Members of the Royal Family and Line of Succession - Broadest Sense

[Philippe Egalite']

Originally Posted by MargreteI

Translation of the link given, which is a §20 question posed in parliament to the Minister of Justice :

Spm. nr. S 3937

Anne Baastrup (SF/Socialistic Peoples Party, a non-royal republican party):

»Can the Minister confirm that (King) Konstantin has a danish passport, and if so, how he got it ?«

Reason for raising the question :
We refer to the fact that Konstantin is not a danish citizen and the fact that his wife has renounced her claim to the throne, as to why Konstantin is not a member of the Royal Family.

Answer (19/9 01)

Minister of Justice (Frank Jensen):

The Ministry of Justice has in order to answer the question requested the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for a statement.

When this statement is present i will revert to this matter.

Supplementing answer (12/10 01)

Minister of Justice (Frank Jensen):

The Ministry of Justice has requested a statement from the Ministry of Justice to be used in answering this question.

It appear from the statement, that Ministry of Foreign Affairs, based on Directions for the Foreign Service, has complied with a request to issue diplomat passports to His Majesty King Konstantin, since members of the Greek Royal Family, in direct liniar line descrend from King Cristian IX and Queen Louise, which means they are decrendants of King George I (born Prince Vilhelm to Denmark), carries the title Prince, respectively Princess, of Greece and Denmark.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all, I am most grateful for your translation of the document.
Second, I would like to apologize for confusing you by calling, in the previous post, the af Danmark courtesy title. I should have said, instead, to avoid confusion that prince or princess af Danmark has no sunbstantive meaning or legal bearing per se.
I do appreciate that, socially, the term courtesy is understood by most people as referring to use of a non-existent title as a polite gesture, but in peerage parlance [see Wikipedia], courtesy title is used in distinction from, and in contrast to, substantive title. For example, the first son of a duke carries usually the title of marquess which is real but is called a courtesy title by the Biritish Peerage because the bearer holds no position in the House of Lords until the death of his father. The term courtesy title is also used in reference to titles acquired through marriage, as in the cases of commoners marrying princes, dukes etc.and holding no titles in their own rights.
Example: Crown Princess of Sweden is a sunbstantive title, while Crown Princess of Belgium is not.

The question asked by the MP was technical and specifically why King Constantine got a Danish passport and, by implication, why was he granted Danish citizenship. And the Minister gave the correct answer, which is exactly what I discussed in my preceding post. Former Constantine was born with rights of succession to the Danish Throne, thus a prince til Danmark (1940) and ipso facto a Dane. As of the enactment date of the 1953 Succession Act, he ceased to have such rights and ceased to be a prince til Danmark, but remains a Dane and became a prince af Danmark.

Originally Posted by MargreteI

This also explain why all King Konstantins children, as well as his grandchildren after Pavlos are indeed still Princess of Denmark. Marie Chantal however is not, even if married to Pavlos, since she is not a decrendants of George I. Alexias kids arent eighter since a Princess can not pass her title to
her children.

Logically, once a father is a Dane and holds Danish passport, his children should also have the same privileges.
I am not sure, however, whether the prince af Danmark title is inheritable. My personal guess would be that it isn't but I may be utterly wrong. The prince af Danmark title was extended apparently only to those who were holding a til Danmark rank and title when the Act came into effect and logically it should be an ad personam title. Perhaps, it would be interesting if you had the time to research and tell us about it.

Originally Posted by MargreteI

It is not coursey only. It is indeed a real title founded in historic reaons. How much it is actually worth in a whole other thing, but real it is.

I agree. Please see above.

Originally Posted by MargreteI

You misunderstand the Succession Act and its meaning. It does not regulate who belongs to the Royal Family or not. Neighter does it regulate titles. It only regulates who can take on the throne and who can not.

I agree completely that the 1953 Succession Act only regulates succession to the throne and it does not regulate rank and titles. However, in Denmark, those members who lose their rights to the throne, lose also their rank and title.
Example #1: HRH Prince Knud's sons, born princes [now Counts Rosenborg] Ingolf and Christian, lost their right of succession upon their marriage without permission by the monarch and automatically ceased to be princes [either til or af Dankark] and should not be referred to as princes except in a historical sense and for the period of their lives up until their marriage. However, their sister, Elisabeth continues to be a dynast [8th in the Order of Succession] and keeps the highest rank of nobility [princess], her title [princess] and style [her Higness].
Example #2: Princess Anne-Marie of Denmark, upon marrying a foreign ruling dynast in 1964, lost her succession rights, by decision of her father and King and she is no more a princess til Danmark.
Indeed, it is quite significant and important that the passport to King Constantine was not issued on the grounds of his being the husband of Anne-Marie but because of his descent from King Christian IX.

Originally Posted by MargreteI

True that Konstantin title changed from "to Denmark" to "of Denmark" after the 1953 act, but that was a side effect. The succession Act is only like 15 linies or something. Its very short.

I appreciate that you agree on that.

Originally Posted by MargreteI

Think about it. The current crownprincess is also "only" Crownprincess of Denmark, but she is indeed a part of the Royal Family - it is not courtsey only. She is the future Queen.


.

Of course she is real. The af Danamark in her case implies only that she is not a princess in her own rights or she holds no substantive position in her own rights. However her title is real and she has full legal rights because she holds what is called "a life estate in her husband's dignity".
Example #1: Their Royal Highnesses Victoria, Mary, Maxima, Mathilde, Letizia are Crown Princesses but only Victoria is constitutionally relevant and receives precedence as such because, one day, she will become a sovereign queen. The others will become queen consorts but never monarchs.
Example #2: Formerly HRH Princess Alexandra, became HH as soon as she took divorce and ceased to be a princess upon her remarriage.

I would like to thank you again for an excellent discussion.

[Next Star]

Originally Posted by Philippe Egalite'

As the word primogeniture implies (first born), the first-born child, irrespective of sex inherits wealth, estate, throne or other office or rank or title. Absolute Primogeniture is now applied in Sweden (since 1980), Netherlands (since 1983), Norway (since 1990) and Belgium (since 1991).

There are also other types of primogeniture:
1. Agnatic Primogeniture. Inheritance according to seniority of birth, to the total exclusion of females (Salic law). For example, this was the case in Denmark until 1953. During the 19th century, most monarchies in Europe practised this law of succession, but is now extinct. This was the reason, in fact, that Luxembourg split from The Netherlands.

2. Cognatic Primogeniture. Male-preference primogeniture, where a younger brother takes over an older sister. A female, however, can still inherit the throne, if she has NO living brothers or deceased brothers with surviving children. This system applies still in Great Britain, Spain, Denmark (since 1953) and was also the case in Sweden until 1980. In Sweden, prince Carl Philip, although younger than princess Victoria, was crown prince for a short while. But the Swedish government and parliament changed the Rule to Absolute Primogeniture, thus allowing the first-born, princess Victoria to become crown princess.

3. Agnatic Cognatic Primogeniture. Females can inherit only if all eligible males are extinct. Example, the daughter of a sovereign may inherit the throne, if she has no living brothers or deceased brothers with son(s) and no living brothers or sons of brothers of her father are available either. This system is currently in effect in Luxembourg.

Your incorrect about primogenture in the dictionary primogenture is stated that the eldest son inherits the estate,properties, or titles from the late previous holder or monarch.

[acdc1]

On this 20/20 (American news show) feature, they are talking about the happiest country in the world- Denmark. They mention a young fellow named Joseph who is a carpenter's apprentice but is also a prince- he is a great-great grandson of a Danish king- they didn't say which one, though. Does he actually hold the title of prince?

YouTube - Denmark happiest place on earth

[Fashionista100]

He is not royalty. I believe he is most likely the son of a count or such. Generally, the only Prince and Princesses in Denmark are in the Royal House. He probably is the decendant of a Danish King, but that does not make him a prince.

[EmpressRouge]

Hmmm...that is a mystery. I agree w/ Fashionista100 and think he's probably not entitled to call himself "Prince." Maybe someone might recognize that painting they showed? My best guess is he's a descendant of Prince Valdemar, youngest son of Christian IX. The guy in the bust and portrait looks like Christian. Christian IX of Denmark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also, they mention he's related to the Houses of France and Spain, i.e. Bourbon, and Valdemar's wife was a Bourbon, Marie of Orleans.

[Henrik]

I think I have found the young man in the Parma files on http://pages.prodigy.net/ptheroff/gotha/parma.html:

19f) René Charles Maria Joseph (Schwarzau 17 Oct 1894-Hellerup 30 Jul 1962); m.Copenhagen 9 Jun 1921 Margrethe Pss of Denmark (Bernstorff 17 Sep 1895- Brodrehoj 18 Sep 1992)

1g) Jacques Maria Antoine Robert Waldemar Charles Felix Sixte Ansgar (Longwy, France 9 Jun 1922-nr Roskilde 5 Nov 1964); m.Ledreborg 9 Jun 1947 Birgitte Komtesse af Holstein-Ledreborg (b.Ledreborg 29 Jun 1922)

1h) Philipp Georg Karl Valdemar René Joseph Marie (b.Copenhagen 22 Jan 1949); m.Ledreborg 5 May 1979 Annette Smith (b.Koge, Seeland 24 Apr 1955)

1i) Jacques Carl Christian Marie (b.Roskilde 3 Jan 1986)

2i) Joseph Axel Alain Eric Marie (b.Roskilde 6 Jun 1989)

Source: Paul Theroff's Royal Genealogy Site

This Joseph is a prince of Bourbon-Parma and he indeed is a descendant of prince Valdemar of Denmark. His father's mother is a countess of Holstein-Ledreborg from Ledreborg Manor, the interview is filmed in the park at Ledreborg.

[Archduchess Zelia]

Now it is:

1. H.R.H Crownprince Frederik André Henrik Christian
2. H.R.H Prince Christian Valdemar Henri John
3. H.R.H Princess Isabella Henrietta Ingrid Margrethe
4. H.R.H Prince Joachim Holger Valdemar Christian
5. H.R.H Prince Nikolai William Alexander Frederik
6. H.R.H Prince Felix Henrik Valdemar Christian
7. H.R.H the Little Prince (son of H.R.H Prince Joachim and H.R.H Princess Marie)
8. H.R.H Princess Benedikte Astrid Ingeborg Ingrid
9. H.R.H Princess Elisabeth Caroline-Mathilde Alexandrine Helena Olga Thyra Feodora Estrid Margarethe Désirée

[MAfan]

What about Queen Anne Marie of Greece and King Konstantinos? They still are Princes of Denmark...

[amedea]

Why princess Elisabeth come before princess Benedikte's children?

[MAfan]

Because the children of Benedikte are not in the line of succession; when Benedikte married, King Frederik IX stated that her children would have been in the LoS only if raised in Denmark; but since they were raised in Germany, they don't have rights to the Danish Throne.

[jonnydep]

as princess anne marie had married a foreign ruler, king frederick IX had decreed that her and her issue had no succession rights to the throne.

as for the title and style of prince (ss) of denmark -this denotes those who are genelogically part of the danish royal house (via male descent from king christian IX ).
however those who are entitled to succeed to the throne of denmark, are stlyed prince (ss) to denmark (this distinction is not often made clear in english).

as for the children of princess benedikte, frederick IX, had also decreed that they was to be brought up in denmark to be able to have rights to succeed to the danish throne. however this condition was not met, so her children has lost the rights of succession........

i hope this clears things up for you amedea ?

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by MAfan

What about Queen Anne Marie of Greece and King Konstantinos? They still are Princes of Denmark...

Well I don't know, but I think that it goes back to King Georg I, or ... Just a guess (:

[jonnydep]

Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia

Well I don't know, but I think that it goes back to King Georg I, or ... Just a guess (:

yes, you are correct, king george I of greece was born prince william of denmark, a son of king christian IX of denmark.
so as princess anne marie's husband ex king constantine II of greece, is a direct male descendant of king george I, the couples children are therefore styled prince (ss) of denmark, which as i have mentioned adove denotes that they are genelogically part of the danish royal house. but none of them have any rights to succession to the danish throne via both parents.........

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by jonnydep1

yes, you are correct, king george I of greece was born prince william of denmark, a son of king christian IX of denmark.
so as princess anne marie's husband ex king constantine II of greece, is a direct male descendant of king george I, the couples children are therefore styled prince (ss) of denmark, which as i have mentioned adove denotes that they are genelogically part of the danish royal house. but none of them have any rights to succession to the danish throne via both parents.........

Okay (: That was also what I thought

[dazzling]

Here is an article which says that prince Joachim & Princess Maries son Prince Henrik with be listed officially as officially as heir to the throne on Wednesday

Original article

[Madame Royale]

Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia

Now it is:

1. H.R.H Crownprince Frederik André Henrik Christian
2. H.R.H Prince Christian Valdemar Henri John
3. H.R.H Princess Isabella Henrietta Ingrid Margrethe
4. H.R.H Prince Joachim Holger Valdemar Christian
5. H.R.H Prince Nikolai William Alexander Frederik
6. H.R.H Prince Felix Henrik Valdemar Christian
7. H.R.H the Little Prince (son of H.R.H Prince Joachim and H.R.H Princess Marie)
8. H.R.H Princess Benedikte Astrid Ingeborg Ingrid
9. H.R.H Princess Elisabeth Caroline-Mathilde Alexandrine Helena Olga Thyra Feodora Estrid Margarethe Désirée

Nikolai, Felix, Henrik and Elizabeth are not Royal Highnesses. They are only accorded the style of His or Her Highness.

[NotAPretender]

Originally Posted by MAfan

What about Queen Anne Marie of Greece and King Konstantinos? They still are Princes of Denmark...

Because Queen Anne Marie married a reigning dynast - King Constantine; doing so, she excluded her children from any claim to the throne of Denmark.

Princess Benedikt married a non reigning dynast; her children could have been dynasts had they met certain criteria, but they didn't.

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by MAfan

What about Queen Anne Marie of Greece and King Konstantinos? They still are Princes of Denmark...

Queen Margrethe II's youngest sister, Anne Marie, married King Constantine II of Greece in 1964. In view of the fact that she was marrying a foreign ruler, King Frederick IX decided that neither Anne Marie nor her children would have any right to the Danish throne. When the Queen's other sister, Princess Benedikte, married Prince Richard of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg in 1968, King Frederick IX decreed that her children would need to be raised in Denmark in order to have succession rights. Since the condition was not met, Princess Benedikte's three children do not have any right to the Danish throne. It is unclear (and probably irrelevant) whether her grandchildren and further issue will have succession rights if raised in Denmark.

1. HRH The Crown Prince
2. HRH Prince Christian of Denmark
3. HRH Princess Isabella of Denmark
4. HRH Prince Joachim of Denmark
5. HH Prince Nikolai of Denmark
6. HH Prince Felix of Denmark
7. HH Prince Henrik of Denmark
8. HRH Princess Benedikte of Denmark
9. HH Princess Elisabeth of Denmark

[kalnel]

Originally Posted by NotAPretender

Because Queen Anne Marie married a reigning dynast - King Constantine; doing so, she excluded her children from any claim to the throne of Denmark.

Princess Benedikt married a non reigning dynast; her children could have been dynasts had they met certain criteria, but they didn't.

It's interesting to think that if Danish princesses who married into reigning families had retained their rights since Christian IX, the British, Russian, Greek, Romanian, Norwegian, Belgian, Luxembourg, Spanish, Hanover, Mecklenberg-Schwerin, Baden, and Schaumburg-Lippe families (and more) would all be in the line of succession today. (In theory, of course...)

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by kalnel

It's interesting to think that if Danish princesses who married into reigning families had retained their rights since Christian IX, the British, Russian, Greek, Romanian, Norwegian, Belgian, Luxembourg, Spanish, Hanover, Mecklenberg-Schwerin, Baden, and Schaumburg-Lippe families (and more) would all be in the line of succession today. (In theory, of course...)

I count only British, Norwegian, Greece.