New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Sionevar

Norway comes to mind, but it's only a difference in style, not title. Ingrid Alexandra is HRH, while her younger brother Sverre Magnus is only HH. And Sverre Magnus is a member of the Royal Family, but not a member of the Royal House, while Ingrid Alexandra is a member of both.

Sverre Magnus is a prince yes, but his HH status is only for international use, not domestically.

Originally Posted by Prinsara

I don't agree that Nikolai's career necessarily played a factor in this. He gave every appearance of working with QMII's full permission and being very conscious of his status and respectful of the monarchy. He is not Märtha Louise.

If QMII had had some issue with it, she would have said no, and Nikolai would have worked under a mononym or a professional name. Simple.

I think his career is an adjacent factor, at best.

I agree. Both Nikolai and Felix have pursued modeling with the approval of their grandmother and both have always behaved respectfully towards their status and the monarchy. I can't think of any scandals caused by the two of them. And no, before someone throws it back in my face I don't consider them pulling out of army training a failure.

[Prinsara]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

But I can't think what else, other than careers (not necessarily Nikolai's specifically), could be meant by the statement "In May 2016, it was also announced that His Royal Highness Prince Christian, as the only one of The Queen’s grandchildren, is expected to receive an annuity from the state as an adult. As a natural extension of this, Her Majesty has decided [...]".

Or are you thinking that the press release is being less than candid about the real factor(s) driving the change?

I'm saying that people are implying Nikolai was using his title to make money, in the same league as ML, the Sussexes, and even his Greek cousins to an extent, and perhaps he was. The difference is he apparently did it with the full permission of the head of state. (I also think Nikolai was much more modest, focused, and respectful about it.)

So I don't think Nikolai's career thus far has been a major factor in this decision.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by JR76

Sverre Magnus is a prince yes, but his HH status is only for international use, not domestically. I agree. Both Nikolai and Felix have pursued modeling with the approval of their grandmother, and both have always behaved respectfully towards their status and the monarchy. I can't think of any scandals caused by the two of them. And no, before someone throws it back in my face, I don't consider them pulling out of army training a failure.

Pulling out of the army training is not being a failure and shows how QMII accepted the choices of Joachim's children. Now if this was Frederick's heir doing that then we have a problem since he would be one day in military uniform and the army service will provide the future King a solid ground on character and self-discipline for the future.

For example, in Spain (my native country - but I've been in the USA most of my life), the King's niece from his older sister and 5th in line to the Throne, Victoria de Marichalar y Borbón, is now a breathtaking supermodel-to-be
https://www.hola.com/moda/2022092133...la-mundo-moda/

Imagine Victoria and her cousins Nicolai and Felix together on a runaway! She reminds me of a young Sofia Loren or Princess Caroline of Monaco.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Anscadar

That would be messy because the Greek side of the family had this title since Denmark authorized one of their princes to accept the Greek Crown in the 18th Century. There's a lot of history involved, and the Greek cousin's do not affect the Danes' current style, since is just part of their surname to be of Greece and Denmark.

This made me think of the Spanish Borbon's Cadet Branches in Italy using a location as part of the surname as Bourbon-Two Sicilies, Bourbon-Parma (now Grand Ducal in Luxembourg), etc.

I don't think the Greeks ever used "of Denmark" in their surname or territorial designation. It was/is simply a hidden subsidiary title, in the same manner that Prince Christian and his siblings have the title Count of Monpezat but do not use it.

For example, royal watchers like to refer to the UK's Prince Philip as former "Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark", but Philip himself used only "Prince of Greece" before his marriage.

Originally Posted by JR76

I agree.

Originally Posted by Prinsara

I'm saying that people are implying Nikolai was using his title to make money, in the same league as ML, the Sussexes, and even his Greek cousins to an extent, and perhaps he was. The difference is he apparently did it with the full permission of the head of state. (I also think Nikolai was much more modest and respectful about it.)

So I don't think Nikolai's career thus far has been a major factor in this decision.

I don't think I have implied that Prince Nikolai was being disrespectful or acting without permission in the past - I wrote in my first post in this thread today (see page 8) that "For many years, it seemed the Queen was moving in the opposite direction from other royal houses in Europe in allowing Prince Nikolai to use the title HH Prince to/of Denmark to promote his modeling career."

I am still curious: How do the two of you interpret the statement in the press release that "In May 2016, it was also announced that His Royal Highness Prince Christian, as the only one of The Queen’s grandchildren, is expected to receive an annuity from the state as an adult. As a natural extension of this, Her Majesty has decided [...]", given that you do not read it as being about commercial careers?

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

I thought titled ladies keep their titles for life and actually have various options to be known after marriage.

In practice, some women do continue to use their (former) titles after marriage, but according to the regulations (laws?) of the nobility, they lose it once married.

https://newsbreak.dk/komtesse/

The rule is followed by the Royal House: Even the af Rosenborg daughters of ex-prince Christian, who kept their surnames after marriage, are never styled as Countesses on guestlists issued by the Royal Court.

[tommy100]

I'm surprised at it, thought I think it is a good way forward for all RFs. I am surprised they didn't do like Sweden and allow them to use the title but not pass them on via marriage, to children etc.
Shocked at Alexandra's reaction. She may not be a member of the RF but I think it would only be fair, and tbh good manners to tell her before hand. Being able to have the whole family speak in favour of it as the Swedish RF did would cut any speculation of drama and upset. While Alexandra should perhaps have stayed quiet, its poor PR from the Danish Royal Court not to get her on side.

I do feel a bit for the children, when you look at all those big family get togethers the rest of the family all tend to have titles - Anne-Marie's children and grandchildren have titles and aren't even from a real reigning RF anymore and Benedikte's children have titles from a defunct German RF. Yet here are the grandchildren of the last current Queen Regnant in Europe having theirs taken away.

[Prinsara]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

I don't think I have implied that Prince Nikolai was being disrespectful or acting without permission in the past - I wrote in my first post in this thread today (see page 8) that "For many years, it seemed the Queen was moving in the opposite direction from other royal houses in Europe in allowing Prince Nikolai to use the title HH Prince to/of Denmark to promote his modeling career."

I am still curious: How do the two of you interpret the statement in the press release that "In May 2016, it was also announced that His Royal Highness Prince Christian, as the only one of The Queen’s grandchildren, is expected to receive an annuity from the state as an adult. As a natural extension of this, Her Majesty has decided [...]", given that you do not read it as being about commercial careers?

I don't think either I or JR76 made reference to your posts. That just seems to be the idea of a few people in this thread, not necessarily you.

If it is about careers, then why let Nikolai (and subsequently Felix) work as "prins" for however long it's been, at all? Surely the court sees longer term than that.

It may be about careers generally and in the future, but I don't think Nik and Felix have contributed to the decision thus far, like I said. For what it's worth, this might hurt Nikolai's career, not help him or give him more freedom. If he really had no idea this was coming, it's a bit unfair.

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

I don't think I have implied that Prince Nikolai was being disrespectful or acting without permission in the past - I wrote in my first post in this thread today (see page 8) that "For many years, it seemed the Queen was moving in the opposite direction from other royal houses in Europe in allowing Prince Nikolai to use the title HH Prince to/of Denmark to promote his modeling career."



I am still curious: How do the two of you interpret the statement in the press release that "In May 2016, it was also announced that His Royal Highness Prince Christian, as the only one of The Queen’s grandchildren, is expected to receive an annuity from the state as an adult. As a natural extension of this, Her Majesty has decided [...]", given that you do not read it as being about commercial careers?









In practice, some women do continue to use their (former) titles after marriage, but according to the regulations (laws?) of the nobility, they lose it once married.



https://newsbreak.dk/komtesse/



The rule is followed by the Royal House: Even the af Rosenborg daughters of ex-prince Christian, who kept their surnames after marriage, are never styled as Countesses on guestlists issued by the Royal Court.

I agreed with the statement that Nikolai has always behaved respectfully towards his royal heritage. Not that the future careers of the minor royals didn't play into this decision.

Regarding your question about the careers of the soon to be counts and countess a quote I heard when King Carl Gustav reformed his house in 2019 comes to mind - "we can't have a prince working in the shop around the corner". To have a royal title would limit the choice of career choices of Prince Joachim's children. It would also take some of the magic away from the Royal family if there were to many princes and princesses working everyday jobs out in the "real world".

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by iceflower

The Palace has released an update to the changes of 2008 today, September 28:


** kongehuset: Changes in titles and forms of address in the Royal Family **

Just to clarify, how should we cite Prince Joachim's children from January 1 2023 in English:
His Excellency Count Nikolai of Monpezat or His Excellency Nikolai Count of Monpezat?

[Erin9]

Well- it doesn’t appear this was handled well- based on Alexandra’s reaction. It certainly doesn’t appear to have been accepted. I haven’t seen anyone saying they’re okay with the decision.

That said- I don’t really care for the idea of striping titles from adults- or kids old enough to really get it. Unless the kids and/or parents want it- and see it as the best way forward. Seems rather cold to me. Alexandra’s statement mentioned loss of identity- I can see that.

At least when the Swedes did it- they were all too young to get it- and they still kept Prince/ess, as I recall. They still kept something, rather than losing it all- which may have made the decision go down better. Whether Carl Philip or Madeline totally agreed- IDK- but they accepted it enough to almost immediately announce their support. That hasn’t happened here.

[Muhler]

This becomes more and more odd!!

Countess Alexandra's secretary went on TV and repeated what has already been said, that the boys are shocked and feel left out. And that this came as a surprise.
Correction: Countess Alexandra's secretary earlier told BT on camera that the boys are shocked and feel left out. - It is not a second comment. (TV2 was not clear about using a BT video clip.)

QMII was also approached by the press.
And she said it was a thing she had been thinking about for a long time - and of course it was with the best interests of her grandchildren in mind.
When asked for a comment on Alexandra's reaction, she seemed a little taken aback, and claimed she hadn't seen or learned about that yet. - But "We must see how it works out."
(You'll find that clip on TV2 - among other places.)

- To me it suggests that QMII today, or whenever the decision was made, signed the papers and gave the go publish order to the press office. - But apparently without informing Joachim, Alexandra or the children.

- So was there a serious internal glitch in the communication within the family?
Did she think someone - Frederik or court employee - had or would somehow inform those involved?

Or is she losing her mental faculties?

Because even from an ordinary mortal like me it seems very disrespectful and certainly unnecessarily rude to make a decision and not inform those whom it affects.
While QMII can no doubt be just as thoughtless as anyone else, this is a pretty major one!

Of course the court will obey any order they get, presumably believing QMII herself would inform Joachim etc.

And was Frederik informed? Let alone involved when the decision was made?

We can't have a monarch who runs around taking irate decisions. And if that's the case, now what?!?

[Saragli]

Once again the DRF have walked straight into a PR disaster. Who is running their team?! I worry they rely too much on their personal popularity to smooth out the hiccups. All of this could have been easily avoided with a proper PR plan.

[Prinsara]

I'm pretty sure Daisy has not lost it. But something along the lines of palace communication has definitely broken.

Why on earth would she not speak to Joachim, Marie, Alexandra and offspring like the normal person she sometimes remembers she is?

Doesn't this kind of thing call for a family meeting?

[Erin9]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

I'm pretty sure Daisy has not lost it. But something along the lines of palace communication has definitely broken.

Why on earth would she not speak to Joachim, Marie, Alexandra and offspring like the normal person she sometimes remembers she is?

Doesn't this kind of thing call for a family meeting?

I don’t understand how something like this could happen without being absolutely certain everyone knows and at least gives them a chance to adjust to the news. This is TQ’s grandchildren. This is coming across like they just got blindsided.

Just in case- I hope Charles is taking notes.

[kalnel]

Here's the TV2 link, which is viewable in the United States: https://nyheder.tv2.dk/samfund/2022-...rer-dronningen

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by Muhler

(...) To me it suggests that QMII today, or whenever the decision was made, signed the papers and gave the go publish order to the press office. - But apparently without informing Joachim, Alexandra or the children.

- So was there a serious internal glitch in the communication within the family?
Did she think someone - Frederik or court employee - had or would somehow inform those involved?

Or is she losing her mental faculties?

Because even from an ordinary mortal like me it seems very disrespectful and certainly unnecessarily rude to make a decision and not inform those whom it affects.
While QMII can no doubt be just as thoughtless as anyone else, this is a pretty major one!

Of course the court will obey any order they get, presumably believing QMII herself would inform Joachim etc.

And was Frederik informed? Let alone involved when the decision was made?

We can't have a monarch who runs around taking irate decisions. And if that's the case, now what?!?

I think you're jumping to some pretty offensive conclusions there.

I think what is most likely to have happened is that Joachim and his family was informed about the decision but didn't agree with it. (Something I don't blame them). Exemplified by the fact that it wasn't, as you've mentioned before, a coordinated statement from everyone involved.

Alexandra's statement said that the decision came as a surprise. That doesn't necessarily mean it came as a surprise today and that they were informed at the same time as the rest of Denmark. Just that when they learned, they were surprised.

[Prinsara]

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

At least for these time-limited princes.

Let's hope there'll be less actual court drama than the play.

[polyesco]

I think its a good and brave choice. Maybe the timing is a bit off.
In previous interviews Nikolai has said that he likes that in the modeling world he is just Nikolai and not prince Nikolai. That he can stand on his own "merits".

Margrethe has never seem to be big on family gatherings so in her point of view, why consult the grandkids?. Not saying its right, but I can see that.

What is odd is that Joachim has not said anything. A quick statement. Letting the ex-wife speak on their behalf is just wrong. Of course she can speak out, but to speak on Joachim and Marie's behalf and take the fall out all on her. Bad form in my view.

[Moran]

What a PR mess! No coordination, Alexandra losing it - it looks like they weren't informed, no matter if this was the case.

I do think it won't help Nikolai's career - which makes it even more important to get everyone on board.

No doubt it was better for QMII to do it instead of leaving it to Frederik - but this bad PR took the "granny means well!" optics out of the equation.

[Muhler]

Archduchess Zelia,

While I freely admit you do have a point - and I hope so, because I would not like to see QMII go through a public mental deterioration - I was merely listing a number of options. Another you objected to was whether Joachim had been directly told to not say a word. Admittedly unlikely, but a possibility.

But just as other theories debated here, they are possible explanations of a very weird way of handling this issue.

And please refrain from calling other people's ideas or thoughts on the top of the head for offensive. - I'm not in the mood of having someone wagging a raised index finger in my face right now.

Unfortunately QMII is at an age where dementia has to be considered, not least in the light of what PH went through.

Originally Posted by polyesco

I think its a good and brave choice. Maybe the timing is a bit off.
In previous interviews Nikolai has said that he likes that in the modeling world he is just Nikolai and not prince Nikolai. That he can stand on his own "merits".

Margrethe has never seem to be big on family gatherings so in her point of view, why consult the grandkids?. Not saying its right, but I can see that.

What is odd is that Joachim has not said anything. A quick statement. Letting the ex-wife speak on their behalf is just wrong. Of course she can speak out, but to speak on Joachim and Marie's behalf and take the fall out all on her. Bad form in my view.

I'm also waiting to give a statement.
But his silence makes sense if he is sitting in France thinking: What on earth just happened?!?
For all we know he may be on the phone with Frederik, Alexandra whomever trying to figure out what's going on.
And if he indeed has not been informed he may be anything from hopping mad, to deeply hurt to trying to contact QMII - who is at the National Museum right now.

- One thing that does puzzle me is Alexandra's strong reaction.
If the decision was taken a while ago, it would have given her time to went her anger and protest. There is no need really to shout aloud in public now. It makes no difference and only embarrass the family.

I think every newspaper in DK is trying to get hold of Joachim right now to learn about his opinion. And if Alexandra went solo in her anger, he may be trying to work out a proper response with the rest of the DRF.
If that be the case, then Alexandra is the "bad guy" in this story.

[Prinsara]

Alex may have gone solo, but anger and shouts of protest aren't her style. She's ordinarily very controlled and has maintained a model relationship with the DRF for almost 20 years.

But she's very protective of her boys, and these are her kids you've just hurt. I'm pretty sure these are her real feelings, and not a ploy or a way to get around her ex.

...and if Alex is angry, I can only assume Jokke (who takes normal things a lot harder) may not be at a point where he wants to speak right now.