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  #421  
Old 09-29-2022, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Erin9 View Post
Agreed. This is one reason why Iíve never liked the idea of doing this to the York girls- or anyone else in the BRF that are old enough to understand. This is the kind of mess you get.

If you do decide to retroactively make changes- then theSwede model is a good way. Itís a compromise of sorts and impacted very young children. This was neither. Even just one of the 2 things the Swedes did would be preferable to this imo.

Furthermore- communication from the Boss- the Queen- would be a good move. Didnít happen here.

Iím thinking the Swedish King might have actually talked to his kids about this.

And regardless- he didnít make the move until he knew he had everyone on board. So- it worked well enough that he got their public support. Total fail here.

Two great examples of what to do or not to do imo.
What I still don't understand is WHY this could just not have been a "going forward" situation? What is the issue with leaving them as Prince/Princess and then THEIR children will be Count/Countess. That would have solved the issue without all this mess QMII created. And yes SHE created this mess. Sorry to all those that think she does no wrong...but she's human.

I read Nikolai's statement. To me..that sounds more like a grandson hurt by his grandmother's actions and how it was done. He is allowed to have emotions.

And again, This has not helped Frederik at all! In fact, it has now put him and Mary in a very awkward position. So, so much for QMII took one for the heir....yeah right. She dropped the bomb and now everyone else has to deal with the fallout....hope Mary is prepared tomorrow as she will be asked about it. And there is ZERO way she can give an answer that won't put her in the middle of the mess. There is no neutral answer she can give. So once again...HOW did this help Frederik or Mary?
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  #422  
Old 09-29-2022, 03:53 PM
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Having had time to think about it I think there are two separate but interconnected issues here:

The issue of royal titles for those in the wider family - which I think there seems universal agreement on that it is needed and the way forward. Personally I'd have rather the titles were just made personal, so no spouses got them on marriage and no children and announce that going forward only the children of the heir would have titles (that certainly would have made it look less personal a move - this is the way we are moving and we are making an exception to allow my grandchildren to keep some element of their title - isn't that what Sweden did?)

Then the issue of the way it was done and what that suggests about things inside the DRF and that seems to be IMO the biggest issue. I think what we are really seeing here from Joachim, at least, is upset at a change in family dynamics that seem to have come about, a loss of relationship between his mother and his family. The Queen seems to have basically given this to staff to sort out and not herself got involved at all. I would expect if it were my grandmother she would at least have the good manners (which Daisy always seems to insist on) to tell me in person herself. Daisy has gone down in my estimation, very much so really. Not because she took the titles away but that she has done so in a rather cruel, business like manner. Even the most famous ostrich of all QE2 dealt with her family's biggest issue personally in a family meeting. I also note there has been no talk of the grandchildren still being 100% part of the family. I remember never really believing those stories that Daisy didn't have much to do with her sons in their childhood - well I believe it now! If even sour puss Carl Gustaf can get his family together and talk the issue through and get them all to agree (in public at least) then I would expect Daisy would be able to do that. She is rather cruel - again not for what she has done but how she has done it.

To those saying Joachim is being snobbish crying over his children not being prince's but becoming counts I don't think that is the issue he is upset by at all.
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  #423  
Old 09-29-2022, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard View Post
Telling Joachim to man up and walk in a straight line will always give the opposite effectÖ It is like trying to tell off the late Prince Henrik :-D

He has never been like Frederik
Funny enough, that's why some of us like him.
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  #424  
Old 09-29-2022, 03:57 PM
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There is no neutral answer indeed as there is little middle ground. They are either princes or they are not. And I can see why the Queen and later -God willing - her son are served by not having too many princes of the realm around that can embarrass the monarchy by f.e. some unconventional carreer choices.

As the Queen's statement says, this decision will make it easier for Nikolai and his siblings to freely chose a career and life. Unlike others here I always found it curious that prince Nikolai did his modelling while using his royal title. It reeked of abusing the title for financial gain, as we have seen with other royals too of course. I was surprised that there was so little criticism about it TBH, while we saw with Pss Martha Louise that in Norway it was considered a problem.

In the Netherlands the daughter of prince Constantijn is making a fool of herself on social media. I imagine it would be much more of a problem if she had not been a 'mere' countess but a Princess of the Netherlands. In Belgium there are little problems for now, mostly because the junior princes move discreetly in the shadow. And perhaps they are more used to having many princes around anyway, considering there are so many great noble houses in Belgium with princely titles.

If the matter was raised in May, it must not have been such a surprise after all. As said: there is little middle ground. I doubt Joachim or his wives would ever look favourably upon a change now, in five months or in five years. Perhaps the Queen/ the court felt that the decision had to be forced. Who knows?

As others said: what is done is done. There is no use in whining and in all they are still very, very priviliged children.
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  #425  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
It's possible to believe QMII should have done this differently while also saying that Joachim and his family need to stop whining about it. Yes, it was handled poorly. No one here, myself included, has said otherwise. However, I think they would have complained about it even if she had done it differently. She was damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. Nothing about how they're acting now would lead me to believe they'd have handled with it with class and dignity if she'd dealt with it the way she should have.



Neither the Kent nor Gloucester dukedoms will die with the present dukes. They both have sons that will inherit them. However, they will cease to be royal dukedoms, and their sons will be styled as "His Grace" rather than "His Royal Highness."
I was referring to their HRH Princely titles and those of Prince Michael and Princess Alexandra.
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  #426  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
All these people saying Joachim's entire family should suck it up, calling them overprivileged, entitled, etc, are missing the point.

It's not that this was done. It's HOW it was done. When there was a perfectly good IKEA manual from Sweden, Daisy ended up needlepointing a mess just for creativity's sake.

(And unnecessarily hurting at least five people she ostensibly cares about.)
The IKEA manual from Sweden is IKEA quality: not perfect. All grandchildren from Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine will be Mr/Mrs/Miss while the descendants of Prince Joachim at least are Greve (Komtesse) de Monpezat.

If they already are discontent with a hereditary comital title, imagine the uproar when they become "plain" Mr/Ms/Miss.
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  #427  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
There is no neutral answer indeed as there is little middle ground. They are either princes or they are not. And I can see why the Queen and later -God willing - her son are served by not having too many princes of the realm around that can embarrass the monarchy by f.e. some unconventional carreer choices.

Unlike others here I always found it curious that prince Nikolai did his modelling while using his royal title. It reeked of abusing the title for financial gain, as we have seen with other royals too of course. As the Queen's statement says, this decision will make it easier for Nikolai and his siblings to freely choose a career and life.

In the Netherlands the daughter of prince Constantijn is making a fool of herself on social media. I imagine it would be much more of a problem if she had not been a 'mere' countess but a Princess of the Netherlands.

If the matter was raised in May, it must not have been such a surprise after all. As said: there is little middle ground. I doubt Joachim or his wives would ever look favourably upon a change. Perhaps the Queen/ the court felt that the decision had to be forced. Who knows?

As others said: what is done is done. There is no use in whining and in all they are still very, very priviliged children.
I'll repeat myself as many times as I have to: Unlike other merching royals or royal-adjacents, Nikolai and Felix worked with the title WITH THE QUEEN'S PERMISSION. Had there been even the slightest doubt, all that she would have had to say was "no".

And neither one of them has ever made a fool of himself, let alone shown anything less than an enormous amount of respect for their grandmother.

So because they are very, very privileged, they apparently don't deserve to be treated with respect or even courtesy from their grandmother, like letting them have more than a few days notice?
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  #428  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:08 PM
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I do not understand what QM was thinking. What's the point of taking their titles away if they're not receiving anything from state or making money out of it
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  #429  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
I'll repeat myself as many times as I have to: Unlike other merching royals or royal-adjacents, Nikolai and Felix worked with the title WITH THE QUEEN'S PERMISSION. Had there been even the slightest doubt, all that she would have had to say was "no".

And neither one of them has ever made a fool of himself, let alone shown anything less than an enormous amount of respect for their grandmother.

So because they are very, very privileged, they apparently don't deserve to be treated with respect or even courtesy from their grandmother, like letting them have more than a few days notice?
How do you know it was with the Queen's permission and that she was asked?
For the same amount she was not asked and a parading Prince of Denmark on the catwalk was a reason for her to go forward with her decision?
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  #430  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:12 PM
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Good lord, now Nikolai is talking, can't they just shut up?

It was a good decision, poorly executed, although the only "good" way to go about it would have been if Vincent and Josephine had gotten the same treatment and Isabella (being the spare) would have been demoted to HH for the next decade, at least until Christian has a child. Then demoted to Countess like her sister and cousin.

But regardless of that, now that Nikolai has said he's known for the past 6 days, I can't bring myself to have any sympathy for him nor for his mother and father. If they already knew, then why make such a fuss? I understand they might be hurt, but they are also hurting the Queen. I also can't stand liers, he says he hasn't seen the clip of his father talking in Paris, then says he "just like his father said in Paris" won't elaborate on his relationship with QMII. Make up your mind, my boy. (..)
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  #431  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:12 PM
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Joachim, Alexandra and Marie have every right to feel hurt by this situation. After all, it's a situation that involves your children. I understand that Nikolai and Felix and their brothers feel that they have somehow been demoted by their grandmother.
But I think the biggest problem is how everything was done. It appears that there has been a major miscommunication within the royal family.
But Queen Margrethe II is preparing the royal house for the future. And some decisions, like this one, she couldn't leave to Frederik to decide.
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  #432  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
There is no neutral answer indeed as there is little middle ground. They are either princes or they are not. And I can see why the Queen and later -God willing - her son are served by not having too many princes of the realm around that can embarrass the monarchy by f.e. some unconventional carreer choices.

As the Queen's statement says, this decision will make it easier for Nikolai and his siblings to freely choose a career and life. Unlike others here I always found it curious that prince Nikolai did his modelling while using his royal title. It reeked of abusing the title for financial gain, as we have seen with other royals too of course. I was surprised that there was so little criticism about it TBH, while we saw with Pss Martha Louise that in Norway it was considered a problem.

In the Netherlands the daughter of prince Constantijn is making a fool of herself on social media. I imagine it would be much more of a problem if she had not been a 'mere' countess but a Princess of the Netherlands. In Belgium there are little problems for now, mostly because the junior princes move discreetly in the shadow. And perhaps they are more used to having many princes around anyway, considering there are so many great noble houses in Belgium with princely titles.

If the matter was raised in May, it must not have been such a surprise after all. As said: there is little middle ground. I doubt Joachim or his wives would ever look favourably upon a change now, in five months or in five years. Perhaps the Queen/ the court felt that the decision had to be forced. Who knows?

As others said: what is done is done. There is no use in whining and in all they are still very, very priviliged children.
Agree very much.
Joachim knew since May, it sounds like he was trying to negotiate or convince the Queen to something differently. The monarchs decisions are the monarchs.

That Joachim and Alexandra did not prepare their grown sons is disappointing.

I think Nikolai's commercialization of his title was only growing.
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  #433  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Izzie View Post
What I still don't understand is WHY this could just not have been a "going forward" situation? What is the issue with leaving them as Prince/Princess and then THEIR children will be Count/Countess. That would have solved the issue without all this mess QMII created. And yes SHE created this mess. Sorry to all those that think she does no wrong...but she's human.



I read Nikolai's statement. To me..that sounds more like a grandson hurt by his grandmother's actions and how it was done. He is allowed to have emotions.



And again, This has not helped Frederik at all! In fact, it has now put him and Mary in a very awkward position. So, so much for QMII took one for the heir....yeah right. She dropped the bomb and now everyone else has to deal with the fallout....hope Mary is prepared tomorrow as she will be asked about it. And there is ZERO way she can give an answer that won't put her in the middle of the mess. There is no neutral answer she can give. So once again...HOW did this help Frederik or Mary?


Agreed.

All Iím getting is hurt from them, and they donít understand it. Yeah- communication was clearly lacking. And we know TQ didnít communicate directly to Joachim. Perhaps if sheíd bothered to do that- there might actually be some understanding.

The only favor I think she really did Frederick is a great example of what not to do with his own kids. Her statement says nothing explicitly about future spares. So- heíll have that issue anyway. Potentially 3 times over.

The way I see it- donít expect classy statements of support if this is the manner in which youíre going to handle things.
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  #434  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:16 PM
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Since Joachim doesn't seem too happy about his own position within the royal family and the monarchy, as a father I would expect him to be happy for his children for not going to have the same limitations he had. Whining about feeling like loosing their identity if they no longer have royal titles, well that makes them look like over privileged, shallow and self absorbed people who have no understanding and no respect for the monarchy.


Margrethe II is an experienced head of state with 50 year long careful observance of people's changing perception of monarchy. Her decision is the best way forward for both her grandchildren and the monarchy. Currently none of the 4 grandchildren is married and with issue so this is the best time to do it, not waiting until each one of them turns 25. Just look at Japanese princesses how dignified and respectful they are when they loose their titles upon getting married.


This decision wasn't made by the Queen in a day or two, discussion about it started years ago. So if someone was left blindsided and shocked, then the problem in communication lies with Joachim and his family, not the Queen or her PR team.
Even if the Queen gave them 5 years and not 5 days, even if she intensively talked to each one of them in person, I believe that their reaction would still be the same. Because their perception of what being royal means obviously isn't the same as the Queen's perception, unfortunately.
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  #435  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The IKEA manual from Sweden is IKEA quality: not perfect. All grandchildren from Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine will be Mr/Mrs/Miss while the descendants of Prince Joachim at least are Greve (Komtesse) de Monpezat.

If they already are discontent with a hereditary comital title, imagine the uproar when they become "plain" Mr/Ms/Miss.
You keep ignoring the part where they seem to be more upset by the truly rude and callous way it was handled. She even couldn't talk to her son or grandchildren personally. How nice......

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Originally Posted by Adda View Post
Good lord, now Nikolai is talking, can't they just shut up?

I also can't stand liers, he says he hasn't seen the clip of his father talking in Paris, then says he "just like his father said in Paris" won't elaborate on his relationship with QMII. Make up your mind, my boy.
Well, you missed the part where he said he HAD READ WHAT HIS FATHER SAID.
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  #436  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:29 PM
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I would appreciate some clarification from those who have closely followed the reports and interviews: Prince Joachim and family are clearly saddened and angry about the execution of the change, but also in some respects by the change itself. My question is: Exactly which aspects of the title reform are they feeling hurt by?

For example, would they or would they not also have been saddened and angry (even if not quite to the same degree) about:

A) a decision that the siblings would maintain their prince(ss) titles for now but lose them if and when they marry (similar to Elisabeth, Ingolf, and Christian)?

B) a decision that the siblings would personally keep their titles for life, but none of their spouses or children would receive a prince(ss) title?

C) a decision that the siblings would retain their titles for life and even pass them on to spouses and children, but be banned from using them professionally going forward?

I have the same question regarding the criticism of the Queen and sympathy for Joachim and family from the public and the media: Is it only about the execution? Or the stripping of titles from adults? Or stripping titles from any living persons of whatever age? Or does the public oppose any kind of limitation on royal titles and want all of Joachim's (male-line?) descendants in perpetuity to be prince(ss)?
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  #437  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:34 PM
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Very weird situation. Please do remember that Nikolai nad Felix are grown up independent men so it was QMII role to arrange and prepare them to this. As I understand their reaction is more due to the lose of identivy than degradation of princerly title. They never got HRH, nor work for RF nor was getting allowance and never asked for it. Since birth all four of Joachim's children were prince of /til/ Denmark and this was their name. They used it during school years, studies and with the Queen permission at work. It was QMII decision. Now after twenty years their name and official connection with family they came was taken away. They are not Glucksburgs or Oldenburgs that is the name of dynasty. Since 1st of Jan the will be know as Nikolai or Felix de Montpezant. The name their truly never used before and probably have non real connecntion. Those action could be seen as infringement of their personal rights.
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  #438  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ppetrica View Post
Since Joachim doesn't seem too happy about his own position within the royal family and the monarchy, as a father I would expect him to be happy for his children for not going to have the same limitations he had. Whining about feeling like loosing their identity if they no longer have royal titles, well that makes them look like over privileged, shallow and self absorbed people who have no understanding and no respect for the monarchy.
Maybe they are just that. It just looks so unbecoming.
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  #439  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I would appreciate some clarification from those who have closely followed the reports and interviews: Prince Joachim and family are clearly saddened and angry about the execution of the change, but also in some respects by the change itself. My question is: Exactly which aspects of the title reform are they feeling hurt by?

For example, would they or would they not also have been saddened and angry (even if not quite to the same degree) about:

A) a decision that the siblings would maintain their prince(ss) titles for now but lose them if and when they marry (similar to Elisabeth, Ingolf, and Christian)?

B) a decision that the siblings would personally keep their titles for life, but none of their spouses or children would receive a prince(ss) title?

C) a decision that the siblings would retain their titles for life and even pass them on to spouses and children, but be banned from using them professionally going forward?

I have the same question regarding the criticism of the Queen and sympathy for Joachim and family from the public and the media: Is it only about the execution? Or the stripping of titles from adults? Or stripping titles from any living persons of whatever age? Or does the public oppose any kind of limitation on royal titles and want all of Joachim's (male-line?) descendants in perpetuity to be prince(ss)?

Joachim said his alternate proposal was that the children lose them at age 25. He thought it was being considered. As he said "Athena is 11 in January". Clearly the timescale ended up being vastly different.
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  #440  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:38 PM
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I think it's wrong to assume that the Queen, her office, and Joachim haven't been communicating about this in an ongoing way for months.

Joachim makes it sound like they brought it up with him in May, then dropped a bomb on him and the kids with five days' notice. I wonder if it went more like this:

May
QM2: Joachim, we need to change this situation and remove children's princely titles.
J: Wait! I want to offer another plan.
QM2: Like what?
J: When each one turns 26.
QM2: Hmmm...keep working on it.

June
QM2: Where's the plan?
J: I'm working on it.

July
QM2: Where's the plan?
J: I'm working on it.

August
QM2: Where's the plan? I want to move on this!
J: I'm working on it.

September
QM2: I'm done waiting.
J: Wait! I haven't finished the plan. I haven't talked to the kids.

BOOM!
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