New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022

[yukari]

In the plan stated by Joachim where each would lose their title at 25, let's say Nikolai marry at 23, would his wife a Princess for 2 years until he's 25? Honestly, losing title gradually one by one seems weird particularly if by the time Athena 25, the Queen might already pass. It's her decision so it's fitting if it takes effect during her reign.

I agree with some posters that the death of Queen Elizabeth might be one of the triggers. Anything can happen anytime without warning so better strike it in one go now while she's still able. She's doing what QEII did with Camilla's Queen Consort title. But I also agree that it could/should be communicated better to the affected parties so there's less drama.

As for Joachim comment, it could be that he has no problem on the title lost but more about feeling blindsided by the (sudden?) announcement. Or it could also be because he's still lobbying the decision (I wonder whether the "losing title at 25" was his proposal or it came from the royal household? I feel like it came from him).

I see some video where the Queen has been asked about this issue during an engagement and she seemed a bit startled.

[tihkon2]

Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1

It doesn’t mean the children are less loved in any way.

Sounds like the children don't see it quite the way you do.
My issue isn't with the titles being taken way. It's the WAY they were. The way it was done yesterday sucks. Badly.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

I wonder if the family discord is why the announcement expressly stated

"The Queen’s decision is in line with similar adjustments that other royal houses have made in various ways in recent years."

I don't think this is a good decision in the long term. IMHO the government of a country tends to want what was has been the king's privilege in the on-going move of the political power from the souvereign to the people the country's citizens have voted in.


Stripping titles off Royal offspring and allowing them to lead "normal careers" sounds good as an idea. But when the monarch does that to certain members of the family, who's to say that it should be stopped there? Why only Joachim's children? Because they are "just" the children of the "spare"? Then why keep the titles for the CP's children? These three yonger children will end up "unneeded" as well. Do they have to look forward to loose their titles (and thus part of the identity they grew up with) as well? And why not take the firstborn child of a direct-line heir out of the (now considered throughly unroyal) family and let the (untitled) wife of a direct heir raise the other kids while the heir's heir's heir is raised apart as a future monarch? There is only a tiny step from there to abolish the monarchy because who needs Royals that can be stripped off their tiltes at the monarch's whim in a political system that's based on the people's basic rights and laws protecting that?

I'm not even sure the queen can do so under European law....

If I was Joachim or one of his wifes, I would be fuming having an aunt like Benedikte, still running around as a princess of Denmark doing some public duties even though she is "only" a widowed German "princess" (name, not title) after all or another aunt who is treated as Her Majesty though she lived in exile for decades now while my children, a queen's grandchildren, were stripped of their titles being teenagers or young adults only and used to be who they are, since birth. I already can imagine what this will mean for the former princess-daughter of Joachim in her (probably posh) school in Paris! Poor girl. As she is not even a grevine in her own right but then just a Komtesse...



And the next step will be that the government decides on who's important in the family and who is not. And then... why is the monarch important?

That, IMHO is the fastest way to a democracy with no king or queen, but a voted in president (m/f). When even a monarch has no more respect for the Blood Royal of their family, who should have it? Why bow, courtsey or just show any form of reference to the head of a family that is not considerd "worthy" of the titles they were born with anymore? Even though they've done nothing? Where will end where this has been started? It's very good that there has never been a a need for gender discussions in Denmark after Margrethe's ascent to the throne and there wasn't any reason to talk race about the first sons of Prince Joachim yet. But when these things happen IMHO it's the first step towards abolishing the monarchy. Or the second step if you think about the Counts of Rosenberg and their father, the Arveprince.


It was okay with the Norwegian Royals, seeing as there was Marius already as a not-Royal family member before a Royal child was born, the the heir, Ingrid Alexandra and then Sverre, the spare. Who is a HH Prince of Norway still, isn't he, though he is only the grandson of the king?

And I can understand the wish of minor Royals not to be known as a part of the Royal House when they try to lead normal lifes (as if "normal lifes" are something you have to have when you were born into the upper echelons of society - it's more about what you can do in your life without the media coming after you...). But such a young girl and young boy as Joachim's younger children? Living in Paris, the capital of humility? The place where poor and rich are equal??? LOL! I bet when the former princess is having her first boyfriend this is exactly how she is presented in Ekstra or Billed Bladet: as "former princess of Denmark, now Komtesse...).
(And, coming back to the original topic: why are these kids of Joachim anything but normal Danish citizens? Why be a "Count" if a normal life is envisioned for them? Shouldn't they be just really normal citizens, maybe taking on normal names like Nicolai Joachimsson? Athena Mariedottir or even Cavallier?


If the family members of the monarch are citizens like you and me, that's fine. But why have a monarch after all? What makes this person so "good" that we accept them as heirs and later as the chef when they have only what they deny their family - the Blood Royal??

[SirGyamfi1]

Originally Posted by tommy100

I'm surprised at it, thought I think it is a good way forward for all RFs. I am surprised they didn't do like Sweden and allow them to use the title but not pass them on via marriage, to children etc.
Shocked at Alexandra's reaction. She may not be a member of the RF but I think it would only be fair, and tbh good manners to tell her before hand. Being able to have the whole family speak in favour of it as the Swedish RF did would cut any speculation of drama and upset. While Alexandra should perhaps have stayed quiet, its poor PR from the Danish Royal Court not to get her on side.

I do feel a bit for the children, when you look at all those big family get togethers the rest of the family all tend to have titles - Anne-Marie's children and grandchildren have titles and aren't even from a real reigning RF anymore and Benedikte's children have titles from a defunct German RF. Yet here are the grandchildren of the last current Queen Regnant in Europe having theirs taken away.

The territorial designation and titles/ last names of the Queen’s sisters don’t compare in this at all. It isn’t going make them look important than the Greeks and the Sayn-Wittgenstein’s

[Sidacarri]

I do think this was all necessary and probably should have happened long ago.

Prince Joachim needs to be an adult, he has known about this scince May and should have discussed this with his children. I title is just that, it doesn't make you a better person or more happy. You need to carve your own life and his children will be great people without being a prince or princess. That is what he should have told them. The comments he and his ex wife have made just make him sound petty and immature.

[ACO]

https://ekstrabladet.dk/underholdnin...rtraed/9447865

"When asked how she felt knowing her grandchildren felt ostracized, Queen Margrethe struggled to find words to convey the current family dynamic finally saying, “Well, we'll have to see how…you can…But I haven't seen it myself” before rushing inside."


This whole thing is just so unnecessarily messy. The Swedish family gave them the blueprint. It was so easy and now they in this pickle.

[SirGyamfi1]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

I don't think this is a good decision in the long term. IMHO the government of a country tends to want what was has been the king's privilege in the on-going move of the political power from the souvereign to the people the country's citizens have voted in.


Stripping titles off Royal offspring and allowing them to lead "normal careers" sounds good as an idea. But when the monarch does that to certain members of the family, who's to say that it should be stopped there? Why only Joachim's children? Because they are "just" the children of the "spare"? Then why keep the titles for the CP's children? These three yonger children will end up "unneeded" as well. Do they have to look forward to loose their titles (and thus part of the identity they grew up with) as well? And why not take the firstborn child of a direct-line heir out of the (now considered throughly unroyal) family and let the (untitled) wife of a direct heir raise the other kids while the heir's heir's heir is raised apart as a future monarch? There is only a tiny step from there to abolish the monarchy because who needs Royals that can be stripped off their tiltes at the monarch's whim in a political system that's based on the people's basic rights and laws protecting that?

I'm not even sure the queen can do so under European law....

If I was Joachim or one of his wifes, I would be fuming having an aunt like Benedikte, still running around as a princess of Denmark doing some public duties even though she is "only" a widowed German "princess" (name, not title) after all or another aunt who is treated as Her Majesty though she lived in exile for decades now while my children, a queen's grandchildren, were stripped of their titles being teenagers or young adults only and used to be who they are, since birth. I already can imagine what this will mean for the former princess-daughter of Joachim in her (probably posh) school in Paris! Poor girl. As she is not even a grevine in her own right but then just a Komtesse...



And the next step will be that the government decides on who's important in the family and who is not. And then... why is the monarch important?

That, IMHO is the fastest way to a democracy with no king or queen, but a voted in president (m/f). When even a monarch has no more respect for the Blood Royal of their family, who should have it? Why bow, courtsey or just show any form of reference to the head of a family that is not considerd "worthy" of the titles they were born with anymore? Even though they've done nothing? Where will end where this has been started? It's very good that there has never been a a need for gender discussions in Denmark after Margrethe's ascent to the throne and there wasn't any reason to talk race about the first sons of Prince Joachim yet. But when these things happen IMHO it's the first step towards abolishing the monarchy. Or the second step if you think about the Counts of Rosenberg and their father, the Arveprince.


It was okay with the Norwegian Royals, seeing as there was Marius already as a not-Royal family member before a Royal child was born, the the heir, Ingrid Alexandra and then Sverre, the spare. Who is a HH Prince of Norway still, isn't he, though he is only the grandson of the king?

And I can understand the wish of minor Royals not to be known as a part of the Royal House when they try to lead normal lifes (as if "normal lifes" are something you have to have when you were born into the upper echelons of society - it's more about what you can do in your life without the media coming after you...). But such a young girl and young boy as Joachim's younger children? Living in Paris, the capital of humility? The place where poor and rich are equal??? LOL! I bet when the former princess is having her first boyfriend this is exactly how she is presented in Ekstra or Billed Bladet: as "former princess of Denmark, now Komtesse...).
(And, coming back to the original topic: why are these kids of Joachim anything but normal Danish citizens? Why be a "Count" if a normal life is envisioned for them? Shouldn't they be just really normal citizens, maybe taking on normal names like Nicolai Joachimsson? Athena Mariedottir or even Cavallier?


If the family members of the monarch are citizens like you and me, that's fine. But why have a monarch after all? What makes this person so "good" that we accept them as heirs and later as the chef when they have only what they deny their family - the Blood Royal??

I don’t think Princess Benedikte is comparable in the situation because she never passed on titles to her children.

[JR76]

Joachim elaborates about how he understood the plans for the issue in this article by BT:
"On May 5, I was presented with a plan. That this whole thought about my children's identity should be taken from them when each of them turned 25. Athena turns 11 in January. And then I was given five days' notice as the decision was accelerated," says the prince.

"The Queen said yesterday that she thinks this will be the best for her grandchildren. What do you think about this?"
"I can say that my children are upset. My kids don't know which leg to stand on. What should they think about this? Why should their identity be removed? Why do they have to be punished in this way?' says the prince.

"Can you try to explain why this is so important to you?"
"I don't want to engage in speculation and mudslinging. I am telling the truth as it is. I was given five days notice. And the original plan that was presented to me was for this to happen on their 25th birthdays. And I asked to be allowed (to have a think and) come back with my proposal (on how to handle the issue) . And then suddenly it was to happen this New year."

https://www.bt.dk/royale/prins-joach...-paa-den-maade

Not long ago the Court commented on the reactions to the Queen's decision to BT:

"As the Queen announced yesterday, the decision has been a long time coming. We understand that there are many emotions at stake at the moment, but we hope that the Queen's wish to future-proof the royal house will be respected,' says the royal house's communications manager Lene Balleby to B.T.

https://www.bt.dk/royale/efter-prins...rer-kongehuset

[Prinsara]

I think Joachim and Alexandra sound like hurt people who were not given their courtesy of being involved in a decision that negatively affects their children unnecessarily and in the harshest and clumsiest manner possible.

I respected Queen Margrethe a lot more before yesterday, and I think she just shot herself in the foot. What the damage will be outside her own family, I don't know.

[tihkon2]

https://ekstrabladet.dk/underholdnin...rtraed/9447865

Joachim does not look happy in this video from a couple hours ago. The look he gives the reporter at the end, after she asks how he feels about his relationship with his mother right now......

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

On the contrary, for Henrik and Athena in particular, it is probably better to lose the title now while they are still too young to understand whether a title matters or not than wait until they are adults.

Just imagine yourself at that age in school. Then think of a posh school in Paris. Where the caretakers and teachers don't take much notice of Royal titles and even less of Royal styles. From the end of the Christmas holiday the girl who was known as "Athena Denmark" (as the SHSG have no family name) is now Athena Monpezat (which is not really a title in the French nobility and not in the Danish either apart from the very recent past). Yes, it doesn't seem to be much but in that microclimate??? I wouldn't wonder if the girl wants to change schools after that public disgrace on full view of the international media!!! "Your grandmother surely loves you..." "I think so, too, the former princess says sarcastically. "She just destroyed my public image and so, my life in Paris."

.

[ACO]

https://ekstrabladet.dk/underholdnin...skeden/9447963

"Countess Alexandra’s private secretary also says that it’s the Lord Chamberlain who informed Prince Joachim of the decision and that Nikolai & Felix have not been in contact with their grandmother since the announcement."

They all really need to communicate before this turns into full out resentment.

I agree with the idea of a slimmed down monarchy. It makes complete sense but the way this has been done just seemed wrong. What was the reason? Clearly there is more to the story because if not then... oy.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

I don't think this is a good decision in the long term. IMHO the government of a country tends to want what was has been the king's privilege in the on-going move of the political power from the souvereign to the people the country's citizens have voted in.

Stripping titles off Royal offspring and allowing them to lead "normal careers" sounds good as an idea. But when the monarch does that to certain members of the family, who's to say that it should be stopped there? Why only Joachim's children? Because they are "just" the children of the "spare"? Then why keep the titles for the CP's children? These three yonger children will end up "unneeded" as well. Do they have to look forward to loose their titles (and thus part of the identity they grew up with) as well? And why not take the firstborn child of a direct-line heir out of the (now considered throughly unroyal) family and let the (untitled) wife of a direct heir raise the other kids while the heir's heir's heir is raised apart as a future monarch? There is only a tiny step from there to abolish the monarchy because who needs Royals that can be stripped off their tiltes at the monarch's whim in a political system that's based on the people's basic rights and laws protecting that?

I'm not even sure the queen can do so under European law....

I don't think you need to worry that much. All other royal families who did this decades ago are still fine.

If I was Joachim or one of his wifes, I would be fuming having an aunt like Benedikte, still running around as a princess of Denmark doing some public duties even though she is "only" a widowed German "princess" (name, not title) after all or another aunt who is treated as Her Majesty though she lived in exile for decades now while my children, a queen's grandchildren, were stripped of their titles being teenagers or young adults only and used to be who they are, since birth. I already can imagine what this will mean for the former princess-daughter of Joachim in her (probably posh) school in Paris! Poor girl. As she is not even a grevine in her own right but then just a Komtesse...

You seem to miss that his aunts positions are comparable to his own. They are children of a monarch not grandchildren like his children. In addition, the married a foreign king or prince which regulates their children's titles. Had they married a commoner like he did twice, their children would have been untitled.

And the next step will be that the government decides on who's important in the family and who is not. And then... why is the monarch important?

That, IMHO is the fastest way to a democracy with no king or queen, but a voted in president (m/f). When even a monarch has no more respect for the Blood Royal of their family, who should have it? Why bow, courtsey or just show any form of reference to the head of a family that is not considerd "worthy" of the titles they were born with anymore? Even though they've done nothing? Where will end where this has been started? It's very good that there has never been a a need for gender discussions in Denmark after Margrethe's ascent to the throne and there wasn't any reason to talk race about the first sons of Prince Joachim yet. But when these things happen IMHO it's the first step towards abolishing the monarchy. Or the second step if you think about the Counts of Rosenberg and their father, the Arveprince.

The statement clearly stated that no changes are made in the line of succession, so, I don't see any reason how this decision would impact any of that. Note that these children were never royal highnesses and would most likely have lost their titles upon marriage most likely as the monarch could easily just not grant permission as a way of keeping the house organized, just like her father did before her. In that case, it might have been construed as a problem with the bride or groom while it would have been for a different reason.

It was okay with the Norwegian Royals, seeing as there was Marius already as a not-Royal family member before a Royal child was born, the the heir, Ingrid Alexandra and then Sverre, the spare. Who is a HH Prince of Norway still, isn't he, though he is only the grandson of the king?

He

Magnus might currently be the grandson of the king, he is also the son of the heir, so not comparable to Joachim's children at all. Personally, I don't like the distinction between siblings but apparently that's what they thought best after the issues with Märtha Louise.

And I can understand the wish of minor Royals not to be known as a part of the Royal House when they try to lead normal lifes (as if "normal lifes" are something you have to have when you were born into the upper echelons of society - it's more about what you can do in your life without the media coming after you...). But such a young girl and young boy as Joachim's younger children? Living in Paris, the capital of humility? The place where poor and rich are equal??? LOL! I bet when the former princess is having her first boyfriend this is exactly how she is presented in Ekstra or Billed Bladet: as "former princess of Denmark, now Komtesse...).
(And, coming back to the original topic: why are these kids of Joachim anything but normal Danish citizens? Why be a "Count" if a normal life is envisioned for them? Shouldn't they be just really normal citizens, maybe taking on normal names like Nicolai Joachimsson? Athena Mariedottir or even Cavallier?

If the family members of the monarch are citizens like you and me, that's fine. But why have a monarch after all? What makes this person so "good" that we accept them as heirs and later as the chef when they have only what they deny their family - the Blood Royal??

You seem to jump from one extreme to the other. Just like the generations before them (and consistent with for example the Dutch approach), they will use the title they have been given to honour their grandfather's heritage, which is greve/komtesse de Monpezat.

[SirGyamfi1]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

Just imagine yourself at that age in school. Then think of a posh school in Paris. Where the caretakers and teachers don't take much notice of Royal titles and even less of Royal styles. From the end of the Christmas holiday the girl who was known as "Athena Denmark" (as the SHSG have no family name) is now Athena Monpezat (which is not really a title in the French nobility and not in the Danish either apart from the very recent past). Yes, it doesn't seem to be much but in that microclimate??? I wouldn't wonder if the girl wants to change schools after that public disgrace on full view of the international media!!! "Your grandmother surely loves you..." "I think so, too, the former princess says sarcastically. "She just destroyed my public image and so, my life in Paris."

.

I don’t think it will turn out the way you think because children of this generation don’t care much for titles. Plus I highly doubt any of the students she will meet will care about that.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Sidacarri

I do think this was all necessary and probably should have happened long ago.

Prince Joachim needs to be an adult, he has known about this scince May and should have discussed this with his children. I title is just that, it doesn't make you a better person or more happy. You need to carve your own life and his children will be great people without being a prince or princess. That is what he should have told them. The comments he and his ex wife have made just make him sound petty and immature.

You are a grown-up in Australia and I hope the media will never take such an intense notice of you as they do of the kids of Joachim. But living in Paris loosing such a prestigious title when they are still so young is bad. Really bad. Poor kiddos.



Yes, viewed from the POV of a ruling monarch it was probably the right thing to do. But from the children??? It surely wasn't and I just think there should have been more thought about them. Especially as they are to meet their grandmother again. And who will explain the whole happenings when their own father is very much hurt, when their cousins are the "winners" and their mother might think it was because they are not noble from both sides? (I have no idea how Marie is thinking about this at all!!!) Joachim served his country as much as he could.And now his children are second-class citizens to his brother's. (And don't tell me he will think of all the Danes who are even less! He wasn't raised that way).

[Mirabel]

It may seem harsh, but the line must be drawn somewhere, sometime.

I think the reality is that the public dislikes having a lot of royal hangers-on; doesn't matter whether they get money from the taxpayers, or if they don't.

The Queen probably made the move solely for PR purposes.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Somebody

...What harm will it cause for the siblings to remain prince and princess for three more months? Indeed, it may be useful to have this period of time to update their ID cards and so on.

I don't mean to laugh but that last line almost made me spit out my morning coffee

[Prinsara]

Originally Posted by Mirabel

It may seem harsh, but the line must be drawn somewhere, sometime.

I think the reality is that the public dislikes having a lot of royal hangers-on; doesn't matter whether they get money from the taxpayers, or if they don't.

The Queen probably made the move solely for PR purposes.

The Danish monarchy and the Queen are as popular as anyone could possibly imagine. There was no pressing demand for this, and she possibly just negatively affected her PR — which is quite the difficult job.

[tihkon2]

Originally Posted by Mirabel

It may seem harsh, but the line must be drawn somewhere, sometime.

I think the reality is that the public dislikes having a lot of royal hangers-on; doesn't matter whether they get money from the taxpayers, or if they don't.

The Queen probably made the move solely for PR purposes.

Then she screwed it up dreadfully. Because either on her own initiative or by some sort of inexcusable error, this decision was released in the most stupid and inconsiderate way possible.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1

I don’t think it will turn out the way you think because children of this generation don’t care much for titles. Plus I highly doubt any of the students she will meet will care about that.

Yep, I would agree with you here. But not as a 10 yo in Paris. There, "precedence" is still something you know in posh circles. Even if you just "live" in the 17.arrondissement and go to a school there, there are schools and schools. I doubt Athena is going to a state school, rather an international school with lots of other girls from rich, noble or father's business or adminstrative background. It's a question of security after all. Can't have a "princess of Denmark" kidnapped from a local school. And while all those girls meet there, there must form some sort of nomenclatura. Yes, not necessarily about titles. But this will be an upheaval in her life so far. We have to see how Marie and Joachim will react to that.