New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022

[Saragli]

I really do feel for the family. It isn't just a title, it is an identity as well. Even though I feel its appropriate, I can't help but think about how disappointed and sad I will feel if King Charles takes away HRH AND Princess from the York girls. But emotions aside, it is the correct decision, the execution is all wrong though.

There are many things that could have been done differently. HM could have announced that HH and Prince/ss would only be used privately amongst the family and HE Count/ess publicly. HM could have removed HH and Prince/ss but given each of her grandchild a unique, and thoughtful, title each - a simply and meaningful touch. HM could have gone further and made a distinction between Royal House and Royal Family. Make just members who will receive an income HRH - such as the CP couple and Christian, and the other children of the sovereign or heir just HH such as Isabella, V&I and their children just be known as HE Count/ess.

The most important thing that could have been done differently is the communication within the family and the PR involved. There's no denying that this has caused an immense amount of hurt within the family and it will take tremendous effort to heal, if even possible.

[tihkon2]

Originally Posted by kalnel

I think it's wrong to assume that the Queen, her office, and Joachim haven't been communicating about this in an ongoing way for months.

Joachim makes it sound like they brought it up with him in May, then dropped a bomb on him and the kids with five days' notice. I wonder if it went more like this:

May
QM2: Joachim, we need to change this situation and remove children's princely titles.
J: Wait! I want to offer another plan.
QM2: Like what?
J: When each one turns 26.
QM2: Hmmm...keep working on it.

June
QM2: Where's the plan?
J: I'm working on it.

July
QM2: Where's the plan?
J: I'm working on it.

August
QM2: Where's the plan? I want to move on this!
J: I'm working on it.

September
QM2: I'm done waiting.
J: Wait! I haven't finished the plan. I haven't talked to the kids.

BOOM!

Or.......it happened like he said it did and it wasn't something someone pulled out of thin air.

[Moonmaiden23]

Will Joachim's children retain HRH or at least HH Count/Countess de Monpezat?

Please forgive me if this has already been covered.

[Prinsara]

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23

Will Joachim's children retain HRH or at least HH Count/Countess de Monpezat?

Please forgive me if this has already been covered.

They don't have HRH right now; they're all HH. And, no, they're all going to be "HE" Excellency.

Not that it makes this remotely excellent.

[Iolanthe]

CNN spoke with Alexandra's press secretary.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/29/europ...ntl/index.html

A few interesting parts:

“She [Alexandra] can’t believe why and why now, because there’s no good reason. They would lose their titles anyway when they get married one day. Her sons are young men so maybe they might get married in the near future so why shouldn’t it wait until that day so that the titles would disappear on a happy day?”

She said the children only learned of the change in their titles in recent days, adding: “Back in May he (Prince Joachim) was told that they might remove their titles when they turn 25 and then he didn’t hear any more until a few days ago.”

Responding to the palace’s explanation that this will enable the youngsters to lead a more normal life, she added: “They will never get a normal life. If they do something very stupid it will always come back on the family.”

“It’s just their loss of identity and it’s very hard for little children and young men. As Prince Nikolai said to me, ‘what will they write in my passport now?’”

[tihkon2]

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23

Will Joachim's children retain HRH or at least HH Count/Countess de Monpezat?

Please forgive me if this has already been covered.

It's been mentioned in the initial press release. They will lose the HH's and become their Excellencies, Count or Countess.

[kalnel]

Alexandra really needs to get out of the press. What will they write on Nikolai's passport? Well, what did they write on HER passport?

And she thinks it would be preferable to remove the title on their wedding days, when it would affect two people? Wow.

Hard to imagine that Joachim let things ride for five months without inquiring again.

Originally Posted by tihkon2

Or.......it happened like he said it did and it wasn't something someone pulled out of thin air.

I'm following his statements and timeline.

[Muhler]

Well, at present I really don't understand what on earth is going on!

So it's a continual reflection from me, where a number of thoughts and ideas pop up in my head. So here are some more:

QMII is suffering from the have-been-the-CO-for-too-long syndrome. That is she has forgotten that her decision, while perfectly sensible in her mind, affects real people with real feelings.
She just took a decision because that's what she does daily and has been doing for 50+ years.
In which case she is probably banging her head against the wall right now.

Or for whatever reason QMII and Joachim have fallen totally out with each other. To the point of now open hostility. They certainly don't seem to communicate personally anymore.
I do wonder if Joachim got the first draft in an e-mail back in May.
I can imagine all sorts of reasons why Joachim and QMII have fallen out with each other. But nothing I think can justify such behavior from both sides.
I find it very difficult to imagine that it has progressed to this stage all of a sudden. It must have build up over a period.
Either QMII has simply had enough of Joachim!
That is QMII has somehow snapped and gone full Aunt Queen on Joachim. Including taking her frustrations out on him.

Or QMII is losing it.
And Joachim is standing there with his jaw dangling between his knees having no clue from where that came from.
I do notice that QMII let Joachim be informed by the Chief of Court while M&F were away in New York. And Frederik suddenly rushed home.
Frederik is the only one with enough weight to if not veto his mother, then at least being able to try an influence her. But she is the Monarch. If she has signed the documents, that's it. That's her right.
I do wonder if Frederik got a call from the Chief of Court: You'd better come home, Frederik. I'm afraid the boss is going tonto!
I do believe that had Frederik been around he could have prevented this mess, and if need be told his brother himself. Or at least tried to smooth things out to the best of his abilities.

Like we saw with PH, people can be perfectly rational about practically everything, but very fixated on one or two issues. In PH's case his desire to be king.
Is QMII getting fixated and thus being irrational when it comes to Joachim or the topic of titles of Joachim's children?

I simply do not understand why QMII didn't simply stick to the first proposal, which in my opinion was actually very sensible.
Even if Joachim was dragging his feet and whining incessantly about it 24/7 she could just have stuck to the first draft and that's it. Why change it to pretty much taking affect de facto immediately?
Why not call Joachim and simply explain that she took this decision because she was not willing to postpone it anymore and he has had enough time to comment on it.
Sending the Chief of Court is an unnecessarily cold and formal way of doing this. That's something an absolute monarch would do to a prince who is banished from court. Very melodramatic.

In the clip Joachim looked like QMII had suddenly left him on the stairs to an orphanage and driven away.
And being in this emotional state it's no wonder he puts it on thick. Removing the identity of his children. - Well, they all knew it was coming. And they'll survive being "mere counts."
But Joachim is clearly hurt. Perhaps not about the titles being taken away, he seemed like he had accepted that - to take place when they were 25 though. But certainly about the way it was done.

Having said that: I do feel an urge to whack first Alexandra (twice) and then Joachim, but also Nikolai on the heads with a shovel! Hard!
Going public with this one won't help one bit! On the contrary.
It won't help mending any rift between Joachim and QMII.
It won't restore the children's titles.
And it won't help their public image in the long run. - Yeah sure, people have sympathy for the way they treated but not for the children losing their titles and their identity and what not.
As we saw in regards to the public reaction to PH, titles don't matter much in the eyes of the Danes. There is a reason why for example renovation technicians insist on being called binmen here. Because a fancier title makes no difference, they still collect garbage.

The best solution would be to have said nothing at all.
The second best to at least have a family meeting with Frederik and other members of the family to learn what on earth is going on, before saying anything to the press.
But people are not rational when it's about hurt feelings. And this is so much about hurt feelings.
Anyway, they will soon be yesterdays news. Come Tuesday the public and the press will have other things on their minds.

QMII has indeed put M&F in an awkward situation. M&F have to support QMII to whatever extent they feel they can. There is no way Mary nor Frederik will say anything against QMII's decision.

I do however believe this will increase the numbers among the public who believe M&F should take over the sooner the better. - I being one of them, That's no secret.

- I realize this is me rambling, but helps to put my thoughts down. Because I really don't get all this.

[Prinsara]

"If they do something very stupid it will always come back on the family.”

Ain't that the truth.

And if their grandmother does something very stupid....?

[FigTree]

Originally Posted by kalnel

Alexandra really needs to get out of the press. What will they write on Nikolai's passport? Well, what did they write on HER passport?

And she thinks it would be preferable to remove the title on their wedding days, when it would affect two people? Wow.

Hard to imagine that Joachim let things ride for five months without inquiring again.

Recollections may vary.

[akina21]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

Joachim said his alternate proposal was that the children lose them at age 25. He thought it was being considered. As he said "Athena is 11 in January". Clearly the timescale ended up being vastly different.

I find even that proposal stupid . I would not have done anything to the current grandchildren (both Joachim's and Frederik's kids) and then restrict the prince/ss title to the children of the heir (Christian's future children ) while the rest get's the count/ess title

[FigTree]

Originally Posted by akina21

I find even that proposal stupid . I would not have done anything to the current grandchildren (both Joachim's and Frederik's kids) and then restrict the prince/ss title to the children of the heir (Christian's future children ) while the rest get's the count/ess title

That’s essentially what is happening. Someone has to be the first. If they were going to loose them when they married this whole thing looks ridiculous. Just get rid of them anyway. She may have had to give a horrendous knife blow but the Queen was right.

[Muhler]

Quoted from Iolanthe:

"CNN spoke with Alexandra's press secretary.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/29/europ...ntl/index.html

A few interesting parts:

Quote:
“She [Alexandra] can’t believe why and why now, because there’s no good reason. They would lose their titles anyway when they get married one day. Her sons are young men so maybe they might get married in the near future so why shouldn’t it wait until that day so that the titles would disappear on a happy day?”
Quote:
She said the children only learned of the change in their titles in recent days, adding: “Back in May he (Prince Joachim) was told that they might remove their titles when they turn 25 and then he didn’t hear any more until a few days ago.”
Quote:
Responding to the palace’s explanation that this will enable the youngsters to lead a more normal life, she added: “They will never get a normal life. If they do something very stupid it will always come back on the family.”
Quote:
“It’s just their loss of identity and it’s very hard for little children and young men. As Prince Nikolai said to me, ‘what will they write in my passport now?’”

---------

- Oh do shut up, Alexandra!

What will they write in my passport? - Indeed!
What did he write when he bought something online? First name: Prins. Last name: Nikolai?
Of course he didn't. He likely used the name Nikolai Frederiksborg or Nikolai Monpezat.

Alexandra just earned a third whack on the head with my shovel.

As if the international audience, let alone an American audience will sympathize with them.

[Alisa]

I cannot help but think of how professionally Madeleine and Carl Philip acted when the decision was made to remove HRH from their children's title.

They acted with more maturity than Joachim and company. Even if Joachim and Alexandra didn't agree with the decision- going to the press and voicing your disdain for the decision isn't the way to go. Now everyone knows their is a rift and contention in the royal family and house.

Perhaps it's time Alexandra loses her title since she is so vocal in opposition of the new changes.

[akina21]

Originally Posted by FigTree

That’s essentially what is happening. Someone has to be the first. If they were going to loose them when they married this whole thing looks ridiculous. Just get rid of them anyway. She may have had to give a horrendous knife blow but the Queen was right.

And the first should have been the future children of Isabella , Josephine and Vincent .

[Sister Morphine]

"What will they write in my passport now?"

Gee, Nikolai, I don't know...how about your name? See, this is what I was talking about. If you care so much about a title that you're having a borderline existential crisis over what will be written in your passport moving forward, there's a disconnect somewhere.

[FigTree]

Originally Posted by akina21

And the first should have been the future children of Isabella , Josephine and Vincent .

Why? Time moves fast and we are probably years away from that and in recent years it has b come increasing obvious that royal families need to slim to survive and to keep relevant. No one on the street will actually care about the titles of four incredibly wealthy and privileged people.

If Charles III stripped Beatrice and Eugenie aineould probably think will it’s probably right.

[Andrew 24]

They probably used Nikolai til Denmark as it was his name.

[Prinsara]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Alexandra just earned a third whack on the head with my shovel.

As if the international audience, let alone an American audience will sympathize with them.

*raises hand from across the Atlantic*

Muhler, if some random government functionary called you last week and told you you had to change your name starting from New Year's, how would you feel?

Maybe go after them with the shovel first.

Loyalty is earned. And reciprocal! Not absolute. I don't know what the Danish words for clusterf*ck (or SNAFU/TARFU/FUBAR) are, but I bet they're good ones.

[FigTree]

Originally Posted by Sister Morphine

Gee, Nikolai, I don't know...how about your name? See, this is what I was talking about. If you care so much about a title that you're having a borderline existential crisis over what will be written in your passport moving forward, there's a disconnect somewhere.

Have a cry in private, no one is saying you would probably not feel so great for a bit BUT a life has not been taken away from them. They don’t do duties and are essentially private individuals.