Members of the Royal Family and Line of Succession - Broadest Sense

[JessRulz]

Christian IX was known as the "father-in-law of Europe" because of the dynastic marriages of his children, which lead to the connections Denmark has to multiple royal houses today:

Daughter Princess Alexandra married Edward VII (Britain)
Daughter Princess Dagmar married Tsar Alexander III (Russia)
Son Prince Vilhelm became King George I of Greece, descendants can also be counted through great-great-granddaughter Princess Anne-Marie who married Constantine II (Greece)
Great-granddaughter Princess Anne of Bourbon-Parma, through son Prince Valdemar, became Queen Anne of Romania (Romania)
Grandson Prince Carl became King Haakon VII of Norway (Norway)
Great-granddaughter Princess Astrid of Sweden married Leopold III of the Belgians (Belgium)
Great-great-granddaughter Princess Josephine-Charlotte of Belgium, daughter of Princess Astrid (above), married Grand Duke Jean of Luxembourg (Luxembourg)
Great-great-granddaughter Princess Sophia of Greece married King Juan Carlos I of Spain (Spain)
Daughter Princess Thyra married the Crown Prince of Hanover (never became King because the Hanoverian throne was abolished before his reign) (Hanover)
Granddaughter Princess Alexandra of Hanover married Grand Duke Frederick Francis IV of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (Mecklenburg-Schwerin)
Granddaughter Princess Marie Louise of Hanover married Prince Maximilian of Baden (never became Grand Duke as the monarchy was abolished) (Baden)
Granddaughter Princess Louise married Prince Friedrich Georg of Schaumburg-Lippe (Schaumburg-Lippe)

As kalnel said, if these princesses had kept their rights to the Danish throne (particularly Christian IX's daughters) despite their marriages to the various Kings/Heirs to (at the time) reigning houses, in theory each of these houses, plus various German houses, could be in line for the throne (provided the King at the time did not impose conditions like Frederik IX did to Benedikte regarding her children) and the line of succession would be much longer than it is now.

[lyndaW]

Thank you, very interesting

[kalnel]

Exactly.

When you combine both men and women with "theoretical rights" to the Danish throne, several of the present-day scions would be connected through other links, too. For example, Queen Sophia, King Constantine, and Princess Irene would be heirs through their father's Greek line and/or their mother's descent from Thyra of Hanover (nee Denmark).

Similarly, in the Romanian royal house, the line could be through Queen Anne (as you point out) or through King Michael, whose mother was a granddaughter of George I of Greece.

The British throne, too. Elizabeth descends from Alexandra, while Philip descends from George I.

Again, talking hypothetically, one could argue that Queen Anne-Marie's children would have the strongest blood claim on the Danish throne possible, since three or their four grandparents are direct descendants of the Danish royal house. (I don't think Ingrid has any Danish roots, but I didn't research it.)

Prince Knud's children are about the only ones who would come close to such blood ties, since both Knud and Caroline-Mathilde were Danish royals by birth.

Originally Posted by JessRulz

Christian IX was known as the "father-in-law of Europe" because of the dynastic marriages of his children, which lead to the connections Denmark has to multiple royal houses today:

Daughter Princess Alexandra married Edward VII (Britain)
Daughter Princess Dagmar married Tsar Alexander III (Russia)
Son Prince Vilhelm became King George I of Greece, descendants can also be counted through great-great-granddaughter Princess Anne-Marie who married Constantine II (Greece)
Great-granddaughter Princess Anne of Bourbon-Parma, through son Prince Valdemar, became Queen Anne of Romania (Romania)
Grandson Prince Carl became King Haakon VII of Norway (Norway)
Great-granddaughter Princess Astrid of Sweden married Leopold III of the Belgians (Belgium)
Great-great-granddaughter Princess Josephine-Charlotte of Belgium, daughter of Princess Astrid (above), married Grand Duke Jean of Luxembourg (Luxembourg)
Great-great-granddaughter Princess Sophia of Greece married King Juan Carlos I of Spain (Spain)
Daughter Princess Thyra married the Crown Prince of Hanover (never became King because the Hanoverian throne was abolished before his reign) (Hanover)
Granddaughter Princess Alexandra of Hanover married Grand Duke Frederick Francis IV of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (Mecklenburg-Schwerin)
Granddaughter Princess Marie Louise of Hanover married Prince Maximilian of Baden (never became Grand Duke as the monarchy was abolished) (Baden)
Granddaughter Princess Louise married Prince Friedrich Georg of Schaumburg-Lippe (Schaumburg-Lippe)

As kalnel said, if these princesses had kept their rights to the Danish throne (particularly Christian IX's daughters) despite their marriages to the various Kings/Heirs to (at the time) reigning houses, in theory each of these houses, plus various German houses, could be in line for the throne (provided the King at the time did not impose conditions like Frederik IX did to Benedikte regarding her children) and the line of succession would be much longer than it is now.

Forgot to add mention another obvious "multiple descendant": King Harald of Norway and his sisters.

Their father was a Danish prince by birth and the son of two Christian IX grandchildren, and their mother was a granddaughter of Frederick VIII.

[Lumutqueen]

I'm glad the succesion is limited. Else it would be quite a lot bigger.

[kbk]

I just wonder if the Royal line of Prince Axel was continued, would his descendants remain in the line of succession? For example, if Prince Georg Valdemar and Anne Bowes-Lyon had children or Prince Flemming married dynastically and produced the next generation of princes and princesses of Denmark.

[JessRulz]

In theory, going along with the above discussion, yes.

But in 1953, with the change in the Act of Succession to allow females to succeed the throne, the succession was limited to descendants of Christian X, Prince Axel's first cousin. So any other descendants of Frederik VIII and Christian IX (that are not also descended also from Christian X) are not in line for the throne.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Well, Count Ingolf would be king now and since he has no children, the throne would go to the nearest male relative. I.e. Ingolf's nephew Ludwig.

I see, so Denmark did not have salic law (until 1953). Instead 'agnatic primogeniture' was applied. I am not sure how that works with 'female line male descendents' but I would think that as long as male-line descendents of previous kings are available they would be higher up in the line of succession than male members by female line.

So, why would Ludwig (assuming he is a grandson of Christian by one of Christian's daughter) be the crown prince instead of Philip Oluf Axel Ulrik, Count of Rosenborg (b. 1986).

Philip is the closest and most senior male line descendent of Ingolf that I could find; he is the son of count Ulrik of Rosenborg (b. 1950), who is the son of count Oluf of Rosenborg (formerly prince Oluf of Denmark) (1923 - 1990); who is a son of prince Harald of Denmark (1876 - 1949); the third son of king Frederick VII - and therefore the younger brother of king Christian X (1st son) of Denmark and king Haakon VII of Norway (2nd son).

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Somebody

I see, so Denmark did not have salic law (until 1953). Instead 'agnatic primogeniture' was applied. I am not sure how that works with 'female line male descendents' but I would think that as long as male-line descendents of previous kings are available they would be higher up in the line of succession than male members by female line.

So, why would Ludwig (assuming he is a grandson of Christian by one of Christian's daughter) be the crown prince instead of Philip Oluf Axel Ulrik, Count of Rosenborg (b. 1986).

Philip is the closest and most senior male line descendent of Ingolf that I could find; he is the son of count Ulrik of Rosenborg (b. 1950), who is the son of count Oluf of Rosenborg (formerly prince Oluf of Denmark) (1923 - 1990); who is a son of prince Harald of Denmark (1876 - 1949); the third son of king Frederick VII - and therefore the younger brother of king Christian X (1st son) of Denmark and king Haakon VII of Norway (2nd son).

It is claimed in the tv-series and articles that Ludwig would now be the heir.
But to be honest, I haven't checked.
For the very reason that the programme is highly hypothetical - and I don't like Ludwig, don't care about him either.

I just did a bit of checking. You are no doubt right. The premises of the series, that Ludwig could be the heir now, is somewhat flawed to put it kindly.
https://www.bt.dk/royale/kritik-af-d...e-blevet-konge
He could have, if the Law of Succession (as you have mentioned) had been changed later on, and just as importantly if we dismiss his mother Camilla's older twin sister and her son.
- No wonder the series has been labelled: "Majestic nonsense."

The editor of the series, Lasse Bjørch, has explained that streamers for such series needs to be "catchy" hence the premises that Ludwig could be the heir today.

- In other words, the series is even less serious than my first impression.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Muhler

It is claimed in the tv-series and articles that Ludwig would now be the heir.
But to be honest, I haven't checked.
For the very reason that the programme is highly hypothetical - and I don't like Ludwig, don't care about him either.

I just did a bit of checking. You are no doubt right. The premises of the series, that Ludwig could be the heir now, is somewhat flawed to put it kindly.
https://www.bt.dk/royale/kritik-af-d...e-blevet-konge
He could have, if the Law of Succession (as you have mentioned) had been changed later on, and just as importantly if we dismiss his mother Camilla's older twin sister and her son.
- No wonder the series has been labelled: "Majestic nonsense."

The editor of the series, Lasse Bjørch, has explained that streamers for such series needs to be "catchy" hence the premises that Ludwig could be the heir today.

- In other words, the series is even less serious than my first impression.

Thanks, I didn't have an overview of count Christian's descendants. So yes, if we would assume that the change in succession law would have taken place in 1980 or 1990 or so (like Sweden and Norway) instead of in 1953 (and all marriage had been approved), Ingolf would be king and Christian's eldest daughter would be the heir to the throne (as the heir presumptive to her uncle); not the second child of his second daughter. He would only be 6th (or 7th - see below: Oscar) in line to the throne.

So, in that scenario we would have:
Prince Christian & Princess Anne Dorte
1. Crown princess Josephine (1972) [& prince Thomas, born Thomas Christian Schmidt (married: 1998 - 2014)]
2. Prince Julius (2001)
3. Princess Clara (2004)
Oscar (2016) by Kenneth Schmidt (had she been a crown princess; they most likely would have married before the birth)
4. Princess Camilla (1972) [& Mikael Rosanes (married: 1995 - 2016)] & Ivan Ottesen (married: 2018)
5. Anastasia (1997)
6. Ludwig (2000)
7. Leopold (2005)
8. Theodor (2008)
9. Princess Feodora (1975) [& Eric Hervé Patrice Patte (married; 2004 - 2005)] & Morten Rønnow (married: 2008 - are they still together? I seem to remember all three sisters divorced within a few years or each other but could be mistaken)
10. Caroline-Mathilde (2009)
11. Princess Margrethe (1940)
12. Etc.

[Tatiana Maria]

Wouldn't the husbands and children of the younger daughters also be Princes and Princesses in this scenario, given that Princess Benedikte's husband was offered a princely title if he would agree to move to Denmark?

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Wouldn't the husbands and children of the younger daughters also be Princes and Princesses in this scenario, given that Princess Benedikte's husband was offered a princely title if he would agree to move to Denmark?

Probably - although Richard himself already was a prince of SWB by birth; I took the other Scandinavian royal families as example (in accordance with the timing of the change); neither Ari Behn nor Chris O'Neill is a prince.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Probably - although Richard himself already was a prince of SWB by birth; I took the other Scandinavian royal families as example (in accordance with the timing of the change); neither Ari Behn nor Chris O'Neill is a prince.

I see what you mean. On the other hand, Chris O'Neill's situation is similar to Richard in that he would have become a prince had he agreed to relocate to Sweden (and in his case, renounce his commercial ventures). As for the Norwegian royal family, I am not sure the Danes would follow their example as the former is much more slimmed down. In Norway the king's daughter is not a member of the Royal House and her children are untitled, whereas in Denmark not only is the queen's younger son a member of the Royal House but so are his children.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

I see what you mean. On the other hand, Chris O'Neill's situation is similar to Richard in that he would have become a prince had he agreed to relocate to Sweden (and in his case, renounce his commercial ventures). As for the Norwegian royal family, I am not sure the Danes would follow their example as the former is much more slimmed down. In Norway the king's daughter is not a member of the Royal House and her children are untitled, whereas in Denmark not only is the queen's younger son a member of the Royal House but so are his children.

Chris was offered to take up the ducal titles of his wife not to become a prince. Jonas was planning to do so but Chris indeed decided differently.

Joachim's children are indeed members of the royal house and titled as their father is titled and the titles pass on in male-line. There isn't really a comparable situation for Denmark as of yet (Anne Marie married a foreign king and therefore seized to be a formal member of the Danish royal family - and Benedikte remained a member but her children didn't - do we know what their titles would have been had they decided to live in Denmark? Still prince(ss) of S-W-B or of Denmark?

So, Sweden is the closest comparison we have imo. And as the Danes don't do ducal titles, my guess would be no princely titles for husbands of princesses (at least yet - when they got married in the late 90s and early 2000s). We will find out how they will approach this in the future when Isabella and Josephine are getting married.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Chris was offered to take up the ducal titles of his wife not to become a prince. [...]

Do you have a source for this? I am aware of the announcement regarding Jonas Bergström, but official spokespersons and Chris O'Neill himself (in an interview in 2018) have talked of his refusal to become a prince.

Originally Posted by Somebody

Joachim's children are indeed members of the royal house and titled as their father is titled and the titles pass on in male-line. There isn't really a comparable situation for Denmark as of yet (Anne Marie married a foreign king and therefore seized to be a formal member of the Danish royal family - and Benedikte remained a member but her children didn't - do we know what their titles would have been had they decided to live in Denmark? Still prince(ss) of S-W-B or of Denmark?

At least we know that her husband could have become a Prince of Denmark, as he has discussed his reasons for refusing:

About his rejection of a Danish princely title:

"I never regretted, and I never took the proposal seriously. Neither did I take it seriously when it was suggested from Danish quarters that I should give up Berleburg and settle in Denmark. I spat out a ‘No’ as fast as I could."

[gerry]

A friend has moved to northern Ontario and today followed a bike trail on land formerly owned by Canadian lumber baron (not titled, merely moneyed!) JR Booth. This name rang a royal bell in my memory and yes, indeed had Booth's daughter Lois married a Prince Erik of Denmark. Attached is the story,but I wonder where this prince who became a California chicken farmer (an idea for Meghan Sussex?) fits into the Danish royal family tree. Muhler, here is your cue!
https://todayinottawashistory.wordpr...es-lois-booth/

[Muhler]

What a commotion!

Great reporting, it's like being there in person.

Here is a photo of Count Erik of Rosenborg: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Rosenborg.jpg

And the estate they lived in in DK, Bjergbygård: https://www.danskeherregaarde.dk/upl...011-070_bo.jpg

The article says she lived there with her new husband after divorcing Count Erik. Count Erik is listed as the owner of the estate from 1931-42. (The estate BTW is from 1230.) It would have been extremely generous of Count Erik to allow his ex-wife and her new husband, with whom she clearly had a relationship with prior to the divorce, to live there.
Even though Count Erik was son of one of the most colorful characters within the DRF for the past 200 years, Princess Marie of Orleans, and may have inherited his parents liberal views, that's probably taking it a bit far.

As for Bjergbygård. The name indicates that Count Erik was not considered a member of the DRF when he took over in 1931, otherwise the name would have been Bjergbygård Slot. (Slot in DK is used about estates, palaces and castles affiliated with the DRF.)
But times were hard during WWII, and it's interesting seeing who took over the estate, Fritz Løvenskiold. The Løvenskiold family is a wealthy, predominantly Norwegian noble family, who owned (owns?) several estates in DK. They took over Bjergbygård in 1942, and sold it in 1946. I.e. as soon as possible after WWII. - To me that suggests that Count Erik perhaps did a Schackenborg.

But as to Count Erik's place in the family tree: Haven't really checked but it must be a very distant branch by now. After all he ceased being a member of the DRF when he married Frances Lois Booth. But since several members of the DRF were present at the marriage and he was allowed to keep his title as prince and HH, the connection was obviously not frowned upon.

[Blog Real]

Are Princess Benedikte's sons in the line of succession?

[An Ard Ri]

No as far as I'm aware Princess Benedikte’s children are not in the line of succession as they don't reside in Denmark.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Blog Real

Are Princess Benedikte's sons in the line of succession?

The official position is that they are not in the line of succession because they were not raised in Denmark.


Interestingly, the Danish Act of Sucession, unlike its Swedish counterpart, does not contain any clause, I think, that explicitly requires that people in the line of succession be raised in the country. However, again the official position is that King Frederik IX's consent to Princess Benedikte's marriage included a condition that her children be raised in Denmark to retain their succession rights.


Whereas marriages without the King's consent imply loss of succession rights under the Act of Succession, it is unclear whether the King has the constitutional power to give "conditional consent" or to impose additional requirements, e.g. on the way children from the marriage are raised, as a condition for the issue of the marriage and their respective descendants to retain succession rights. As such, a minority of scholars dispute the exclusion of Princess Benedikte's descendants, but I guess the controversy is mostly irrelevant in practice since they would be way down in the line of succession anyway. One practical effect for them though is that they are deprived of the title/style of Prince/Princess of Denmark.


The situation of the offspring from Queen Anne Marie's marriage is less controversial since they are all (again implicitly) excluded, including Anne Marie herself, for being Greek Orthodox whereas the Danish constitution requires that the King be a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

The situation of the offspring from Queen Anne Marie's marriage is less controversial since they are all (again implicitly) excluded, including Anne Marie herself, for being Greek Orthodox whereas the Danish constitution requires that the King be a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church.

It the religion Issue only a requirement since 1953. Before that the descendants of King George I. of Greece where in the danish line of sueccsion but after the descendants of his younger brother Valdemar.