would make her feel like having her identity taken from her.

Same thing with miss Alexandra, she only met Joachim in 1994 and married him in 1995. She was miss Alexandra Christina Manley from birth, so for 31 years. I also don't remember her feeling ostracized and like her identity was being taken from her.
Also, no one complained when the Queen created Count(ess) of Monpezat titles. It was a change too.

So it seems that identity loss works only one way.

A commoner marrying a royal is different from a royal by birth. So if by chance the boys will speak up and feel offended. I won't see it as whining. They have every right to feel bad about this. Most especially, their name has opened doors for them to support their current lifestyle.

[The Crown]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

It would be highly embarrassing for the Royal House if there was u-turn!

I hope the Queen will stay strong.

I think it was a communication problem. And it wasn't only a fault of the Queen but also Joachims fault. The Queen or her staff told him in may as he admitted himself. Why didn't he talk about it with his mother, his wife, his former wife and his children. I can't understand this. He knew it but he didn't talk about it. So everyone thougt it his ok for him and his family. This wasn't very intelligent of him.

[tihkon2]

Originally Posted by The Crown

I hope the Queen will stay strong.

I think it was a communication problem. And it wasn't only a fault of the Queen but also Joachims fault. The Queen or her staff told him in may as he admitted himself. Why didn't he talk about it with his mother, his wife, his former wife and his children. I can't understand this. He knew it but he didn't talk about it. So everyone thougt it his ok for him and his family. This wasn't very intelligent of him.

He was told something different in May. ie: The children would lose their titles at the age of 25.

None of them are 25.

[Alison H]

I do find that idea very odd. The historical norm has been that people are given titles as they grow up, not have them taken away. If they're going to have their titles taken away, I'm not sure what the point of waiting until they're 25 is.

[The Crown]

I think it makes no sense to give so much titles nowadays. People don't want to pay taxes for lots of Royals with titles, working or not working. If the children of Joachim will not work later for the Royal family then it is easier for them to have no titles. In other cases one can see that titles are used for making money with them.
Royal houses today are fragile constructions. In reality they are not longer needed. To be head of a state by birth is not democratic. All royal houses must be careful. They will be there as long as the people they want them. And I'm sure that due to this they want to give money and titles as little as possible.

@thkon2
It is not important if they lose titles now or when they are 25 years old. The question is why Joachim didn't talk with the family about it. He knew it from May until September. That makes four months to talk about it but he didn't do anything and now he is moaning. It really looks not very intelligent.

[kimebear]

Originally Posted by ppetrica

Joachim's family's main argument is that the children feel as if loosing their identity, the rank and title are almost as part of their names („The children feel ostracized. They cannot understand why their identity is being taken away from them.“).
But how come Alexandra and Marie didn't feel like loosing their identities when they married Joachim?

Alexandra and Marie chose to change their identity when they married Joachim, and Alexandra chose to lose her HH Princess title when she married Martin.

The children did not choose to lose their HH Prince/Princess title.

Originally Posted by ppetrica

Also, no one complained when the Queen created Count(ess) of Monpezat titles. It was a change too.

So it seems that identity loss works only one way.

Because the Monpezat title was a lower subsidiary created out of whole cloth to appease Henrik who was whining about not being King.

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by The Crown

I hope the Queen will stay strong.

I think it was a communication problem. And it wasn't only a fault of the Queen but also Joachims fault. The Queen or her staff told him in may as he admitted himself. Why didn't he talk about it with his mother, his wife, his former wife and his children. I can't understand this. He knew it but he didn't talk about it. So everyone thougt it his ok for him and his family. This wasn't very intelligent of him.

Its all turned so messy and ugly and making the news all around the world

Queen Says Sorry!
https://www.euronews.com/2022/10/03/...-grandchildren

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/10/04/e...cli/index.html

https://news.sky.com/story/queen-of-...itles-12711688

[Prinsara]

Originally Posted by The Crown

I think it makes no sense to give so much titles nowadays. People don't want to pay taxes for lots of Royals with titles, working or not working. If the children of Joachim will not work later for the Royal family then it is easier for them to have no titles. In other cases one can see that titles are used for making money with them.
Royal houses today are fragile constructions. In reality they are not longer needed. To be head of a state by birth is not democratic. All royal houses must be careful. They will be there as long as the people they want them. And I'm sure that due to this they want to give money and titles as little as possible.

@thkon2
It is not important if they lose titles now or when they are 25 years old. The question is why Joachim didn't talk with the family about it. He knew it from May until September. That makes four months to talk about it but he didn't do anything and now he is moaning. It really looks not very intelligent.

There was absolutely no call in Denmark to take the titles from Joachim's family. It became a bigger issue after Margrethe did it thoughtlessly and ended up needing to publicly apologize for creating such a lack of goodwill. Which really looks not very intelligent.

[ladongas]

Originally Posted by ppetrica

Joachim's family's main argument is that the children feel as if loosing their identity, the rank and title are almost as part of their names („The children feel ostracized. They cannot understand why their identity is being taken away from them.“).
But how come Alexandra and Marie didn't feel like loosing their identities when they married Joachim?

Marie was Miss Marie Agathe Odile Cavallier for 32 years, from her birth untill she married Joachim. And from that day on she was HRH princess. Not a HRH princess of her country, but of a country with which she never had any connection until 2 years before when she started dating Joachim. Yet, she didn't have any problems with losing her identity. I don't remember either her or Joachim complaining to the Queen that Marie cannot be given new status and title as this would make her feel like having her identity taken from her.

Same thing with miss Alexandra, she only met Joachim in 1994 and married him in 1995. She was miss Alexandra Christina Manley from birth, so for 31 years. I also don't remember her feeling ostracized and like her identity was being taken from her.
Also, no one complained when the Queen created Count(ess) of Monpezat titles. It was a change too.

So it seems that identity loss works only one way.

Sorry, this is a false equivalency.

[Archduchess Zelia]

QMII didn't "publicly apologise". She said she feels sorry that Joachim and his family feel as affected by her decision as they do.

Originally Posted by tihkon2

He was told something different in May. ie: The children would lose their titles at the age of 25.

None of them are 25.

No, that was the proposal in May. A proposal Joachim himself has said he asked for time to think over. Though he has failed to elaborate on whether or not he ever returned his feedback.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

There was absolutely no call in Denmark to take the titles from Joachim's family. It became a bigger issue after Margrethe did it thoughtlessly and ended up needing to publicly apologize for creating such a lack of goodwill. Which really looks not very intelligent.

I don't think we can categorically say that. There was no public outcry apparently to take the titles from Joachim's children, but we don't know to what extent the Danish government was involved in this decision, or even if the proposal came from the government itself.

The truth is that there has been a shift of opinion in Europe when it comes to titles of members of the Royal Family. In the past, a title merely indicated a certain degree of kinship to the monarch (or a former monarch) and had no relation whatsoever with "working" status. Although that is still how the rules on titles are framed in most monarchies, in practice, the new consensus seems to be that people who are not expected to have an official role representing the State or the Royal House should not be titled.

It is debatable if that "new consensus" is justified or not and, of course, even more controversial when any change in the rules also affects living people, especially living adults. But, in any case, Queen Margrethe II's decision seems to be in line with the general principle about who should or should not be titled in a contemporary Royal Family. For some reason, which is not clear yet, she felt she had to make that decision sooner rather than later, and that the decision should apply to the current generation and not only future ones, which has a precedent in Denmark based on the previous changes, for example, to the succession law.

I agree, however, that not having the family onboard before announcing the decision was a PR mistake. But I also think that Joachim's and Alexandra's reactions in particular were disproportionate and revealed a sense of entitlement for their sons. Marie's reaction was also disproportionate, but, in her case, she seemed genuinely concerned about potential psychological damage to her young children.