Herlufsholm Boarding & Day School - Incidents and Reactions of the Royal Family

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Very close friends of M&F, that were at Isabella's confirmation have gone out condemning bullying at the school. Even though they emphasize that they themselves nor their children have personally experienced bullying.

Originally Posted by Muhler

Today a number of parents have come out in defense of the school, claiming it's a good school and that their children have never suffered any bullying.

Would it not be more in their interest and in the interest of their children to say that their children have never participated or turned a blind eye to any bullying?

Likewise, in regards to the monarchy and from the little I know of Danish society, I would think that, as many others have stated, it would be the most damaging if Christian, Nikolai, etc. were alleged to be perpetrators of bullying. In comparison, while (hypothetically) being one of the bullying victims would be unpleasant for the royal princes and princesses, I would not expect it to necessarily damage their reputations, and it might even attract sympathy for them from the public.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Izzie

Interesting. The issue of wanting all boarding schools looked into could be to put them on notice (obviously) but also maybe to have those schools put pressure themselves on Helufsholm. I mean one bad apple overturning the whole cart is not good for them.

I am little confused as to the Conservatives being quiet on the issue and the comparison to the more liberal party. Could you give a little more explanation?

In the documentary, was there any type of tangible evidence presented (Ie cell phone footage of incidents, letters written to the school about alleged incidents, formal complaints filed to the school, school board, etc) or was it just a matter of them telling what allegedly occurred. Just curious, because now with a police complaint filed, all those types of documentations may be requested via whatever channels the Danish legal system has in place for such requests. And I agree, this is very pro-active and has slightly changed the tide to put the other side a little on the defensive angle now. Which, is to be expected and any legal team advising the school would not be worth the massive legal fees if they did not take this route.

Yes, there is evidence.
One case of bullying was filmed and the video spread among the pupils. That led to four pupils being suspended. It turns out that the chairman of the board saw the video, which then led to the suspension.
It shouldn't be too difficult to dig up such a video and there is the documentation the school used for the suspension and the minutes from the meeting between the leadership at the school.
And then there are the letters of complaints from the parents to the suspended pupils, who described that that sort of behavior was fairly normal - and indulged - at the school.
So yes, there is something for the police to start working with.

The chairman said that he had hoped that the poor behavior at the school had been stamped out, but then this episode turned up. - And perhaps he believed or chose to believe that himself? If so, he did not live up to his responsibility.

As for the Conservatives. There is no doubt in my mind that among the members and voters of the Conservatives, there are a lot of former pupils of Herlufsholm and parents to present pupils at Herlufsholm. These former pupils will also be among the donors and supporters of the Conservatives.
Way more than in the Liberal party.

The Liberals would be much more inclined to send their children to some of the other boarding schools in DK, if they are to send their children to a boarding school at all. As I said the Liberals represent a very wide spectrum of right wing voters, while the Conservatives represent a much more narrow segment.
The Social Democrats, who are not the least bit adverse to send their own children to private schools, if it suits them, would choose pretty much the same kind of schools as the Liberals.

There is a considerable overlapping among the political parties and their voters in DK.
I'm a liberal myself, but in some cases I very mush support the Social Democrats, in other cases I support the Danish Peoples Party (which is considered extreme right wing, they are not. They are slightly xenophobic and nationalist right-wing Social Democrats or left-wing Liberals.) In some cases I even think the far left Unity List (hardcore Socialists) have a few good points.
I have no problems voting for one party at the national election, while voting for another party for the municipal election, and voting for third party at the EU elections.
And I will consider myself a very normal voter.

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Would it not be more in their interest and in the interest of their children to say that their children have never participated or turned a blind eye to any bullying?

Likewise, in regards to the monarchy and from the little I know of Danish society, I would think that, as many others have stated, it would be the most damaging if Christian, Nikolai, etc. were alleged to be perpetrators of bullying. In comparison, while (hypothetically) being one of the bullying victims would be unpleasant for the royal princes and princesses, I would not expect it to necessarily damage their reputations, and it might even attract sympathy for them from the public.

I think that was more or less implied.
I think you will have to look for a long time, before you find parents who are willing to admit in public that their children took part in bullying.

As for Christian. The laws about the press are strict here, especially in regards to minors.
Any paper will have to think very carefully before even hinting that Christian should have taken part in bullying without clear evidence!
The journalist in question and the editor could end up in prison.

And that's not just because Christian is who he is.
If a paper of magazine claimed or even hinted that a named pupil at Herlufsholm or any other school, was a bully without evidence. They would end up in court. Without evidence this is serious and deliberate slander against a minor. The paper would lose a civil lawsuit hands down, and because they attacked a minor that would be such a serious breach of press ethics that it could very well end up in a prison sentence. Anyway the journalist and editor can certainly expect to lose their jobs.

Apart from that the public would crucify any paper daring to accuse Christian of being a bully without solid evidence.

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Would it not be more in their interest and in the interest of their children to say that their children have never participated or turned a blind eye to any bullying?

Absolutely. But you must remember that a large number of these people who are presented with an overwhelming number of accounts dating back to the 80's and still attempt to convince the broad public that these are "isolated incidents" and not part of a toxic culture ingrained at the school (even though the same events and traditions repeat themselves throughout these horrific stories).

Saying that their children didn't participate in or turn a blind eye to bullying, sexual abuse or violence would imply that it was a thing that happened at the school – just a thing their children weren't involved in. Saying their children haven't experienced it emphasise the narrative that these were "isolated incidents".

[Izzie]

Oh look, yet another BB article using the CPC couple as click bait. Good ol Ulrik and his colleagues are working OT on this angle. It sounds like just a rehash.
https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongelig...-mistaenkelige

I actually wrote to them..in English to complain. It won't make a difference but at least I got it off my chest.

Originally Posted by Muhler

Yes, there is evidence.
One case of bullying was filmed and the video spread among the pupils. That led to four pupils being suspended. It turns out that the chairman of the board saw the video, which then led to the suspension.
It shouldn't be too difficult to dig up such a video and there is the documentation the school used for the suspension and the minutes from the meeting between the leadership at the school.
And then there are the letters of complaints from the parents to the suspended pupils, who described that that sort of behavior was fairly normal - and indulged - at the school.
So yes, there is something for the police to start working with.

The chairman said that he had hoped that the poor behavior at the school had been stamped out, but then this episode turned up. - And perhaps he believed or chose to believe that himself? If so, he did not live up to his responsibility.

As for the Conservatives. There is no doubt in my mind that among the members and voters of the Conservatives, there are a lot of former pupils of Herlufsholm and parents to present pupils at Herlufsholm. These former pupils will also be among the donors and supporters of the Conservatives.
Way more than in the Liberal party.

The Liberals would be much more inclined to send their children to some of the other boarding schools in DK, if they are to send their children to a boarding school at all. As I said the Liberals represent a very wide spectrum of right wing voters, while the Conservatives represent a much more narrow segment.
The Social Democrats, who are not the least bit adverse to send their own children to private schools, if it suits them, would choose pretty much the same kind of schools as the Liberals.

There is a considerable overlapping among the political parties and their voters in DK.
I'm a liberal myself, but in some cases I very mush support the Social Democrats, in other cases I support the Danish Peoples Party (which is considered extreme right wing, they are not. They are slightly xenophobic and nationalist right-wing Social Democrats or left-wing Liberals.) In some cases I even think the far left Unity List (hardcore Socialists) have a few good points.
I have no problems voting for one party at the national election, while voting for another party for the municipal election, and voting for third party at the EU elections.
And I will consider myself a very normal voter.

Thanks for the information Muhler. So the police have a starting point to begin contacting people. I would think that those that spoke in the documentary would have no issue talking to the police given they openly spoke to reporters for a TV show plus turn over whatever tangible addironal evidence they have in their possession.

Do you think that there is a chance that some of the parents claiming these are isolated incidents could pull their kids from the school in some protest to the investigations? Will parents calling put the school for the allegations take their kids out? Or is it all in a holding pattern.

https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/kr...joernesten-der

[Archduchess Zelia]

Originally Posted by Izzie

Oh look, yet another BB article using the CPC couple as click bait. Good ol Ulrik and his colleagues are working OT on this angle. It sounds like just a rehash.
https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongelig...-mistaenkelige

I actually wrote to them..in English to complain. It won't make a difference but at least I got it off my chest.

I applaud you for trying to stop it because I agree, it's hopelessly annoying, but as it's a tool for them to get more page views which brings them more advertising money, I think it's a lost cause.

And it isn't specific for this situation either. Their tagline is "Denmark's royal weekly" and framing every news story through the prism of royalty is BB's modus operandi. They also do it in their physical magazines.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Izzie

Thanks for the information Muhler. So the police have a starting point to begin contacting people. I would think that those that spoke in the documentary would have no issue talking to the police given they openly spoke to reporters for a TV show plus turn over whatever tangible addironal evidence they have in their possession.

Do you think that there is a chance that some of the parents claiming these are isolated incidents could pull their kids from the school in some protest to the investigations? Will parents calling put the school for the allegations take their kids out? Or is it all in a holding pattern.

https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/kr...joernesten-der

I guess.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Muhler

As for Christian. The laws about the press are strict here, especially in regards to minors.
Any paper will have to think very carefully before even hinting that Christian should have taken part in bullying without clear evidence!
The journalist in question and the editor could end up in prison.

And that's not just because Christian is who he is.
If a paper of magazine claimed or even hinted that a named pupil at Herlufsholm or any other school, was a bully without evidence. They would end up in court. Without evidence this is serious and deliberate slander against a minor. The paper would lose a civil lawsuit hands down, and because they attacked a minor that would be such a serious breach of press ethics that it could very well end up in a prison sentence. Anyway the journalist and editor can certainly expect to lose their jobs.

Apart from that the public would crucify any paper daring to accuse Christian of being a bully without solid evidence.

Interesting. What - if anything - would be appraised as clear/solid evidence in the eyes of the law or the public? Would it be treated differently if an adult royal was accused of having taken part in bullying while they were a minor?

Would the same outcome apply to a private individual? To continue with your hypothetical Prince Christian example, if a Herlufsholm student were to tell their friends or write on social media that they had been bullied by classmates including Prince Christian, what consequences would they, or their parents, face?

[Muhler]

Very simple. Evidence that would convince a court. Because that would most likely be where it ended up.

You really have to have to have a clear case if you claim something about a minor!
You May be able to get away with little more if it is an adult. But You May still have to defend your claim in a court. And "sources" is not Evidence.

Parents are ultimately resonsible for their children, so if they post something and You as a parent is informed, You are resonsible for retracting any false claims if the Child is under 15. If over 15 the child can be made responsible but You as a parent May end up footing the Bill.

Example: if your 16 your old child commits a criminal act in a neighborhood, say vandalism and You live in a rented apartment, your family can very well end up being evicted. Happens all the time.

So i imagine the hypothetical classmates would be kicked out of the school, if they do not retract as soon as they are told to.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Muhler

Very simple. Evidence that would convince a court. Because that would most likely be where it ended up.

[...]

So i imagine the hypothetical classmates would be kicked out of the school, if they do not retract as soon as they are told to.

Thank you for the insight. That (especially the quoted sentences) makes it even clearer how very difficult it would be for students to defend themselves against bullying at Herlufsholm.

[Izzie]

Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia

I applaud you for trying to stop it because I agree, it's hopelessly annoying, but as it's a tool for them to get more page views which brings them more advertising money, I think it's a lost cause.

And it isn't specific for this situation either. Their tagline is "Denmark's royal weekly" and framing every news story through the prism of royalty is BB's modus operandi. They also do it in their physical magazines.

If my Google translate is anywhere near accurate, B.T. is even worse with their "articles". Their royal correspondent sounds like a jerk even using sometimes wonky Google translate.

[Muhler]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Thank you for the insight. That (especially the quoted sentences) makes it even clearer how very difficult it would be for students to defend themselves against bullying at Herlufsholm.

Not really.
You go to your teacher or parents.

[Archduchess Zelia]

Except you don't really. At least not if you have any intent on staying at the school. In that case, I think many would say that living with the bullying far outweighs the social repercussions of "telling" on a culturally accepted practice. That'd pretty much get you shunned socially which, for many, would render the stay at a school like Herlufsholm completely pointless. That's also part of why this culture has grown so ingrained.

Originally Posted by Izzie

If my Google translate is anywhere near accurate, B.T. is even worse with their "articles". Their royal correspondent sounds like a jerk even using sometimes wonky Google translate.

Oh, no doubt. (Said correspondent was also the buffoon who waited for M&F to leave at the press seance after Isabella's confirmation to ask her about the "are you completely off?" incident at Christian's confirmation – says a lot not only about his personal agenda but also about him as a person that he deliberately waited to get the 15-year-old on her own to ask her what can easily be perceived as a critical question). But BT is also a rag, so it is to be expected.

[Izzie]

Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia

Except you don't really. At least not if you have any intent on staying at the school. In that case, I think many would say that living with the bullying far outweighs the social repercussions of "telling" on a culturally accepted practice. That'd pretty much get you shunned socially which, for many, would render the stay at a school like Herlufsholm completely pointless. That's also part of why this culture has grown so ingrained.



Oh, no doubt. (Said correspondent was also the buffoon who waited for M&F to leave at the press seance after Isabella's confirmation to ask her about the "are you completely off?" incident at Christian's confirmation – says a lot not only about his personal agenda but also about him as a person that he deliberately waited to get the 15-year-old on her own to ask her what can easily be perceived as a critical question). But BT is also a rag, so it is to be expected.

Oh so definitely an a*hole and sounds like a bully himself tbh.

[Muhler]

Well, well.

The former headmaster at Herlufsholm tells in an interview that Nikolai was suspended for a couple of days for breaching the rules about alcohol on the school. And he got a warning. - At the same time Joachim was informed.
Joachim's reaction was "incredibly positive" says the former headmaster.
https://www.bt.dk/royale/prins-nikol...aa-herlufsholm

The story has been confirmed by Alexandra's secretary.

The royal reporter at BT, who is being discussed in a couple of posts here, express some bewilderment that the former headmaster divulge something that is usually confidential. I.e. what goes on between a school and the pupils there.

- I'm not falling down the chair because Nikolai got a rap over his knuckles. If he breached the rules, he should pay the consequences. And I think most teens have breached a rule or two.
At least he didn't get a suspension for anti-social behavior.

-------------

https://www.berlingske.dk/kommentare...le-herlufsholm
227 present and former pupils at Herlufsholm are defending the school in the conservative newspaper Berlingske. They do not recognize the image presented in the documentary.

- To quote myself, just because you had a good time at Herlufsholm, and you saw no problems regarding bullying there, that does not mean that there wasn't any bullying nor that a few pupils had a terrible time at the school.

[Izzie]

Hope that headmaster does not decide to play a game of "chicken" with the DRF for some bizarre reason. Not sure what his reasoning is behind telling that, especially since it happened while Nikolai was a minor. Unless, another reason is to put out there that no student's business is safe now and won't be protected by the school...if they can snitch on a member of the DRF who went there, they will do it to anyone.

And I can see why students who had no such experiences as those being reported on would feel loyalty to their school. It is normal to want to defend a place that brings up only good memories for you. However, it should also be acknowledged that good and bad experiences can exist/occur simultaneously for different people.

[polyesco]

And as you explained earlier Muhler, experts are saying that Nikolai or parents can sue the headmaster for talking about his "record" when he was a minor
https://www.bt.dk/royale/ekspert-om-...-vinde-retssag

[Muhler]

So can the school.

Breaking the confidentiality about personal information is actually a criminal offense.
It's no different from the confidentiality a social worker or a doctor has in regards to people he/she deals with.

I doubt the DRF will do anything though. In a sense that will perhaps more be seen as a positive thing.
A) That DRF kids can come up with mischief as well - and end up in trouble.
B) That DRF kids can and will be sanctioned if they commit a transgression.

- Anyway, the police has been contacted by more former or present pupils, in regards to bullying at Herlufsholm.
There are no further details so far. The police is unlikely to go into details while an investigation is going on, so unless one of those who went to the police go public, I guess we won't know more, until and if a case is build by the police.

[Izzie]

What in the world does the Royal Run have to do with the school issues?
https://www.avisen.dk/kronprinsens-r...ho_691169.aspx

[Queen Claude]

Originally Posted by Muhler

There certainly are. QMII, Frederik and Joachim attended the private Krebs School and turned out fine.
There are plenty of good schools to choose from.

I disagree on your second point though.
If a school that has a serious history of bullying, I think it's important to support the school when it is committed to make serious changes.
After all with Christian and Isabella there - and the threat of them being pulled out, the incentive for actually making some thorough changes are there!
Because there is a considerable opposition against the reforms by former pupils and their parents as well as some current pupils.
It's an example or: I have no problems, ergo there are no problems.

It's also a part of the elitist thinking: We are special because we do something special.
That is of course a load of bull dust. - There are three things that makes Herlufsholm stand out from other schools in DK:
A) They have a number of weird old traditions, that only serves one purpose; to make the pupils feel special. - In themselves these traditions don't make the pupils higher scoring graduates.
B) The school can afford very good teachers and very good teaching material - but they still have to adhere to the guidelines laid out by the Ministry of Education. - Other schools can and do the same. I.e. providing excellent teaching.
C) It mainly attracts pupils from a certain social strata. - The same as Hellerup High School, which Felix is attending. Or the school M&F's children are attending. - Again, in itself it doesn't turn out higher scoring graduates.

As I see it, a main reason for Christian attending Herlufsholm is that he will be going there with a number of close friends, and among people who comes from a social sphere he will be comfortable with. That is of course a big incentive for a teenager, who will probably experience quite a few things for the first time while there. (Look at Nikolai, he found and had time and peace to cultivate his girlfriend there.) It's also the first time he will be on his own feet, so to speak.
And I can understand his parents: We have a high profile child. Where is there a safe environment to place him during these difficult years of his life? Before he takes the big plunge by being a conscript, then officer before going to the university.
So the creed of: What happens at Herlufsholm, stays at Herlufsholm, also has a positive side as well.

We have to agree to disagree. It is not an absolute that Herlufsholm is committed to making serious changes, and even if your "gut feeling" is that they are serious about making changes, there is no guarantee that they will be successful.

As I mentioned previously, Christian does not need the prestige or connections that come with being an alum of Herlufsholm, at the same time, Herlufsholm, with its long history and active and notable alums, will not collapse if Christian withdraws from the school. It certainly does not bode well if oversight by the DRF is a critical factor in the school making changes, and I hope that is not the case. If I were an advisor to the CPC, I would ask if Herlufsholm is the hill that the future monarchs want to die on. I am not oblivious to Christian having to make a sacrifice for the monarchy / DRF, but as I mentioned earlier, he has to take one for the team, IMO. I have no doubt that there are other schools in Denmark where he can get a great education, and if by chance he does not have a social base there, he will make one. Alternatively, he can spend next year abroad, perhaps at the Swiss school the CPC children attended but their stay was cut short due to the pandemic, there is also that school in Wales that other European royals have / are attending, maybe even going to a boarding school in Australia, or some other choice.

The person who has the most to lose IMO is Crown Princess Mary. It cannot be discounted that she has an anti-bullying platform, and the future Queen is taking quite a risk that her sincerity about that platform will be called into question, not just in the short-term but at any time in the coming years during her tenure as Crown Princess and Queen.

P.S.
How many remaining years does Christian have in secondary school?

[polyesco]

Joachim and Alexandra have released a statement regarding the former headmaster of Herlufsholm talking about Nikolai.

"On Tuesday afternoon, Prince Joachim and Countess Alexandra therefore issued a joint statement:

- As parents of a former student at Herlufsholm, we are - to put it in good Danish - furious to see our son being handed over in public by his former principal, Klaus Eusebius Jakobsen, the parent couple begins before they write:

- He has betrayed his student's trust and confidentiality, and Prince Nikolai's punishment for violating the school's alcohol rules in his time should not be used to shift focus from the serious incidents that have recently come to light."
https://www.seoghoer.dk/kongelige/pr...-vi-er-rasende