New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022

[Kataryn]

For me, the most important point is that probably noone in Denmark cares much if the family of their queen are prince/ess or count/ess or even just Mr./Ms./Miss. They have no surbame - invent one like Monpezat after their grandfather.



But - the only reason why these people are "special" is because they are descended from the queen, are her grandchildren. The Danes even have different words for paternal and maternal grandmothers, so important is this family relation there (obviously for historical reasons?) Now the "farmor" takes away the clear sign that her grandchildren are related to her (prince/ess of Denmark) and put them back to their farfar, paternal grandfather who was the original "Count of Monpezat".


Yes, these young people will still have a comital title and not be part of the "normal" Danish population. They even will have styles ("Your excellencies"!) which sound somehow ridiculous for an 13 yo ex-prince and his even younger sister. These should be styles to be earned not inherited. While prince/ess are definately title and styles you only inherit when you are related to the monarch.


There are so many other possibilities this could have been handled. Asking the prince/ess once they are adults (at 18? too early? 21? Or 25?) if they want to keep the title knowing about the restrictions or move on more freely as count/ess? let them know that the titles would be exchanged on marriage/reaching a certain age so they could do something like using a different name before that happens? (Give them time to marry a (German?) prince so they could use that title?)



This way it is as if the queen did not only strip her grandchildren of their titles but threw them from her family.



And if a queen (or any other monarch) does not care for the people related to her/them by (male-line) blood and send them out into the desert (yes, with money, tents, servants, whatever...) who should care for that family at all? A socialdemocrat or maybe communist government? LOL!

[Tatiana Maria]

For those asking why Prince Joachim's children would have lost their royal titles on marriage (if Alexandra's understanding is correct and not the result of another failure in family communication):


Per the Act of Succession, a person who marries without the formal approval of the monarch loses their right to the crown, and their descendants are also barred from the throne. Traditionally, members of the family who lost the right to the throne concurrently lost their royal titles and rank (with rare exceptions in special circumstances), as well as their membership of the Royal House and its associated privileges.

Until the marriage of Joachim and Alexandra in 1995, approval was not given for marriages to commoners. Queen Margrethe II's father, King Frederik IX, declined to approve the marriages of his nephews Prince Ingolf and Prince Christian to commoner women. Thus, they exited the line of succession upon marriage, thereby losing their royal titles. Their sister Princess Elisabeth has stated that the same would have happened to her if she had married her commoner partner during the reign of Queen Margrethe II.

As with Nikolai and Felix, Elisabeth, Ingolf and Christian were children of a younger son of a king.

Again: The official basis for the loss of Ingolf and Christian's royal status (and what would have been Elisabeth's loss of royal status had she married) was the commoner status of their partner. From that perspective, Queen Margrethe permitting her sons to marry commoners and remain princes could be perceived as nullifying the old traditions when it comes to male princes. (For Elisabeth, however, Queen Margrethe II always maintained that if she married her commoner partner, she could not remain royal.)

But from what I have gathered from Danish posters, it seems to be the general belief in Denmark that King Frederik IX, in contrast to his father or his Swedish colleagues, had no ideological objection to princes marrying commoners, and it merely served as a convenient pretext to keep the Royal House slim. And from that perspective, removing Joachim's children from the Royal House on marriage would be consistent with the precedent of Elisabeth, Ingolf and Christian.

[polyesco]

I think the decision was proposed in May but this has been a long time coming. Years. I can't help but think of Nikolai and Felix's decisions to quit the military so quickly. Okay their choice, they should live life like they see fit. But also the Queen has the right to make decisions for the future of the monarchy.

"Prince Joachim in a 2019 Interview commenting on his desire that his son be allowed to become “as normal a Danish citizen as possible,” after Nikolai was criticized from dropping out of military training."
https://twitter.com/Gertsroyals/stat...5Es1_&ref_url=

So they want to be normal citizens, not be with the "constraints" of being princes, but then their entire identities are tied to being Princes?

[HRHHermione]

It really is a shame how the family has chosen to react to this publicly. Sadly, the more temper they show in public about it, the better a decision it looks.

[Prinsara]

The thing I don't understand about Daisy: She may not be the warmest, closest mother, but she had very close, loving parents, and she and her sisters are still hanging out together, by choice. She knows very well what family means. I think she didn't realize how badly this would blow up, as shown by her hesitant half-response about the grandkids being unhappy.

I think she didn't realize, but I'm not sure she did realize how hurtful this level of poor delivery gets. So either she didn't really believe "it was better for them (for the sake of the state)" or she did genuinely believe it was better for them. I'm not sure which one's worse. This is not about her mental state, more like living in an echo chamber.

[Iolanthe]

Thank you, Tatiana Maria. That makes a lot of sense. If it was indeed the family's understanding that Joachim's children would have lost their titles on marriage, I see no real pracitcal need to take them away now. Alexandra is right (while also a bit dramatic - but I understand that it's an emotional subject terribly communicated by the queen): why not just wait? The problem would have solved itself.

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

For those asking why Prince Joachim's children would have lost their royal titles on marriage (if Alexandra's understanding is correct and not the result of another failure in family communication):


Per the Act of Succession, a person who marries without the formal approval of the monarch loses their right to the crown, and their descendants are also barred from the throne. Traditionally, members of the family who lost the right to the throne concurrently lost their royal titles and rank, as well as their membership of the Royal House and its associated privileges.

Until the marriage of Joachim and Alexandra in 1995, approval was not given for marriages to commoners. Queen Margrethe II's father, King Frederik IX, declined to approve the marriages of his nephews Prince Ingolf and Prince Christian to commoner women. Thus, they exited the line of succession upon marriage, thereby losing their royal titles. Their sister Princess Elisabeth has stated that the same would have happened to her if she had married her commoner partner during the reign of Margrethe II.

As with Nikolai and Felix, Elisabeth, Ingolf and Christian were sons of a younger son of a king.

Again: The official basis for the loss of Ingolf and Christian's royal status (and what would have been Elisabeth's loss of royal status had she married) was the commoner status of their partner. From that perspective, Queen Margrethe permitting her sons to marry commoners and remain princes could be perceived as nullifying the old traditions when it comes to male princes. (For Elisabeth, however, Queen Margrethe II always maintained that if she married her commoner partner, she could not remain royal.)

But from what I have gathered from Danish posters, it seems to be the general belief in Denmark that King Frederik IX, in contrast to his father or his Swedish colleagues, had no ideological objection to princes marrying commoners, and it merely served as a convenient pretext to keep the Royal House slim. And from that perspective, removing Joachim's children from the Royal House on marriage would be consistent with the precedent of Elisabeth, Ingolf and Christian.

[ReeceT21]

Hmm. A complicated situation. I was surprised to see it when I woke up yesterday. I am in the camp that it is the right thing to do and in line with other royal houses, but there seems to have been a terrible lack of communication amongst the family that is causing rifts and bad PR. A coordinated roll-out of statements like the Sweden decision would certainly have been better.

I was curious about the wording of CG's announcement in 2019 but it is no longer on the court website. I don't think it would have hurt QMII to make some sort of personal reference of affection towards her grandchildren and stated that they would still be beloved members of the Royal Family. But alas it was all business.

I cannot really blame Joachim and Nikolai for what they've said. They seem to be genuinely rather hurt and it seems QMII has had very little personal contact with them about this matter. I certainly don't think they "owe" the Queen or the Court silence or should feel badly for speaking out about her actions if she hasn't bothered to explain it to them herself.

I believe the career implications are pretty clear and the strongest argument for these sorts of "royal demotions" as well as the public perception of a large royal house. As with discussions on British titles I think the idea that someone not holding a greater title (or one at all) affords them greater privacy is silly. Outside of main-line royals privacy seems largely up to personal choices. "Lady" Sarah Chatto has a much more private life than "Mrs." Zara Tindall. The late "Princess" Elizabeth had a more private life than "Countess" Alexandra. This move certainly doesn't free them from royal attention.

If Athena grows up wanting a quiet life out of the spotlight she could live quietly in France and it won't matter if she's a Princess or Countess.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Andrew 24

They are not Glucksburgs or Oldenburgs that is the name of dynasty. Since 1st of Jan the will be know as Nikolai or Felix de Montpezant.

They were never Glücksburgs or Oldenburgs. They are patrilineally members of the Monpezat family, as are also Frederik and his children. The Glücksburg dynasty will end in Denmark with Margrethe II, just as the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha/Wettin dynasty just ended in the UK with Elizabeth II.



It is just that, like in other countries, the princes and princesses with the style of Royal Highness do not use a family name and bear instead a territorial designation such as "to Denmark, "of Belgium", etc.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by polyesco

I think the decision was proposed in May but this has been a long time coming. Years. I can't help but think of Nikolai and Felix's decisions to quit the military so quickly. Okay their choice, they should live life like they see fit. But also the Queen has the right to make decisions for the future of the monarchy.

"Prince Joachim in a 2019 Interview commenting on his desire that his son be allowed to become “as normal a Danish citizen as possible,” after Nikolai was criticized from dropping out of military training."
https://twitter.com/Gertsroyals/stat...5Es1_&ref_url=

So they want to be normal citizens, not be with the "constraints" of being princes, but then their entire identities are tied to being Princes?

Well, we have seen examples of double standards before:

I wanna be just like everybody else. Having a normal life - of course with the perks of being a royal, but not doing work as a royal, unless it suits me. Can we arrange that?
Hey! You are taking my title away from me! That ain't fair. I don't wanna be that normal.

That's how it comes across IMO. And that's how it's going to be perceived by everyone who doesn't know the details in forums like this.
Which is why I would like to gag Joachim, Alexandra etc. They are doing themselves no favors.

Perhaps QMII is simply more ruthless than QEII was?

Whatever. Goodnight.

[tommy100]

Yes I wondered that, if they had been led to believe the titles would go upon marriage in some ways it seems more unusual to take them away now...it wouldn't have been an issue in the future.

I guess a few things surprise me in all this - why now being one? They've just, finally, had the Jubilee celebrations and I imagine the Queen was likely seeing a popularity bounce as most sovereigns do after such events. Joachim and his family do seem largely forgotten about with them living in France and doing very few duties so there wasn't really a problem with them being seen everywhere all the time. It seems to simply have created an issue where none really existed all to be able to suddenly announce it now.

Again, I can't get over the shock of how daisy has managed this - if Joachim was so resistant in May was forcing the issue really the answer? Again, there doesn't seem to be a pressing issue to change a situation that has been the same for 20 odd years so why try and rush it? Daisy should have spoken to Joachim personally several times over and for longer before resorting to simply announcing it like this.

I also can't get over how far apart Joachim and the Queen have become, from being seen as the "vital back up couple" to single Fred, being seen as The Queen's favourite (I always felt) to being "sent" to France to be out the way, to stop doing so many duties, to now having the titles of his children taken away.

The lack of any personal family affection in the announcement is very striking, it doesn't help with a feeling that this was rather ruthless.

How ironic that in a bid to avoid a "British Royal Family situation" in the future they have potentially created one of their own right now.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

They were never Glücksburgs or Oldenburgs. They are patrilineally members of the Monpezat family, as are also Frederik and his children. The Glücksburg dynasty will end in Denmark with Margrethe II, just as the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha/Wettin dynasty just ended in the UK with Elizabeth II.

It is just that, like in other countries, the princes and princesses with the style of Royal Highness do not use a family name and bear instead a territorial designation such as "to Denmark, "of Belgium", etc.

Their membership of their paternal family does not cancel out their membership of their maternal family. Most people are capable of belonging to both of their parents' families. In the case of Margrethe and Henrik's descendants their maternal lineage has shaped their lives and identities far more than their paternal one.

The Crown Prince uses an inescutcheon of Oldenburg in his personal arms, just as his mother does, and his now defunct personal website used to state that he would reign as a monarch of the house of Glücksborg.

I am aware that some "traditionalists" are opposed to maternal transmission of house names and membership (although in fact European history includes many examples of female rulers being considered the heads of their families and passing on names accordingly), but it is not their choice to make.

Time will tell what happens when Queen Margrethe II's reign ends.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

For me, the most important point is that probably noone in Denmark cares much if the family of their queen are prince/ess or count/ess or even just Mr./Ms./Miss. They have no surbame - invent one like Monpezat after their grandfather.



But - the only reason why these people are "special" is because they are descended from the queen, are her grandchildren. The Danes even have different words for paternal and maternal grandmothers, so important is this family relation there (obviously for historical reasons?) Now the "farmor" takes away the clear sign that her grandchildren are related to her (prince/ess of Denmark) and put them back to their farfar, paternal grandfather who was the original "Count of Monpezat".

So, what do you propose? That all descendants in male line of a Sovereign be princes/princesses in perpetuity? I know that is the German custom (still applied for example to the "Princes of Greece and Denmark" descending from Christian IX), but it was not the custom observed in many other parts of Europe and would be hard to argue in favor of it in extant monarchies today.



We now have 4 out of 7 kingdoms in Europe (Spain, Norway, the Netherlands, and Denmark) that have removed Prince/Princess (or equivalent like Infante/Infanta) as a prefix for grandchildren of the monarch who are not children of the heir. In Norway, persons who are in that class currently bear no title or style whatsoever; in Spain, they are untitled Grandees with the style of HE; in the Netherlands, they are Count/Countess; and, in Denmark, they are now HE Count/Countess. It looks like Denmark is the only of the aforementioned countries where that decision is being met with controversy, probably because it affected adult persons who used HH Prince for part of their lives, as opposed to applying from birth as in the other countries.


Ideally, I agree it should have been done to Joachim's and Frederik's grandchildren only, but then such decision would realistically be left to the next reign and I think Margrethe II wanted to do it while she is still alive to set a precedent for Frederik's reign.

[kimebear]

I'm not quite sure why Joachim and his family should be expected to take this on the chin without making their own feelings on the matter known.

His children do not receive public money directly, so what was the harm in allowing them to retain the titles that were bestowed on them at birth? Especially since they have understood that the same titles would be lost upon their marriages anyway?

When Nikolai made the comment about his passport, it sounded more like a young man wondering why he was losing his birth name and not the griping of a spoiled child.

After all, he and Felix have done nothing that I am aware of that would warrant the loss of their titles. They have not embarrassed the DRF in any way. They model. It's not like they do porn.

If this was a genuine measure on the part of the Queen to secure the monarchy, would it not have been better to strip any future descendants of Vincent's as well? As we may assume that Isabella's and Josephine's children will not be titled to begin with.

It all seems very cold and petty to me, and I don't believe that Joachim and his family should have to take pains to be quiet and discrete about a very public slight to them. Why must they respect the monarchy that clearly does not value them as members?

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by tihkon2

You keep ignoring the part where they seem to be more upset by the truly rude and callous way it was handled. She even couldn't talk to her son or grandchildren personally. How nice......

Prince Joachim himself acknowledged that he was aware of the concept a few months ago. The outlines of the new slimlined monarchy were drafted years ago anyway when it was decided that younger children of the King would not receive any apanage at all (unlike taxpayer-spoiled Joachim himself whom could make a succes of neither his first marriage nor his gifted splendid estate).

He and his wife had all time of the world to tell that the monarchy and the workings of the Royal House would be changed to make it more sustainable for the future.

Originally Posted by LadyE

I'm not quite sure why Joachim and his family should be expected to take this on the chin without making their own feelings on the matter known.

His children do not receive public money directly, so what was the harm in allowing them to retain the titles that were bestowed on them at birth? Especially since they have understood that the same titles would be lost upon their marriages anyway?

When Nikolai made the comment about his passport, it sounded more like a young man wondering why he was losing his birth name and not the griping of a spoiled child.

After all, he and Felix have done nothing that I am aware of that would warrant the loss of their titles. They have not embarrassed the DRF in any way. They model. It's not like they do porn.

If this was a genuine measure on the part of the Queen to secure the monarchy, would it not have been better to strip any future descendants of Vincent's as well? As we may assume that Isabella's and Josephine's children will not be titled to begin with.

It all seems very cold and petty to me, and I don't believe that Joachim and his family should have to take pains to be quiet and discrete about a very public slight to them. Why must they respect the monarchy that clearly does not value them as members?

Because - anno 2023- it is simply not seen as desireable as well sustainable to have 20 princes and princesses of Denmark around. The trend in many monarchies is to move towards an official Royal House which consists of the current, the future and the former Sovereign.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by LadyE

I'm not quite sure why Joachim and his family should be expected to take this on the chin without making their own feelings on the matter known.

His children do not receive public money directly, so what was the harm in allowing them to retain the titles that were bestowed on them at birth? Especially since they have understood that the same titles would be lost upon their marriages anyway?

When Nikolai made the comment about his passport, it sounded more like a young man wondering why he was losing his birth name and not the griping of a spoiled child.

After all, he and Felix have done nothing that I am aware of that would warrant the loss of their titles. They have not embarrassed the DRF in any way. They model. It's not like they do porn.

If this was a genuine measure on the part of the Queen to secure the monarchy, would it not have been better to strip any future descendants of Vincent's as well? As we may assume that Isabella's and Josephine's children will not be titled to begin with.

It all seems very cold and petty to me, and I don't believe that Joachim and his family should have to take pains to be quiet and discrete about a very public slight to them. Why must they respect the monarchy that clearly does not value them as members?

They would lose the title upon marriage only if they married without consent given by the monarch in the Council of State and were accordingly excluded, together with their descendants, from the line of succession. At least that is the precedent of the Danish princes who lost their titles in the past.



There is no way to know if Nikolai and Felix would ask for consent to marry and, if they asked, if that consent would be denied. My guess is that the answer is Yes to the frst question and No to the second, and we have two examples in another country (Amedeo and Maria Laura of Belgium) that suggest my guess is at least plausible.


On the issue of future generations, I personally have no doubt that the same precedent will be applied (probably from birth) to Isabella's, Vincent's and Josephine's children. The German model of all dynasts being princes/princessses was already hard to defend under agnatic succession. Now, with cognatic succession, it would mean a big inflation of princes unless practically everybody was excluded by marriage after a generation or so. But, honestly, it is better IMHO to not be a prince from birth than being one just to lose your title when you are 30 or in the late 20s (the age people now get married).

[kimebear]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Because - anno 2023- it is simply not seen as desireable as well sustainable to have 20 princes and princesses of Denmark around. The trend in many monarchies is to move towards an official Royal House which consists of the current, the future and the former Sovereign.

And how are they being "sustained" exactly? They don't receive public funds as adults, so there is no burden on the Danish taxpayers. They attend the occasional official function and behave impeccably. Who exactly is being inconvenienced by them keeping their titles?

Originally Posted by Mbruno

They would lose the title upon marriage only if they married without consent given by the monarch in the Council of State and were accordingly excluded, together with their descendants, from the line of succession. At least that is the precedent of the Danish princes who lost their titles in the past.



There is no way to know if Nikolai and Felix would ask for consent to marry and, if they asked, if that consent would be denied. My guess is that the answer is Yes for the frst question and No to second, and we have two examples in another country (Amedeo and Maria Laura of Belgium) that suggest my guess is at least plausible.

Wouldn't it have been cleaner to announce that male line grandchildren of a second son would carry no titles then? Or even state going forward that only children of the monarch and the heir's children carry titles? That would be a blanket solution without having to get personal.



To go about it in the manner that the Queen has done is unnecessarily harsh.

[polyesco]

Originally Posted by tommy100

...

Again, I can't get over the shock of how daisy has managed this - if Joachim was so resistant in May was forcing the issue really the answer? Again, there doesn't seem to be a pressing issue to change a situation that has been the same for 20 odd years so why try and rush it? Daisy should have spoken to Joachim personally several times over and for longer before resorting to simply announcing it like this.

So, Joachim can just refuse? drag his feet for more time. No.
For whatever reason the Queen wanted this done sooner rather then later. She wanted this settled in her reign. That is her decision to make.
I don't think May was the first time this was ever discussed.

[Erin9]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

Was it perhaps someone's move to force Jokke and family out? Not QMII, but one of her "clever" advisors? He's been getting pushed further and further out on that limb before it might have snapped yesterday...



What will they do...? I don't know, but please please please please please not become the Danish Sussexes. Please.



(See what you started, Daisy? What a can't see the forest for the trees move. :sad)

Agreed on this. I fully understand them not giving a message of support when they clearly don’t, especially given how this was handled. I understand commenting when asked- since Joachim’s silence yesterday spoke for itself. Everybody already knew anyway.

But- I do not want to see this turn into the Danish Sussexes. Ugh. That said- they seem hurt. Not angry. That’s very different. And my impression is the Queen seemed taken aback to realize this hadn’t gone down well….probably because she hadn’t involved herself personally enough to know.

So- hopefully this won’t be Sussex- like. Or- at the least I hope this won’t continue to be a public drama. It’s in everyone’s best interests to at least not keep commenting publicly.

Honestly- if the boys don’t feel they’re being adversely affected by having titles and the public don’t care about the titles….then who cares about doing this right now anyway? It’s not a money issue. This doesn’t help the public in any way. (I’d say the same about the BRF fwiw. So- just leave it. And do things going forward.)

[tommy100]

Originally Posted by polyesco

So, Joachim can just refuse? drag his feet for more time. No.
For whatever reason the Queen wanted this done sooner rather then later. She wanted this settled in her reign. That is her decision to make.
I don't think May was the first time this was ever discussed.

No, and I didn't say that. I said announcing it now when you know Joachim doesn't agree when there seems no pressing need for it to be announced right now strikes me as odd, and rather stupid of the Court. Given the Queen hasn't seemingly even spoken to her son about it, and not her elder grandsons that seems like a step you'd take before announcing knowing it doesn't have your family's support. I imagine the family and Court have been distracted by the Jubilee events as well so how much time has truly been spent on discussing this?
If they knew Joachim was so opposed, making sure they've taken every step possible for an agreement e.g. several meetings between Daisy and Joachim, Daisy meeting with her elder grandsons who could perhaps have been persuaded independently, heck even meeting Marie and Alexandra without Joachim would all be steps I'd expect to take. Doing the bare minimum and hoping for the best is pure stupidity.

[Erin9]

Originally Posted by tommy100

No, and I didn't say that. I said announcing it now when you know Joachim doesn't agree when there seems no pressing need for it to be announced right now strikes me as odd, and rather stupid of the Court. Given the Queen hasn't seemingly even spoken to her son about it, and not her elder grandsons that seems like a step you'd take before announcing knowing it doesn't have your family's support. I imagine the family and Court have been distracted by the Jubilee events as well so how much time has truly been spent on discussing this?

If they knew Joachim was so opposed, making sure they've taken every step possible for an agreement e.g. several meetings between Daisy and Joachim, Daisy meeting with her elder grandsons who could perhaps have been persuaded independently, heck even meeting Marie and Alexandra without Joachim would all be steps I'd expect to take. Doing the bare minimum and hoping for the best is pure stupidity.

Agreed. This could have and should have been handled so much better. It seems stupid to announce something you don’t really have to knowing you don’t have your son’s support and clearly not having put forth maximum effort to work out.

Your last sentence says it all.