New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022

[polyesco]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

Frederik knew this was going down. If Nikolai knew for 5 or 6 days as of yesterday, Fred knew. Before he left. So he chose to be the guy on the Riviera with his head buried at sea, instead.

I am only impressed with him for self-preservation. Which also looks an awful lot like self-serving.

If he cancelled and stayed in Denmark, we still wouldn't see him. He did not have any official events this week. He wasn't going to release any official statements. The Queen already did.
Alexandra, with Joachim and Marie's approval, escalated the situation quickly by having her spokesperson speak 3 minutes later.
Again, we only heard from Mary and Benedikte today because they had official events today, if not we would not have heard them or seen them.

For all we know he privately might not agree with this and is on the phone with his brother for hours. But publicly, the Queen has spoken.

[Izzie]

Originally Posted by Muhler

That is what I would advise him to do. Go see Joachim.
See if they can mend things - just somewhat. Or at least listen sympathetically to Joachim. Smooth things out, even if he personally believes Joachim is at fault here.
But Frederik hasn't got long this time around. He has to be back in DK by Tuesday and the opening of the Parliament.

It's in the (PR) interest of the DRF not to push Joachim way out in the cold. - And I would miss them. I like to follow J&M and it would be a pity if we only saw them at major family events - if even that... And at the occasional interview.
Alexandra is secondary in this context. If she continues to complain, the public sentiment will turn against her. - She is after all "only" furious and she got a good deal from the DRF when she divorced Joachim. Little reason for her to complain too loudly.
While Joachim in contrast appeared deeply sad and hurt. And he is QMII's son. I think the public sympathy for him will last a little longer.

Unfortunately the DRF has a habit of trying to keep a lid on things by not saying anything. - Well, it sure didn't work with Herlufsholm!
It won't work this time either, because at some point someone will ask him about this mess.

And also, I am not sure Frederik (or maybe anyone really) might have known the press release would drop 9/28 tbh. Maybe they knew this was in the works but not that the news would drop like a thud on 9/28. Something is fuzzy with the timing still.

This is me just speculating - I think Frederik was called home from NYC NOT due to COVID having greeted the QMII again, but because this was brewing and he was summoned back to try to be a mediator, buffer, punching bag..whatever.
9/23 - The Gov't dinner AND given the date the press release dropped of 9/28 the day Joachim (kids?) were informed of decision. Might be reason by J&M did not attend the dinner. It could very well be that no indication was given at that time what date the announcement would be made and hence the surprise when it suddenly dropped on 9/28.

Then all of a sudden (while Frederik HAPPENS to be abroad) - The same as when Joachim was allegedly informed (BY STAFFF) the press release drops and boom!

Again, just me speculating (as we all are) - given that my gut tells me there is something more going on bts and I am not just talking about family drama - because I keep going back to how happy both sons looks surprising their mom at the military event and how touched she looked. They were all at the jubilee events, including Alexandra. I mean Joachim literally just served as rigforstander on 9/26 and 9/27!! And literally the NEXT day this press release drops? Sorry, something is off here.

And also, why the specific date of 1/1/23? Why not immediately? What is the point of dragging this out for another 3 months? It is like getting a 90 day eviction notice!!

Also, why the sudden urgency now? Seriously....why was it imperative to pull this plug now.

Sorry..something is just not reconciling.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Muhler

In fact they lose more than their titles.

They also lose a few privileges as well.
Not being "full" royals, they longer enjoy immunity. (It's up to the monarch what to do with members of the DRF if they are caught speeding or killing their cook.)
The diplomatic passport is probably gone as well. - So no longer walking past the queues at the airport. And that also means they can't use their diplomatic immunity abroad either, if say speeding.
More or less automatic upgrades to first class is probably gone as well.
And as for invitations to major galas, well, that remains to be seen.
Countess Alexandra is automatically invited to the New Year Courts (Day two IIRC) due to her having the Order of the Elephant. (Which means she belongs in the category Rangklasse 1 = Those with the highest titles and highest orders.)
Their off hand credit assessment is no doubt also about to change, when buying or lending something in the future. No longer the impressive title of prince/ss - no longer the guarantee of the DRF in their backs.

So welcome in the ranks of commoners.

All of this sounds like a very good reason to make this move. There is no reason why they should enjoy all these perks. They will remain very advantaged in being well-known members of the royal family with an enormous network that they will benefit from all of their lives, so, slightly more normal proportions seem to be a good thing.

[Susan D]

I think they ought to have invented Danish titles such as Count or maybe Baron.

[Prinsara]

Originally Posted by polyesco

If he cancelled and stayed in Denmark, we still wouldn't see him. He did not have any official events this week. He wasn't going to release any official statements. The Queen already did.
Alexandra, with Joachim and Marie's approval, escalated the situation quickly by having her spokesperson speak 3 minutes later.
Again, we only heard from Mary and Benedikte today because they had official events today, if not we would not have heard them or seen them.

For all we know he privately might not agree with this and is on the phone with his brother for hours. But publicly, the Queen has spoken.

Do you really believe if the Crown Prince was in Denmark the past couple of days the media wouldn't have found him, somehow?

It's either a massive series of coincidences Frederik is as far from home as he is, doing what he's doing, while all this is happening, or Occam's Razor that's exactly the way the future king wanted it to be.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Susan D

I think they ought to have invented Danish titles such as Count or maybe Baron.

Why should additional titles be invented (count of Rosenborg would be the way to go in that case)? These children already have their grandfather's title of count of Monpezat (since 2008, so they will start using a name they've had for close to 15 years - or since birth), which is part of the Danish nobility - and which was of great importance to their grandfather as it acknowledged his position in the family.

[polyesco]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

Do you really believe if the Crown Prince was in Denmark the past couple of days the media wouldn't have found him, somehow?
.

Yes.
The statement came out on Wednesday. Did they find Joachim on Wednesday? Mary? Benedikte? no. Only the Queen because she had an official event.
They only found Mary and Benedikte today when they had their events.

Frederik wasnt go to release a statement or call a press conference for the media.

[Izzie]

Originally Posted by polyesco

Yes.
The statement came out on Wednesday. Did they find Joachim on Wednesday? Mary? Benedikte? no. Only the Queen because she had an official event.
They only found Mary and Benedikte today when they had their events.

Frederik wasnt go to release a statement or call a press conference for the media.

I will say in all fairness that the St. Tropez Les Voiles race dates did not just pop up a couple of days ago. These dates will have been set most likely since last year and the teams competing would have been registered months ago. So he didn't run and hide...his participation in this race was set a long time ago.

[Prinsara]

Originally Posted by Izzie

I will say in all fairness that the St. Tropez Les Voiles race dates did not just pop up a couple of days ago. These dates will have been set most likely since last year and the teams competing would have been registered months ago. So he didn't run and hide...his participation in this race was set a long time ago.

And he could have pulled out. Teams train alternates. What if someone broke an ankle or got COVID, not just had a national family crisis? Not to mention, it's not the Olympics or anything for Denmark.

Instead the illustration of his priorities are not that flattering.

[samitude]

I don't think any monarchy should be slimmed down. All they have to do is publish an official list saying these are the royals being paid. People can read it and see for themselves that their money isn't being spent on non-working royals. Even with only a count title if they do something shameful it's still going to reflect on the monarchy because of whose grandchild they are. Removing a prince title isn't going to change bad behavior.



By the way. What would happen if Athena said that she wanted to be a working royal and devote her life to the crown. Would they allow her to become one?

[polyesco]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

...
Instead the illustration of his priorities are not that flattering.

His priority as heir and son is to publically support the Queen. Whether abroad or sitting at home. His priority is not to wash the dirty laundry in public. With no official events since Wednesday we would not have seen him and he would not be calling in a press conference.
No one in the DRF have issued statements. That would just undermine the Queen. If Mary and Benedikte didn't have events today there would be no statements from either.

For Joachim to allow his ex-wife to speak on his behalf was just poor form. He knew since May, did he drag his feet? Did he not inform his kids until September?

[KristehH]

Hi Everyone,

I'm a longtime reader, but this is my first post. I am also in the minority in that I think this was a poor decision. It's the modern trend to streamline monarchies, and I understand that, but that trend seems to be linked to a public perception that people with royal titles receive taxpayer money. It seems that the Danish people are aware that Joachim's children don't receive such funds and that they will never be working royals. It also seems that there was no great outrage over the kids' titles, so taking them away at this point seems unnecessarily harsh.

If the concern is limiting titles for future generations, QM could have just made a statement saying 'From this time forth, only these certain people will inherit Prince/Princess titles (Presumably this would be children of the monarch, and grandchildren in the direct line of succession?).' This would accomplish the streamlining, but not strip titles away from people who have already had them for years.

And yes, I agree completely that Joachim's children are still very privileged, and probably all of us have much more important things to worry about. But obviously, we all are interested in and enjoy reading about Royals and their lives.

It boils down to the fact that I have a hard time with taking away titles retroactively, especially from people who are old enough to understand and have done nothing wrong. Because it looks and feels punitive, even if done with the best intentions, imo. Especially when there was another way of achieving the goal.

Definitely, it seems like a compromise could have been reached, something similar to how the Swedish Royal Family handled the matter, as so many of you have already said.

If the concern is truly that Joachim's children would have more freedom in life without the titles, shouldn't QM have talked with them, especially Nikolai and Felix as they're already young adults, about how the titles could limit their future plans and perhaps take their wishes into account? From what has been said, it seems like they would prefer to keep their royal titles even if it causes limitations.

And as for saying that titles don't really matter and are not important...well, ideally, yes. But many people who do have titles want to keep them. I can understand that after having had one for years, it could be part of one's identity. And even with all the responsibilities and sacrifices, most monarchs seem to want to keep their titles / positions, and pass them on.

As for HOW this was handled, it's absolutely appalling. I've always liked Queen Margrethe, but I've lost a lot of respect for her. Even if she was determined to go ahead with stripping the titles, I can't imagine why she would not speak with her grandchildren personally to explain. It's mind-boggling to me.

[ronald biver]

If the Danish queen talk about the titles years ago with her late husband prince Henrik, why were prince Frederik & prince Joachim not told at that time? And suddenly years later in 2022 it became official that the children of prince Joachim have no princely titles, but will have nobility titles, to me that is very cruel for the children, that is my thoughts & my opinion.

[Erin9]

Originally Posted by KristehH

Hi Everyone,



I'm a longtime reader, but this is my first post. I am also in the minority in that I think this was a poor decision. It's the modern trend to streamline monarchies, and I understand that, but that trend seems to be linked to a public perception that people with royal titles receive taxpayer money. It seems that the Danish people are aware that Joachim's children don't receive such funds and that they will never be working royals. It also seems that there was no great outrage over the kids' titles, so taking them away at this point seems unnecessarily harsh.



If the concern is limiting titles for future generations, QM could have just made a statement saying 'From this time forth, only these certain people will inherit Prince/Princess titles (Presumably this would be children of the monarch, and grandchildren in the direct line of succession?).' This would accomplish the streamlining, but not strip titles away from people who have already had them for years.



And yes, I agree completely that Joachim's children are still very privileged, and probably all of us have much more important things to worry about. But obviously, we all are interested in and enjoy reading about Royals and their lives.



It boils down to the fact that I have a hard time with taking away titles retroactively, especially from people who are old enough to understand and have done nothing wrong. Because it looks and feels punitive, even if done with the best intentions, imo. Especially when there was another way of achieving the goal.



Definitely, it seems like a compromise could have been reached, something similar to how the Swedish Royal Family handled the matter, as so many of you have already said.



If the concern is truly that Joachim's children would have more freedom in life without the titles, shouldn't QM have talked with them, especially Nikolai and Felix as they're already young adults, about how the titles could limit their future plans and perhaps take their wishes into account? From what has been said, it seems like they would prefer to keep their royal titles even if it causes limitations.



And as for saying that titles don't really matter and are not important...well, ideally, yes. But many people who do have titles want to keep them. I can understand that after having had one for years, it could be part of one's identity. And even with all the responsibilities and sacrifices, most monarchs seem to want to keep their titles / positions, and pass them on.



As for HOW this was handled, it's absolutely appalling. I've always liked Queen Margrethe, but I've lost a lot of respect for her. Even if she was determined to go ahead with stripping the titles, I can't imagine why she would not speak with her grandchildren personally to explain. It's mind-boggling to me.

First- welcome!

I’m with you in the minority. I get the need to streamline, but there is a way to do it. I’m not a fan of retroactive striping personally, unless we are talking about very young children and/or you strike a Swedish style compromise . Just go with- and going forward- this is the plan. And for goodness sake: communicate properly!!!

I understand that it seems to be an optical issue to get rid of titles, but at the rate we’re going “Royal Family” isn’t going to be an accurate term to describe what’s left.

I also think it’s rather absurd that it seems title stripping is at least partially linked to the perception that anyone HRH or HH is getting paid. It costs literally nothing in this case. So why take titles from adults? If you truly think it’s a career hindrance- then discuss that.

There was a real lack of emotional intelligence here imo.

[Izzie]

Originally Posted by Erin9

First- welcome!

I’m with you in the minority. I get the need to streamline, but there is a way to do it. I’m not a fan of retroactive striping personally, unless we are talking about very young children and/or you strike a Swedish style compromise . Just go with- and going forward- this is the plan. And for goodness sake: communicate properly!!!

I understand that it seems to be an optical issue to get rid of titles, but at the rate we’re going “Royal Family” isn’t going to be an accurate term to describe what’s left.

I also think it’s rather absurd that it seems title stripping is at least partially linked to the perception that anyone HRH or HH is getting paid. It costs literally nothing. So why take titles from adults? If you truly think it’s a career hindrance- then discuss that.

There was a real lack of emotional intelligence here imo.

Add me to the list of people in the minority. And I have alot of side eyeing questions tbh. Some things do not make any sense.

And yes, the handling was appalling to say the least. I will add insensitive and tone deaf while I am at it.

[Moran]

Count me in the minority as well. We're all here mostly because of the royals, right? Not because of this and that baron, count and so on. In a way, the very existence of this forum is a proof of the enduring allure of monarchy. Royalty.

I do understand the optics. I do. But taking away the titles of people who have had them since birth and have done nothing wrong doesn't sit well with me. Royal family? Or royal couple, in a few years? Business does tend to cut into the allure of royalty and monarchy. Do it for the future generations. Or do a compromise, like they did in Norway and Sweden - leave something that is definitely royal. But not like this - cut your losses and out of royalty they are. Or if you feel like you do, discuss it with the adults involved. Did QMII discuss it with her adult grandsons? You know, the ones she claimed to do it for? No, as far as I can see.

When you do something so thorough, make sure to get everyone on board.

When the push comes to shove, titles and styles are at HM's disposal to do as she pleased with them. But that doesn't relieve her of her responsibility to act as respectfully as possible to everyone.

She didn't bother calling personally? What, does she really expect personal calls now?

[Prinsara]

I don't think we actually are a minority.

Certainly not off this board.

I'm still waiting for confirmation that according to comments on the official social media announcements, most Danish sympathy (those who care at all, at least) is with Joachim and his family, mostly because this was carried out in an atrocious fashion.

As royalwatchers here, we know all about slimming down monarchies. And this is literally what not to do.

Even people who don't follow royals this closely get it.

[KristehH]

Thanks for the welcome, Erin9!

Yes, you (and I think other posters too) have touched on another aspect of the 'streamlining' trend that troubles me--that royal titles are becoming linked to a job rather than just being part of a royal family.

Traditionally, being a Prince/Princess was something a person had by being born into, or marrying into, a royal family. Now it seems like it's becoming linked to being a working royal. I can't help but feel like this is a mistake. If having a royal title is only a job, then what makes it particularly special? Why not just elect your monarch / prince / princess?

Don't get me wrong. Even though I am American, I see a great value to having a non-elected, apolitical head of state, a person who can really unify and represent the people of a country. At the same time, I certainly understand that the ordinary citizens don't want their hard-earned money going to support luxurious lifestyles of a large, extended royal family.

But I think this is where the palace just needs to communicate very clearly that having a title does not mean that person is receiving taxpayer funding, that there is a difference between having a title and being a working royal. And I think some of you have mentioned this as well.

I think the best way is if titles need to be limited, then have it be going forward without stripping titles away from existing people, and to be very clear and transparent about who receives money and how it is being spent.

[CrownPrincessJava]

Originally Posted by Muhler

In fact they lose more than their titles.

They also lose a few privileges as well.
Not being "full" royals, they longer enjoy immunity. (It's up to the monarch what to do with members of the DRF if they are caught speeding or killing their cook.)
The diplomatic passport is probably gone as well. - So no longer walking past the queues at the airport. And that also means they can't use their diplomatic immunity abroad either, if say speeding.
More or less automatic upgrades to first class is probably gone as well.
And as for invitations to major galas, well, that remains to be seen.
Countess Alexandra is automatically invited to the New Year Courts (Day two IIRC) due to her having the Order of the Elephant. (Which means she belongs in the category Rangklasse 1 = Those with the highest titles and highest orders.)
Their off hand credit assessment is no doubt also about to change, when buying or lending something in the future. No longer the impressive title of prince/ss - no longer the guarantee of the DRF in their backs.

So welcome in the ranks of commoners.

And I think the reason for QMII to do this as harshly and quickly as she did is there may have been this very scenario. I do not think the Danish public would appreciate either Nikolai or Felix abusing such privileges just because they are HH Prince of Denmark AND non-working royals. The prime example are HRH Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie. Although they have never been caught abusing privileges, the slack and abuse they receive is disgusting

But, and this is a big but, the manner QMII did it was poor form.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by KristehH

Hi Everyone,

I'm a longtime reader, but this is my first post...

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for joining in to share your opinion on this thread as your first entry!